WWYD with this "pity buy" horse

Caracarrie said:
I'd be concerned that if she was previously being used as a broodmare and then was sold, it was because something went wrong and she can't be bred again. I used to know not one but two mares on the same yard that fell into this category. One was bred to breed as she had excellent blood lines. That one was broken in at 7 and the last I heard had gone jumping. The other was used as a general riding horse until she was pts.
Click to expand...

Any decent equine breeding vet could very quick tell if there WAS a problem. It might have been something that stopped her short-term. I had a mare bleed into the broad ligament - nearly died. She had a massive haematome in the vagina - and had a year off. Then the vet examined her again and she was fine - never had a problem since. But some breeders wouldn't take the risk - or the time - for a second chance.

Horses whose names are in black type are stakes winners or stakes placed. A horse who is bold and black is one who has one a Grade I race. For older horses who weren't born when there were Grade I races, the bold black type is used to denote horses who won important races in their day...or Grade I equivilents.
 
stormox said:
NOTE Janet I said usually, not always. Some very good horses have been produced by heavier stations on light mares, I knew a chap who used his shire stallion on TB mares to produce show hunters.
Click to expand...


I confess I wouldn't use a Shire on a TB. (He'd SQUASH her, lol) But most Irish Draughts have quite a bit of TB - and not too far back - so the foal won't be HUGE (unless the mare is over-fed, of course.)
 
Peter7917 said:
Get her back under saddle and see if she will be suitable to do another job.

If that fails put her to a nice native stallion. Love a nice forest x tb mmmmmm ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, but that's another foal "for the sake of it" surely? Breeding because it is the only use the horse will have is no reason to do it. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And would you stop at just one, or keep her earning her keep every year?
 
Caracarrie said:
Yes, but that's another foal "for the sake of it" surely? Breeding because it is the only use the horse will have is no reason to do it. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And would you stop at just one, or keep her earning her keep every year?
Click to expand...

This, and what AA said re quarantine.
 
Well done you for taking on a horse with an uncertain future

Maybe carry on with the rehab and see how she takes to riding

Personally I love TBs and my next horse will be an ex racer
 
stormox said:
Confused here- the horse you have is the horse on her passport (presumably weatherbys) but isnt the horse that was in training?
If you have her passported name you can look her up, you can see whether she was any good as a racehorse. Basically unless a horse has black type she wouldnt be of much value as a broodmare..
And yes she could be used to produce sporthorses but it is usually better to put a TB stallion on a heavier mare.
Why not get her into good condition (assuming shes sound) and either ride her, or sell her as a riding horse if she rides well?
Click to expand...

Not always the case. Two Olympic Show jumpers and a winner of Burley were the progeny of TB mares put to Cleveland Bay stallions.
 
If she was any way decent as a broodmare, she would still be doing it i'd imagine. Not saying the OP is planning to do it, but isn't there enough average horses being bred from without adding to the number. The horse hasn't shown any outstanding qualities that would justify breeding from and if it has physical issues somewhere, then thats a big minus too.

Exracers can be lovely, but they can also also be vet magnets and money pits. It's a lovely thing you did, and hopefully the horse can be useful after a bit of tlc and some basic checks. But if I was you I'd write down a certain amount of money i'm willing to spend on it, and make sure you draw a line you won't go over. It's very easy to just keep getting another physio, another osteo, a different saddle, special shoeing etc. I had a lovely exracer but in hindsight, i knew in my gut he had issues a few months after i got him and i could have saved myself a lot of heartache and money if i'd made the right decision sooner.

Hopefully you can feed upm, and the sit on and have a lovely horse. But have a plan b.
 
There are very nice sport horses being bred from TB mares. The main thing is that she doesn't have a problem reproduction wise and that she's a nice, well put together mare.

Why would you think of Pts, give her a chance at life surely. It shouldn't be that hard to find a good stud that would take her. You would have no problem here in Ireland but then much more horses are bred here. She would be perfect to cross with a Connie for a nice blood Connie for instance.

This is a good time of year, why don't you approach some sport horse studs and ask them. If she really is a rescue then the money won't be a big factor for you. Nobody will pay a lot for a mare like that because they can be bought for meat money.

Worth approaching some good Irish studs too, if you were happy to let her go and they just pay the transport I'm sure you could find a good home for her. If you're serious I know of people breeding Connie X TBs who might be interested. She would have to be nice though and not have reproductive problems.
 
For me a lot would depend on how she was to handle. What was she like when in training? Most flat horses leave training at the end of their 3 year old career, unless they show that they are worth keeping in training. That said, if she had won races, that is then when she would be shipped off to stud as a usual rule.
I would always check for ulcers, and have basic checks done on top, and then start working with her. If she is a nice person, there is no reason why she couldn't make a good riding horse, even if she was a bit bonkers in training, as it is very different when they are turned out and fed differently!
 
Frumpoon said:
Sorry to be thick but what is black type?
Click to expand...

Racing in the UK, and internationally, is graded, so horses run in races with others of a similar ability, a Derby entry would never ever be expected to run in a seller for example. Certain races, for the best horses are Group Races, and when the horse is placed in these good races they get "black type", ie when the pedigree is printed, the lettering is black type.
A trainer will often run a filly in order to gain black type, and thus prove her value as a TB broodmare.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
To give her the best chance at a good life she needs assessed under saddle then got out and about to prove she's worth having. She could be a really great quick learner or she could be a head case in which case, it will be an easy decision.

We have a pity buy who is a real superstar but he's still going to need a year of work and experiences with us before I can sell him on knowing he's set up for life, and he's a sensible native type.

Ideally you can do some work with her then loan her out. Just depends how much hassle you want but I would rather pts than sell her as a broodmare for the reasons others have stated.
 
She's lucky you've rescued her. :)

But don't make her a broodmare unless she's got good conformation and temperament. There's too much breeding as the mare 'can't do anything else' going on in this world
 
TheMule said:
1 unwanted mare + foal = 2 unwanted horses, surely that makes the problem worse?!
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. I have only bred from 2 TB mares (1 unwanted and 1 dumped upon me for the same reason) but they both were good brood mares and I never had any trouble selling their foals. The vast majority of the foals (by my Irish Draught stallion) are still in the same home I sold them to and happy owners keep me up to date, 6-8 years later!
 
One of the most prevalent and unfounded beliefs on this forum seems to be that people should not breed horses as they are just creating unwanted rescues. It is verging on the ludicrous to be frank.

If we all stopped breeding horses here in Ireland where would all the future sport horses come from that will one day doubtless be owned by people on this forum?!

Tbs make excellent brood mares for this purpose. Sold a lovely eventer to the UK recently out of a TB and by Russel. Am currently selling his younger brother - a more beautiful event type you will not find and an absolute lamb. Friend has a colt by Balou du Rouet out of a tb, he's so nice he's keeping him entire.

Where does everyone think the blood comes from that's so desirable today in jumpers and eventers...
 
TB blood in sportshorses is most useful if it is A. selected by people who know what they're doing & know the TB bloodlines that are producing the sort of athleticism that suits modern competitive sport, and B. is introduced via the WB approved sires; either through high-TB% or approved TB stallions that are graded into the stud books. Breeding out of "throw away" mares is precisely why there are too many unsuitable, unsaleable, untrained, unwanted horses out there in the market (and this includes here in Ireland, BTW).
 
Irish gal said:
One of the most prevalent and unfounded beliefs on this forum seems to be that people should not breed horses as they are just creating unwanted rescues. It is verging on the ludicrous to be frank.

If we all stopped breeding horses here in Ireland where would all the future sport horses come from that will one day doubtless be owned by people on this forum?!

Tbs make excellent brood mares for this purpose. Sold a lovely eventer to the UK recently out of a TB and by Russel. Am currently selling his younger brother - a more beautiful event type you will not find and an absolute lamb. Friend has a colt by Balou du Rouet out of a tb, he's so nice he's keeping him entire.

Where does everyone think the blood comes from that's so desirable today in jumpers and eventers...
Click to expand...

Somewhat of an exaggeration!

I'm talking about "backyard" breeders who think their mare is the most beautiful thing on planet earth and have it covered by the stallion of a friend of a friend because it was local and cheap, or the mare is injured and unrideable so the best thing is to let it have a foal or two to give it something to do in its retirement. Hands up who doesn't know someone who has allowed their bitch to have a litter "so that she can experience motherhood" and then realised that they can get £200 per puppy, nice little earner, so the bitch has another litter or two?
Let the people who have the facilities, time and experience produce tomorrow's generation, whatever the species. They don't have to be pedigree animals, but sensible cross-breeds that are useful and physically up to their job. Maybe then we won't see small spindly mares crossed with heavy stallions to "give a bit of bone" and the foal ends up a barrel supported by 4 matchsticks with tiny hooves on the end, or more examples of native ponies being crossed with large animals producing unwanted, unsaleable foals.
As for Ireland, well they seem to be currently very good at flooding the market with rubbish coloured animals which they think will sell simply because of the colouring, and sick, inbred puppies. Wasn't there a drive for a cut-price slaughter of unwanted, abandoned and excess horses there a year or two back?
 
Caracarrie said:
Somewhat of an exaggeration!

As for Ireland, well they seem to be currently very good at flooding the market with rubbish coloured animals which they think will sell simply because of the colouring, and sick, inbred puppies. Wasn't there a drive for a cut-price slaughter of unwanted, abandoned and excess horses there a year or two back?
Click to expand...
I think thats a grossly unfair thing to say- there are hundreds upon hundreds of inbred, badly kept, fend-for-themselves herds of coloured horses in England on every river back and fly grazed on any available rubbish grazing.
As for breeding, there are so many TBs bred that arent suitable for racing, whether too slow, unsound, bad temperament, whatever, I think only the very best specimens should be selected for brood mares. No point breeding rubbish. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best. We have no idea whether OPs mare is good bad or indifferent in these respects.
 
Cortez said:
TB blood in sportshorses is most useful if it is A. selected by people who know what they're doing & know the TB bloodlines that are producing the sort of athleticism that suits modern competitive sport, and B. is introduced via the WB approved sires; either through high-TB% or approved TB stallions that are graded into the stud books. Breeding out of "throw away" mares is precisely why there are too many unsuitable, unsaleable, untrained, unwanted horses out there in the market (and this includes here in Ireland, BTW).
Click to expand...

Clearly, any breeding needs to be done by people who know what they're doing - otherwise they have no business being near a horse. The OP has the option of selling to a stud if she so wishes where the mare would be in the right hands.

While traditionally blood has been introduced through the sire there has also been great success using TB mares to produce sport horses. I'm currently selling an eventer from just such a mare and he couldn't be nicer.

Former Irish event team coach and renowned breeder William Micklem has made a great study of TB breeding in eventers. Referring to the success of the great sire Cavalier Royale when crossed with TB mares he has this to say: "Most of Cavalier's famous offspring are out of thoroughbred Irish mares, so they are three-quarters thoroughbred.

"The success of Cavalier Royale with TB mares as an event sire was no accident as he is just over 50pc TB and carries the premium TB genes of four of the five great TB gods of the warm blood world -- Furioso, Rantzau, Ladykiller and Cottage Son," he says. "The fifth TB warm blood god is Lucky Boy." "

The great eventer Lenamore was also out of a TB mare and the top priced horse at the Go for Gold a couple of years ago was also out of a TB mare - made €50,000, so nothing wrong with that!

And what is a 'throwaway mare'. I got a TB mare on loan and later gifted to me some years back - owner went abroad. Had been bought as a four yr-old at Tattersalls, the dam's first foal so no major form to go on and was passed out unsold at €1,000 and bought outside. Best mare we had, produced fabulous foals with Olympic Lux and Harlequin du Carel. Every horseman that stepped into the yard loved her - couldn't get a better put together mare. And she was a 'throwaway' you could say from the racing world - but we knew better.

What might be a 'throwaway' in a racing sense could turn out to be gold as a broodmare for sport horses. Personally I don't know any studs here producing unsuitable, unsaleable, untrained and unwanted horses. They are run by excellent horse people who pride themselves on not producing that type. Indeed their very financial survival depends on it. You may be thinking of some of the poor specimens that turn up at horse fairs but I very much doubt they were bred by studs or proper producers. There will always be misguided, inexperienced types dabbling with breeding. The best course for the OP is to have nothing to do with them.

More from Micklem:
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/thoroughbreds-point-to-success-26764448.html
 
Cortez said:
TB blood in sportshorses is most useful if it is A. selected by people who know what they're doing & know the TB bloodlines that are producing the sort of athleticism that suits modern competitive sport, and B. is introduced via the WB approved sires; either through high-TB% or approved TB stallions that are graded into the stud books. Breeding out of "throw away" mares is precisely why there are too many unsuitable, unsaleable, untrained, unwanted horses out there in the market (and this includes here in Ireland, BTW).
Click to expand...

100% this /\/\/\/\

Why on earth would you breed a mare that has not proven any particular skill? She could have any number of ridden issues that could pass on to the foal; not brave jumping, very spooky, no work ethic, too sharp, bad shape over fences, lazy, weak in some paces. You could breed her with the best stallion in the world and get a horse who has the capability to jump but not the attitude, carefulness or bravery.

No one is saying people in Ireland or anywhere shouldn't breed horses, but the ones who aren't skilled in matching suitable mixes shouldn't. Especially just for the sake of giving a horse a job on the hope the foal might be half decent. There is a glut now of very very average sport horses that are too much horse for the average leisure rider.

You can't just say TBs make excellent broodmares as a blanket statement. TBs can be great broodmares if put with the right stallion. But most of time people don't have the skills and end up with a sporthorse that is too sharp for leisure riders, and not talented enough for pro riders.
 
Here's a controversial idea - why don't the racing industry pay for the retraining and rehoming or euthanasia of all of their surplus animals instead of passing them on? While they're at that, maybe they could breed fewer as well. In fact, maybe it's about time that everyone cuts back to only breeding by request - as in, with homes and back-up homes already lined up for each new foal. It's expected of dog breeders, so why not with horses? The pro riders ought to be organised enough to plan ahead for what they want, and the rest of us can either do the same or scrape something up from what's already available.
 
Long experience has proven that the best way to cross is refining stallion on heavier mare; some TB mares have produced nice crosses with more substantial stallions, but it is very hit and miss. I have seen some awful yokes out of TB mares - heavy tops on spindly legs and uncertain temprements being common. Mr. Micklem is very well known for sourcing eventers, but I wouldn't class him as a "great" breeder....
 
Caracarrie said:
Somewhat of an exaggeration!

I'm talking about "backyard" breeders who think their mare is the most beautiful thing on planet earth and have it covered by the stallion of a friend of a friend because it was local and cheap, or the mare is injured and unrideable so the best thing is to let it have a foal or two to give it something to do in its retirement. Hands up who doesn't know someone who has allowed their bitch to have a litter "so that she can experience motherhood" and then realised that they can get £200 per puppy, nice little earner, so the bitch has another litter or two?
Let the people who have the facilities, time and experience produce tomorrow's generation, whatever the species. They don't have to be pedigree animals, but sensible cross-breeds that are useful and physically up to their job. Maybe then we won't see small spindly mares crossed with heavy stallions to "give a bit of bone" and the foal ends up a barrel supported by 4 matchsticks with tiny hooves on the end, or more examples of native ponies being crossed with large animals producing unwanted, unsaleable foals.
As for Ireland, well they seem to be currently very good at flooding the market with rubbish coloured animals which they think will sell simply because of the colouring, and sick, inbred puppies. Wasn't there a drive for a cut-price slaughter of unwanted, abandoned and excess horses there a year or two back?
Click to expand...

You never made it clear you were were referring to 'backyard breeders', which of course the majority of breeders are not.

The greens and wastelands of England have plenty of black and white types also breeding indiscriminately - so I really don't see how that's relevant. This difference is that in addition to the cobs we also breed some of the word's greatest racehorses and sport horses.

Have you ever stopped to wonder where British teams might have been without Irish horses to ride?? Milton for instance - out of an Irish draught mare and Zara Phillips High Kingdom that landed a silver medal at the Olympics.

You may have a problem with Irish bred horses but luckily the chef d'equipes of your national teams don't. And why would they - the Irish Sport Horse Studbook was once again crowned as the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) leading Eventing Studbook in the world for 2016. Since the WBFSH rankings were established in 1994, the Irish Sport Horse Studbook has won the coveted Eventing Studbook rankings for 21 of the last 23 years. In other words if you want a top event horse or even a nice amateur mount there is no place better in the world to source one than here.
 
Irish gal said:
You never made it clear you were were referring to 'backyard breeders', which of course the majority of breeders are not.

The greens and wastelands of England have plenty of black and white types also breeding indiscriminately - so I really don't see how that's relevant. This difference is that in addition to the cobs we also breed some of the word's greatest racehorses and sport horses.

Have you ever stopped to wonder where British teams might have been without Irish horses to ride?? Milton for instance - out of an Irish draught mare and Zara Phillips High Kingdom that landed a silver medal at the Olympics.

You may have a problem with Irish bred horses but luckily the chef d'equipes of your national teams don't. And why would they - the Irish Sport Horse Studbook was once again crowned as the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) leading Eventing Studbook in the world for 2016. Since the WBFSH rankings were established in 1994, the Irish Sport Horse Studbook has won the coveted Eventing Studbook rankings for 21 of the last 23 years. In other words if you want a top event horse or even a nice amateur mount there is no place better in the world to source one than here.
Click to expand...

Kudos to you for bigging up our native product, but really...the people who are breeding the great Irish racehorse are not the same people who are breeding the cobs, now are they? The great Irish bred horses you cite are all pretty old or gone by now, and really, there are too many people out there who have NO CLUE what they are doing.
 
Cortez said:
Long experience has proven that the best way to cross is refining stallion on heavier mare; some TB mares have produced nice crosses with more substantial stallions, but it is very hit and miss. I have seen some awful yokes out of TB mares - heavy tops on spindly legs and uncertain temprements being common. Mr. Micklem is very well known for sourcing eventers, but I wouldn't class him as a "great" breeder....
Click to expand...

I know what you're saying and obviously a real light type mare would not be ideal but there are some very nice old fashioned NH types that have plenty of bone. And we should not forget the wonderful blood Connies that there is a great demand for at the moment. A nice Connie stallion or sport horse with blood is the ideal for a TB mare.

Micklem is better known for sourcing but he did breed High Kingdom and Mandiba - world No 1 eventer in 2010 - so I think he's qualified to speak. I'd feel pretty good as a breeder with horses like that!
 
Irish Gal - slightly off topic but I shall definitely be buying an Irish bred horse should I be in the market for another. I will probably go to Ireland to look for it this time as well.

My current horse is Irish, he's actually a bit stupid, but he's well put together and talented when his brain works. He's had lots of compliments off dressage judges.

The only other breed I would be tempted by, if I wanted to do pure dressage, would be an Andalusian as I used to work with them and they have a special place in my heart.
 
Cortez said:
Kudos to you for bigging up our native product, but really...the people who are breeding the great Irish racehorse are not the same people who are breeding the cobs, now are they? The great Irish bred horses you cite are all pretty old or gone by now, and really, there are too many people out there who have NO CLUE what they are doing.
Click to expand...

The cobs were mentioned Cortez by a poster who said: "As for Ireland, well they seem to be currently very good at flooding the market with rubbish coloured animals which they think will sell simply because of the colouring" - as if that was the sum total of horses bred here - which couldn't be further from the truth. Which to enlighten her I referred to the racehorse industry here - one of the best in the world.

The great Irish horses that I am citing are current Cortez in eventing terms which is why our studbook is again number 1 in the world last year for producing top eventers. I have already said it but maybe you didn't take it in so here it is again from Horse Sport Ireland: "The Irish Sport Horse Studbook has once again been crowned as the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) leading Eventing Studbook in the world for 2016. Since the WBFSH rankings were established in 1994, the Irish Sport Horse Studbook has won the coveted Eventing Studbook rankings for 21 of the last 23 years."

In eventing terms that couldn't be more current...

Of course there are bad horses being bred but they are in the minority. There also fabulous horses being bred by the proper studs and knowledgeable breeders. It is these horses that fuel the success of our elite sport horse sales like the Go for Gold and the supreme sale of show jumpers. I work with some of these breeders and producers selling their horses and I just don't think it's fair to tarr professional Irish horse people with the same brush as those uninformed people breeding rubbish.

You're right there are still too many people out there with no clue but there are also fantastic horse men and women working very hard to breed and produce the best. We often hear very little about them but you know what they also have a problem and it's that their beautifully produced horses sometimes fall into the hands of clueless riders who wreck them and then blame the horse. But what about all the clueless buyers out there, we don't hear about them. And all the people, who as a great producer said to me recently "couldn't ride one side of a horse - not to mind two". They shouldn't be left anywhere near a horse but the sad fact is anyone with the money can buy one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top