WWYD? Vet and botched euthanasia

OP, I was so sorry to read about your experience, it sounded horrific. I have had a dispute with my vets this year over what I strongly believe to be negligence (not testing a scouring foal for a week, after which she ended up in Leahurst and I lost her).

I have made a complaint to the RCVS and along the way have discovered that they do not intervene in fee disputes so the question of payment or non-payment of the bill is a separate issue. Amazingly, they also do not deal with cases of negligence (!) so be very careful how you word your complaint. Read the RCVS website and complaints procedure carefully to see what they do and don't cover.

In my case, I spoke to an equine solicitor who said I had a decent case, but they would not take anything on a no-win no-fee basis for under £5k damages. The damages wouldn't have amounted to this, and having just paid £1.5k to Leahurst (with whom I had no beef whatsoever) the pot was too empty to consider legal action that I may not win.

I discussed my foal's case in detail with the attending practice. I was disgusted with their response; where their behaviour was indefensible they simply lied. Unfortunately I can't prove this. When they threatened me with the debt collectors I felt I had little choice but to settle the bill but have filed a very detailed complaint nonetheless with the RCVS. All I want is a little accountability and even an apology would have gone a long way. Having read the website, I doubt anything much will happen, but I do want to make my feelings clear and force someone to look into this. I think the younger vets in the practice will think twice given the savage letters I've sent them and I make no apology.

At the end of the day, I'd say please don't pursue anything if it's going to have the effect of actually making you feel worse. Only you can know where that line is, but I think there comes a time when, having released the anger, you have to let it go and move on.
 
I'm sorry Nudibranch but I am with Amymay on this. Your situation was horrific, but it does not necessarily mean that the vet was incompetent. My vets do not carry a gun to routine PTS appointments. Some horses do not react as planned to the injection. I recall your vet told you he could not give her anything else for fear of making things even worse?

Even if there was incompetence, I don't see any chance that you will prove it, and all you will do is spend lots of money and be in an even worse situation.

Please try to put it behind you and enjoy Christmas and look ahead to a better New Year.

So sorry :(
 
I would always choose a gun over injection. But in this position I wouldn't want a horse with complications left with me while the vet disappeared. Yes some horses have a bad reaction, but it's not the rarest thing in the world and for the horse to then be left a further 40 mins with vet going would be my upset. Calling out an emergency pts would be quicker than that :(
 
PandorasJar said:
for the horse to then be left a further 40 mins with vet going would be my upset. Calling out an emergency pts would be quicker than that :(
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We don't know where she lives. An emergency callout from my nearest vet would take 40 minutes to reach me if they ran to the car when they put down the phone. In the evening, as I think this was, the on call vet can live over an hour away.
 
Having read the original thread I do not think this was a case of the horse 'fighting' the lethal injection. It definitely has all the signs of veterinary error. Both myself and my mum have had numerous horse (double figures) PTS by injection and we have never had any of them 'fight' it, all have gone very quickly and peacefully. I'm not doubting that some go quicker than others and we may have always been very lucky. However, I do not believe it is possible for a horse to 'fight' the jab to anywhere near the extent the OP's horse did.

Our vets give even a small pony a full bottle into the canuala, even though this is excessive their view is you cannot 'overdose' and they like to err on the side of caution. In my view in this instance either an insufficient dose was administered or the canula was not properly in the vein.

OP I would state your intention to the vets that if you concern is not dealt with then you will be taking the matter further. They should be taking your complaint very seriously and not trying to sweep it under the carpet. PTS is always the most difficult thing an owner can do even when it does go smoothly. You and your mare should not have had to go through what you did.
 
PandorasJar said:
We know it took vet 20 mins to drive back, so not that far.
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We don't know where the on-call vet was, or whether this WAS the on-call vet.

The situation was horrific but I don't think the timings were unreasonable, even though it must have felt like a lifetime to the owner :(
 
I had a pony PTS with injection years ago and the vet (a young girl) couldn't do it, she couldn't get the needle in a woolly coated pony whos circulation was collapsing. Eventually after a lot of upset she called her boss and after another hour and a half he turned up and did it.
I was appalled, the pony had suffered needlessly. (She didn't have a firearms license so no humane killer, pony had colic).
When the bill came I deducted £100 and paid the rest. The senior vet rang me and said 'But I already gave you a reduction, I didn't charge you for my call out as well as the original attending vet.'. I was spiiting bricks but did eventually have to pay the whole amount, I did change vets but it was the inadmission that anything was unacceptable that got me.
I read your original thread and was so sorry to hear what happened. Good luck and I would definately complain to RCVS.
 
Goldenstar said:
My vets don't carry the gun unless they are going to use it.
My first horse was injected it was so not what I had been told to expect the horse fought and fought to stay on its feet and went down with a terrible unearthly distressed Whiny it was quite awful and although I have seen others that where fine I would never allow one of my own to be anything except shot.
I asked my vet why they don't carry the gun and I think it's because it's only supposed to be carried from the surgery used and staight back and they don't take it out the surgery unless they are going to use it as then it not there for emergency and of course security.
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If I remember correctly though the OP specifically requested that the horse be shot. Personally if it was me I would have sent the vet back to get the gun instead of them injecting in the first place.
 
Vets botched mine up too. Was the worst thing ever and I felt so awful. Massive hugs not a nice experience when it go's well. My practise manager waived all fees as they should have done x
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
If I remember correctly though the OP specifically requested that the horse be shot. Personally if it was me I would have sent the vet back to get the gun instead of them injecting in the first place.
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the OP stated that she said it may be PTS which is lethal injection if thats what you request unless you state shot. this is because so mant people prefer the injection to the gun. the vast majority of vets do not have a gun liscense, where i work only one of 7 vets does and he is the only one liscensed to carry it too. the equine vets nearest to my yard have 5 vets are none have a gun liscense, most horses that are shot are done by the hunt.

terrible situation for OP and i can see why it has disturbed you but i dont see the botch, as they say medicine is not an exact science. no-one can predict the power/reaction that an individual can have to any given drug
 
Lovescobs said:
i would have thought that as vets are aware the injection does not work well for all horses the policy should be that they have the back up gun with them as standard. this is where the mistake occured.
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One vet who I have discussed this with at length, who has used both methods (and for whom I signed a firearms licence form for renewal this very morning), has told me that there is no way a horse can avoid the effects of an overdose of barbiturate anaesthetic unless the injection was done incorrectly (e.g. missing the vein), the drug was 'off' (highly unlikely, but possible if it isn't kept refrigerated), and/or the wrong dose was given. Yet horror stories of horses 'fighting the injection' abound. It is this vet's opinion that in most cases it is the movements of the horse's limbs after the horse was effectively unconscious that are interpreted as 'fighting' or 'struggling', but that this really shouldn't happen if the vet has discussed the possibility of such movements with the client beforehand.
 
fburton said:
One vet who I have discussed this with at length, who has used both methods (and for whom I signed a firearms licence form for renewal this very morning), has told me that there is no way a horse can avoid the effects of an overdose of barbiturate anaesthetic unless the injection was done incorrectly (e.g. missing the vein), the drug was 'off' (highly unlikely, but possible if it isn't kept refrigerated), and/or the wrong dose was given. Yet horror stories of horses 'fighting the injection' abound. It is this vet's opinion that in most cases it is the movements of the horse's limbs after the horse was effectively unconscious that are interpreted as 'fighting' or 'struggling', but that this really shouldn't happen if the vet has discussed the possibility of such movements with the client beforehand.
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The one I saw the horse that was not nice the horse was definatly conscious and the vet aggree it was it was on its feet for a start struggling to stay up.
It was not many minutes through perhaps three long enough when you are watching especially when you where expecting the horse to sink gently to the ground .
 
Interesting but even more worrying that it goes wrong in straight forward cases (ie where veins are not difficult to find) then. I'd rather a vet delayed to do it properly if unsure than delayed after the injection.
 
Goldenstar said:
The one I saw the horse that was not nice the horse was definatly conscious and the vet aggree it was it was on its feet for a start struggling to stay up.
It was not many minutes through perhaps three long enough when you are watching especially when you where expecting the horse to sink gently to the ground .
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No indeed, GS - that would have been profoundly distressing I imagine. :(

It would be good to have statistics on euthanasias where something went wrong, either shooting or injection, and the causes in detail. That would give clients more solid information on which to base their choices. Sadly, I don't think such data has been collected.
 
If I remember rightly the OP did want the Horse shot. However the vet did not have this with her and persueded the OP the injection would be better anyway. Its very easy to say "I would have done this..." but I'm the sure the OP regrets her decision enough. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and OP was losing a lifetime friend, she probably wasn't in the right frame of mind. Afterall we are supposed to trust our vets.
 
I know of several of both going wrong and because of this I will only choose shooting and have a list of people who can take that shot that I completely trust to wait rather than rush and miss. Even in an emergency I know people who would not be allowed to go near my horse.
 
PJ I agree - I think the knackerman (who's day job is using the gun appropriately) is much more experienced and therefore confident/ accurate than any vet could be who (thankfully) only has to use a gun once in a while.

OP very sad for you - if your complaint can get better procedures/ training for the vets in the future that can only be for the good of other horses in your local area.
 
LaurenBay said:
If I remember rightly the OP did want the Horse shot. However the vet did not have this with her and persueded the OP the injection would be better anyway. Its very easy to say "I would have done this..." but I'm the sure the OP regrets her decision enough. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and OP was losing a lifetime friend, she probably wasn't in the right frame of mind. Afterall we are supposed to trust our vets.
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I appreciate that, which is why when asked specifically to shoot a horse the vet was wrong to arrive with no gun - especially if they have the correct licencing to use it and it was a planned euthanasia.
 
Personally I would write back to the practise recorded delivery and state that under the circumstances you feel that as it was such a botched job you are not prepared to pay more than 25% of the account.
Then state that should they not come to an agreement about this you will be taking it further.

I had a parallel incident with a dog. She had been sick all night and I felt that her liver had packed in. I said as much at the vets and he said that it couldn't happen that fast unless she had got hold of poison.
He said that he would give her a jab to stop the vomiting and take a blood test.
The blood was a rusty colour and I remarked that that in itself was a sign of liver failure.
I was told that venal blood was always darker than arterial, to which I remarked - yes but it is still red!

The blood test showed that her liver had failed. I had her PTS and collected the bill. I asked for a breakdown.
£60 was for diagnosis and I refused to pay it. The diagnosis was totally wrong, I had told him what I thought was wrong and there was no way she had got hold of any rat poison.
I took it to one of the partners, paid for euthanasia and the blood test and that was all.

I have held many horses when they were euthanised majority from a humane killer delivered by one of the hunt staff or knackerman.
The number would be well into the hundred and the only time I have ever seen it bodged was always by vets. That is not al all pleasant whether a miss placed shot or the needle.
 
I go on the vet's say so. I held two of a friend's horses last year for injections by two vets. I asked each one, if this was your horse, would you do this or have it shot and they both said that they would have it shot.
 
ChristmasPTrees said:
I go on the vet's say so. I held two of a friend's horses last year for injections by two vets. I asked each one, if this was your horse, would you do this or have it shot and they both said that they would have it shot.
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Again, it would be interesting to find out how many vets preferred x or y. The handful of equine vets I have spoken with about this favour injection - go figure!
 
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