WWYD with this horse?

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Zipzop

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I have sought advice re this but just wanted to ask in a different way in case anyone can shed some light on things.

Brief history, he is 12/13 years old and has always been very sharp.
He is section d and I've had him for nine years.
We have done various things over the years, little bit of jumping etc (he was only just about manageable) we then retrained classical.

The classical training showed up many problems, mostly that he really runs away from using his hind end and anything new or difficult which asks him to improve his self carriage terrifies him. (We were having regular lessons over many years which did show improvement but we have never got beyond a trot in YEARS)

He is not confident hacking out so some days he can be ok and other days he is a nightmare. He is even worse in company and I end up hanging on for dear life.

He is pain free, bitless, (now, but we spent years trying with different bits too) unshod, saddle correctly fitted, he has regular body work, we have tried many feeding regimes, supplements over the years and have found a regime which seems to suit him. He is happy where he lives on a quiet little yard.

I really feel like I have tried everything to get somewhere with him, I love him dearly and will always keep him but what can I do?
He doesn't enjoy hacking and schooling makes him extremely anxious in anything other than a walk.

I have not had 'fun' or enjoyed riding in so long - the way things are it's no fun at all :(

Any advice or ideas would be appreciated
 
Goodness. If you have tried and done all the things you say then I would be inclined to retire him and buy another who you can ride and enjoy. Doesn't sound as if either of you is having much fun at the moment. Hugs x
 
Tobiano said:
Goodness. If you have tried and done all the things you say then I would be inclined to retire him and buy another who you can ride and enjoy. Doesn't sound as if either of you is having much fun at the moment. Hugs x
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Thank you Tobiano. I have been thinking this just lately. I just have no idea what is left to do to help him :( so sad he is my horsey soulmate
 
He is pain free in as much as he has regular chiro, physio, shiatsu, saddle checks, teeth checks, everything checks!

Is there anything I'm missing that a vet could check?
 
Zipzop said:
He is pain free in as much as he has regular chiro, physio, shiatsu, saddle checks, teeth checks, everything checks!

Is there anything I'm missing that a vet could check?
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I would definitely get a vet involved- some of those issues could be things like ulcers or skeletal issues causing pain (such as kissing spines which can only be diagnosed via x-ray?). I hope that's not too alarmist, just based on my own recent experiences. I hope whatever it is can be treated. :-)
 
Zipzop said:
He is pain free in as much as he has regular chiro, physio, shiatsu, saddle checks, teeth checks, everything checks!

Is there anything I'm missing that a vet could check?
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They can not tell if a horse has ulcers, kissing spines, sacroiliac problems, problems with his eyes.

Having a full lameness work up, including back X-rays, looking at his hind end if he runs away from using it as that is to me a big shout of pain.

I had a chiro and massage lady out to my wb six monthly and she always said she was fine, bit tense over back but long and low should help.......after she decked my sister for the umpteenth time we were going to send her away to a pro but I wanted my vet to look at her first just in case she always decked her when we asked for self carriage and to start to use her topline and work from behind...she had at the time, three years ago, four fully fused spinal processes under where the cantal (sp) of ten saddle sits and four behind it starting to touch.

Physio and chiro etc had no idea that was there.

So my advice would be full vet work up including paying attention to. His back, hind end.
 
It sounds pain related to me and similar but more extreme than my horse was before he was diagnosed with a SI injury that had been missed by several vets including a hospital workup.
I put him on a bute trial and he was a different horse in his attitude the only problem was he then showed lame in front which meant the SI was still not investigated, he is now 12 months on from treatment and having been taken very slowly had his first short session in the school today and was totally happy to trot I am just hoping that we can at last start to get somewhere.
 
A friend had a horse exactly the same - even down to the breed. I'm afraid she just retired him to the field.
 
I would get him properly worked up as well .
I would get a basic work up of trot ups lunging on the hard and soft flexion tests and see what that throws up .
Having said that D's can be very very difficult to train and some struggle to canter well he might just be not very trainable .
 
I know I say this on most threads where horses behave oddly, but I shall say it again, have you tried taking the horses diet back to hay and grass only? We has a WelshDxTb, bought as a rising four year ol, the sweetest, nicest natured most sensible young mare you could wish for, a beautiful bay roan. We knew that she had been kept short of food by one owner and then fed up quickly by the person we bought her from. She gradually got more and more reactive, particularly to noise and after an episode where she nearly threw herself under a vehicle, we decided not to ride her on the road any longer. She then became progressivly more dangerous to handle when bringing in in the evening. It eventually reached the point, when she was 12, where pts was becoming the only choice. At the same time she developed a cough and I happened to read an article about a horse who was lame and coughing and the owner removed sugar from the diet, which resolved the isues. In an attempt to stop the cough and make her last few weeks more comfortable, we stopped all sugar. She then went into withdrawl for three days, (in hindsight we would have gradually reduced sugar rather than abruptly stopped it). She then became much easier to handle and her good nature restored itself. We later stopped all cereal as well, she wasn't however ridden again as on a livery yard we could not be certain that she hadn't been fed by others and one polo was enough to set her off again. We also think that the length of time she had been intolerant had led to some permenant brain damage. She always had issues with controling her own temperature, shivering when others were ok and suffering in the heat. We kept her until she died of what appeared to be a stroke aged 24. As a side issue, because of knowing the effect on the horse, I have used that knowlege with people and know one who had picca as a result of food intlerances, to the extent that she ate razor blades and another who became psychotic, once the foods they were susesceptible to were removed from their diet they recovered. I know always analyse what is going into an animal, to see if that may be the cause of the problems. The easiest way is t go back to grass and hay for horses.
 
YorksG said:
I know I say this on most threads where horses behave oddly, but I shall say it again, have you tried taking the horses diet back to hay and grass only? We has a WelshDxTb, bought as a rising four year ol, the sweetest, nicest natured most sensible young mare you could wish for, a beautiful bay roan. We knew that she had been kept short of food by one owner and then fed up quickly by the person we bought her from. She gradually got more and more reactive, particularly to noise and after an episode where she nearly threw herself under a vehicle, we decided not to ride her on the road any longer. She then became progressivly more dangerous to handle when bringing in in the evening. It eventually reached the point, when she was 12, where pts was becoming the only choice. At the same time she developed a cough and I happened to read an article about a horse who was lame and coughing and the owner removed sugar from the diet, which resolved the isues. In an attempt to stop the cough and make her last few weeks more comfortable, we stopped all sugar. She then went into withdrawl for three days, (in hindsight we would have gradually reduced sugar rather than abruptly stopped it). She then became much easier to handle and her good nature restored itself. We later stopped all cereal as well, she wasn't however ridden again as on a livery yard we could not be certain that she hadn't been fed by others and one polo was enough to set her off again. We also think that the length of time she had been intolerant had led to some permenant brain damage. She always had issues with controling her own temperature, shivering when others were ok and suffering in the heat. We kept her until she died of what appeared to be a stroke aged 24. As a side issue, because of knowing the effect on the horse, I have used that knowlege with people and know one who had picca as a result of food intlerances, to the extent that she ate razor blades and another who became psychotic, once the foods they were susesceptible to were removed from their diet they recovered. I know always analyse what is going into an animal, to see if that may be the cause of the problems. The easiest way is t go back to grass and hay for horses.
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Thank you for this. He has always been fed a 'natural' diet, I don't go for all the really processed stuff. At the moment he is on grass/hay ad lib. His bucket feed consists of literally a mug of Supacool Copra split between two feeds and supplements are seaweed, immuplus, hydrobase and cider vinegar. He has been on this for a couple of years and prior to this he was on carob instead of copra.
 
Second those who say vet, even if the result is the same, at least you will know you have explored everything fully.

I'd just like to paraphrase something I heard at work recently:

"I've had the saddler out, physio out and chiro out but my horse still isn't working properly. He is not doing X, Y or Z when asked, but my Coach, who is a BSHI, says she says she can spot a lame horse across two fields and Shnuffles definitely isn't lame!"

Stuck horse on the lunge and low and behold, hindlimb lameness. Just a word of warning that however qualified they may be they may not be the best at assessing lameness!!!
 
After you've had a good vet work up I would just retire him to grass if that is an option for you. It doesn't sound like he enjoys being ridden and you certainly don't enjoy riding him. What is he like with other riders?
 
I had a mare with KS. The physio and chiro said she was fine, no pain or tension in the back whatsoever. So I agree with the others, get the vet to do a full lameness workup and back x-rays.
 
Zipzop said:
Thank you for this. He has always been fed a 'natural' diet, I don't go for all the really processed stuff. At the moment he is on grass/hay ad lib. His bucket feed consists of literally a mug of Supacool Copra split between two feeds and supplements are seaweed, immuplus, hydrobase and cider vinegar. He has been on this for a couple of years and prior to this he was on carob instead of copra.
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As the co-owner od YorksG's horse, I second what she suggested. Take the feed back to hay/grass and NOTHING else. The supplements you talk about have a variety of ingredients and it only takes one to cause a problem. It won't take long to find out if it is the feed that is causing the problem - and how easy it is to deal with!

As for the CV, if he does happen to have ulcers as someone else suggested, that will be irritating them, as it will add to the acid in his stomach.
 
Apercrumbie said:
After you've had a good vet work up I would just retire him to grass if that is an option for you. It doesn't sound like he enjoys being ridden and you certainly don't enjoy riding him. What is he like with other riders?
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He is even more terrified with others riders. My instructor got on him on a couple of occasions and she said he felt really frightened and unsure. I guess he knows me really well but with other riders he doesn't know what's coming.

I don't feel nervous riding him and I just stay calm and wait for him to settle down if he can.

Yes tried mag ox, the hydrobase he is on is a potassium, magnesium supplement which has improved him a lot. If I add extra mag ox I don't really notice a difference.
 
I know this is a really difficult question to ask yourself but if he has had a full vet work up and there is nothing wrong with him, could it be that perhaps you are just not the right horse and rider combination. Even top professional riders will sometimes come across a horse that they can't get on with and when ridden by someone else it is fine and that someone else may not be a classically better rider than them, if that makes sense.

It sounds like neither you nor the horse are happy with the situation as it is. If you have had this horse since the age of four and have made no progress in 9 years and you are not having fun then it might be you or your instructors training methods are just not suitable for this horse. I am no expert but what I have seen over the years is how horses behaviour can really change with different routines, handling and people. I think it is very easy to label a horse as "difficult" when the management may just not be suitable for that individual.

I am just wondering if you have not tried this before and if your horse has been checked by the vet, before you give up and retire it to the field if you can try sending the horse to someone else to get it evaluated. Perhaps someone who is very familiar with the breed or perhaps someone who has a different style of riding/training than you do. If sounds like you are an open minded person otherwise you would not have come on here asking for advice so might be worth a try?

I too have a native pony and know they can be clever and sensitive ponies which can sometimes exhibit in challenging behaviour in some circumstances.
 
Zipzop said:
He is even more terrified with others riders. My instructor got on him on a couple of occasions and she said he felt really frightened and unsure. I guess he knows me really well but with other riders he doesn't know what's coming.

I don't feel nervous riding him and I just stay calm and wait for him to settle down if he can.

Yes tried mag ox, the hydrobase he is on is a potassium, magnesium supplement which has improved him a lot. If I add extra mag ox I don't really notice a difference.
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This would push me even further towards the idea of there being some form of imbalance/intolerance. The fear/nervous behaviour fits. One person I worked with became psychotic when she had any caffine, one cup of coffee could lead to an admission under the MHA. One polo mint would set our mare off, it may not be the case for your horse, but what have you and he got to loose by trying it. I do mean NOTHING but grass and hay, no treats, no bit of carrot, nothing for three weeks, then gradually, one at a time, introduce SINGLE ingredients and keep a record of when you add what. Since the abve mare, we have become much more aware of horses (and peoples) reactions to food. Sisters draught mare has scaring from old "mud fever" episodes, from before we got her, she had an awful flare up this winter, just after we had made a change to her feed, she now has nothing with wheat in it, her legs are scab free, which must be the first time since she has been an adult.
 
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