WWYD? Really struggling to make a decision.

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yhanni

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Hi, I am a constant lurker but rarely post. I have a 5 year old homebred SpanishNorman mare who is with my daughter for breaking/riding on. However, it has all gone horribly wrong. She is fine on the ground, very affectionate towards humans although always top dog when turned out with others and will stamp on a dog if she can! She is good to walk out, lunge, long rein, with the farrier etc. BUT riding wise, if she is asked to do something which she doesn't want to do, she makes her displeasure known in a very extreme way. She has had my daughter off again today after being asked to move away from the gate which she was napping towards. She bronced down the length of the school and my daughter's feeling was that she would have gone through the end of the school if she hadn't come off before then as her bucking was so violent. Apparently as soon as Ellie was off, the mare came and stood with her. Ellie had a friend there to observe/give her a mini lesson as we wanted some experienced eyes on the ground. Nat's opinion was that Ellie should NOT get on her again but that the mare wasn't frightened at all ..... just didn't want to move away from the gate. This is the third time she has ditched Ellie with no discernible warning. So what to do?

1/ Put her down

2/ Try and find someone to send her to who can stay on her - but I haven't got limitless funds

3/ Sell her as a broodmare - she is a big, well bred 17hh middle/heavyweight and has been seen to cycle regularly but should I consider that breeding from a mare with such a temperament is appropriate . . . although she is good to handle.

4/ Let her go as a project horse and risk her being passed from pillar to post.

I think she could be sorted by someone who has megastickability but my daughter is a good rider and has broken in all our youngstock without any problem. She is devastated of course.

Thanks for reading if you're still with me!
 
Firstly you need to ensure that there is absolutely no issue with her tack and secondly you need someone who is professionally experienced to assess the mare. And go from there.

To consider putting her down seems a little premature to say the least, and selling as a project is such a lottery for any horse.
 
I would get a vet to check her over thoroughly. When an otherwise cooperative horse is difficult under saddle, it is usually, if not always, pain related. Then make a decision based on what the vet says.
 
Ellie is a qualified saddler and saddle fitter so we are reasonably confident that the tack fits. Ellie rode her on the lunge to start with today and the mare was fine in walk and trot, it was only when she was loose and asked to do something that she thought she shouldn't do that she objected. I don't want Ellie to ride her again so I need to find someone who knows what they're doing who would be prepared to get on her! I don't think she is in pain as I think the 'behaviour' would be more consistent if it was. I don't want to put her down either but nor do I want her passed around and have an uncertain future. I can't afford to keep her as a paddock pet as I no longer have my own land so she is in expensive livery! Thank you for your replies.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would get a vet to check her over thoroughly. When an otherwise cooperative horse is difficult under saddle, it is usually, if not always, pain related. Then make a decision based on what the vet says.
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Totally agree with the above- is she napping to the gate in her horsey head to avoid work because it hurts? That would be my thought if she is fine the rest of the time.
 
Not as scary as my one was a 13.2hh, but I had a similar issue, he managed to ditch me numerous times. I just had to ride through it. It helped having his saddle fitted regular and he seemed to calm down.

I suggest getting someone else that is very experienced with difficult horses to try her. Not being offensive OP, but could the horse not be keen on your daughters techniques? It could, she be being brought on too quick? Have you tried lunging with a rider on?

I know someone who had a similar horse that could ditch most riders - it learnt broncing got them off and meant the horse got away with it and got turned back out quicker, so they used a homemade dummy - which also proved to be really helpful teaching this horse.

Personally I think PTS is out of the question - she's not aggressive on the ground so not a danger. I think somewhere out there is someone that can help you,my ou just have to be patient, maybe take back her training a few steps. :) good luck OP!
 
Get in a more experienced saddle fitter and vet. Don't mean to be rude but perhaps your daughter is missing something fresh eyes will spot. And maybe a different rider may just do the trick. It's possible the mare doesn't like your daughter.
 
As the others have said, check for pain first. As she is so good otherwise it would be my first thought. Like most prey animals horses tend to hide their pain and apart from her severe reaction it might not be otherwise noticable.
 
I would get in someone who has experience with 'problem' horses to watch/ride/assess her before you make any definite decisions.
I have similar problems with my New Forest...he is an angel on the ground and a devil to ride...So have an idea of what you are going through.
I sent my boy away to a professional because I lost all confidence with riding him and he managed to get her off 3 times...and tried numerous other times...in the three months he was there. In the end I decided to bring him home and use him as a companion to my youngster as he is just too unpredictable as he would buck on roads as well as in the school.
 
Has she ever been asked to do something she doesn't want to on the lunge or long reins? she may be the type that cooperates until her buttons are pushed then shows her true colours, I have known a few and usually if you can meet them head on while you are on the ground, in other words in a safer place than on top, they may have a tantrum, get over it and it turns them around.
I had one that threw itself on the floor while lunging, totally unprovoked by me, he got up shook himself and never misbehaved again, it is often the "quiet ones" that are holding back until they get pushed, if they can be pushed into something that is going to provoke them but is still a fair question it can allow them to get it out of their system without putting the rider at risk as long as they can keep hold of them on the ground, I like to see a bit of spirit, opinion being expressed before the backing stage it normally means they don't go through it once they are being ridden, often the first buck frightens them and they just panic and keep going until the scary thing is off their back.

I wouldn't give up yet but would go back a step if she tends to nap at the gate long rein her past it and hope she tries it on and the handler can push her through it, if she overreacts then she needs to continue until she is bored and not getting anywhere, she sounds big, bolshy and dare I say it spoilt, she has had a lovely 5 years with doting owners who love her and now needs to learn that stamping on something that annoys her is not acceptable, nor is dumping her rider, if your daughter is not willing or able to keep going then I would invest in a short period of schooling with a real pro who will crack on and give you an opinion within a week or two not take months to decide she is tricky and send her back having achieved nothing.
 
ihatework said:
Reading between the lines - is your daughter in the Oxfordshire area?
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Just worked out who we are talking about!
After a vet check I would suggest/reiterate my previous reccomendation on your trainer post. Ellie knows her. She'll stick on and be able to assess if just young and sharp or if you have a bigger problem.
 
Thank you everybody! I feel better now and I will take it all on board. Definitely another saddler to cast their eyes over her and a pain person - I have to say I haven't been enamoured by the hugely expensive vets in the Henley area!! IHW - I will get Ellie to get that trainer out - I think they had a difference of opinion at some point hence Ellie going with Nat but I will put my foot down with a heavy hand!! Be Positive, she has always been a model pupil on the lunge/long reins and she was going well under saddle until she had Ellie off the first time spooking at something in the woods. I think she then twigged on that if she wanted her off, it was achievable, with a bit of effort!! My feeling about her has always been that she would make a good man's hunter as she would enjoy that life and possibly relate better to a bloke, if that makes sense. She has been spoilt in that she has loafed about in a field for 5 years with her mates and has had little asked of her . . . until now! Perhaps we have taken things too quickly considering the change in her environment etc. Thanks again - I was feeling quite despondent.
 
Vet work up and then if that's clear send to a pro

We were doing that with our wb mare who actually sounds exactly like yours. Would nap then bronc, Buck or rear, after the third time I though it was us doing something wrong so vet checked before.being sent off but didn't get psst the vet work up.

She had four processes fused in her back and another four just behind them touching. She wasn't a candidate for the op si she was retired.
We had her pts yesterday with stifle arthritis
 
I would never consider pts without a ' problem with performance 'type work up from a vet working in conjunction with a acpat type physio.
But this does sound like a typical stroppy dominant homebred .
So I would try the following from now withdraw all affection no cuddles games chats etc spend as little time with her as you can just handle her as she would be handled on a big yard looking after her as a job.
You must have zero tolerance of any bad manners and of her coming into your space without permission .
Turn her out in a small paddock alone .Fed the nothing or the minimum to get by .
If at all possible lead her from another horse and ride her and lunge her every day .
You will have to be clever to keep her very busy without doing to much hard work remember it's her brain not her body you need to get charge of .
I bred one difficult youngster she turned out to be carrying KS so don't discount something nasty like this .
I bought a bottle fed homebred behaving very like yours she turned into one of the best hunters we ever owned .
I always sent my hombreds away for riding away I would get her away to a suitable pro for a while .
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would get a vet to check her over thoroughly. When an otherwise cooperative horse is difficult under saddle, it is usually, if not always, pain related. Then make a decision based on what the vet says.
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VET!!!

My last mare was like this. Dominant, bloshy, out of nowhere under saddle she would just do a full blown rodeo display until she got me off.

She had a slipped disk in her spine, so her napping/bucking was all pain related.

I would always, always always get a vet out for this behaviour now.
 
I think you might have to send her to be properly broken. Schooling livery doesn't have to break the bank - could she stay out 24/7? You may be able to work some off doing stable duties etc, or if she goes for sales livery you could pay out of what you sell her for. As others have said, it's difficult to be objective with your own horses, especially homebreds!! We do let them get away with more!! :p

I think selling her as a project is risky. The issue is that unscrupulous people look for cheap horses like this and either lie/drug them to resell and make a profit, or send them for meat. If you do sell her, make sure you ask more than her meat price, and make sure to get references for any viewers. Perhaps get in touch with her breed society?

The dummy idea is a good one. I would try this! Also is she ok with leg aids etc? Being lunged with a rider on? Being led by another horse? I think at this stage you just need to take a few steps back. Napping is rooted in a lack of confidence, rational or not!

I also agree that vet is a good idea. Is she insured?
 
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I certainly would not sell this horse. First port of call would be the vet, if she got a clean bill of health she'd go to a breakers yard (turn her out and save up if necessary) and if that didn't work I'd be thinking pts. There is no way I'd sell a horse that had the potential to seriously injure someone.
 
Sounds rather like my friend's youngster which we are in the process of backing. Absolutely no trouble until she is asked to do something she doesn't want to do and then she went into full on napping / broncing mode (usually when asked to walk past the school gate). Full vet check up revealed no issues. We did hear the other day though that this stallion's youngsters are well known for being tricky to back (this from their previous head girl).

We are working around it by taking things very, very slowly and also trying to hit all the problems when she is on the lunge/long reins as I agree with be positive in not wanting to have the problem under saddle if it can be resolved from the ground.
 
I just thought I'd let you know what happened with this mare as I had some really useful advice from you guys.

We had her checked by a vet and her saddle checked by one of Ellie's mentors and then I sent her to a 'boot camp'. She was sorted very quickly, much to daughter's relief as the work she had done with her had obviously been correct enough until the mare decided she didn't want to play ball! Within a week, she was jumping and hacking out in company. After a couple of months we put her up for sale and the Metropolitan police took her on trial. Unfortunately she was too anxious in heavy traffic for them and returned after 8 weeks. Ellie is now riding her regularly, having lessons and hacking her out alone and in company. She is still a quirky mare but very talented and she and Ellie are about to move to the West Midlands. Ellie now doesn't want to sell her of course but it is still my cunning plan! However I'll wait until the Autumn and she can go cubbing and then we'll see. Thank you all so much for your support x
 
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