x-ray results..

I know lots of people that use Billy Crothers, and have seen a lot of his 'work' both remedial and routine.

I would not let him near any of my horses feet.
 
so back to tango!!!
i am meeting a equine podiatrist today shes not seeing tango, i am just going for a chat... see what i think, as i have been put of trimmers... i have the vet and remidal farrier coming next week..see what they come up with... tango is not lame, hes sore thats why i called the vet. hes not got laminitis at the mo..but decided to get x-rays just to see what was going on and the best way to trim or what ever they dicide to do... i will stick with my vet and his farrier...hes on box rest untill the vet and farrier come.. hes on no painkillers..i will compare the farriers and the podiatrist thoughts and decide which way to go...but i trust my vet, never meet the others so will make my diction based on there opinions...
 
Sounds like your doing the right thing TM, listen to the advise of all 3 and then come up with a plan :)
 
Pale Rider said:
Everything which follows refers directly to Leviathan as this person has put the events surrounding their horse in the public arena, and has freely given advice which I believe to be fundimentally flawed and been hyper critical of others offering opinion and advice.
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Lets address these as you listed them:rolleyes:



Yes I disagree with barefoot while and I mean WHILE the horse is in the unstable time , I am not alone in this as mentioned by other posters. That's my choice to think barefoot is not the way to go , at the end of the day all options are given in open forum and OP can pick or choose what they do or don't do.

Yes the Blog was up for viewing to share my story which is why on the front page it says for education purposes only, not for some WP to try and copy and paste my event & bring onto a public forum and humiliate me by saying. What I have experienced and the way I have treated my mare is totally wrong.
In their blog, Leviathon refers to their horse being lethargic and not forward going as usual. They assume that the horse needs extra hard feed and so up the ration. This is the first error in a catalogue of disaster which has been going on for over a year. Increasing the hard feed in a horse which is showing the first signs of laminitis will exacerbate the process.
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a. The mare suffers from asthma and goes sluggish and breaths heavy during the high pollen time. This is why she was treated with ventapulmin and a slight increase by 1/2 scoop of corn. NO signs of Laminitis were shown to the vet at the time.
no:
increase pulse
lameness

The mare had done a 12 mile ride with 50 jumps shortly before the sluggish started and we had past through many fields with rape plant. Hence the reason of her breathing

2011. same ride brilliant then breathing a bit chesty so the previous year saw improvement so treatment including extra corn was given.
ON NO ACCOUNT WAS THE MARE SHOWING ANY OBVIOUS SIGNS OF LAMINITIS.

b. 2 months after this (she had recovered her breathing and was back to full work) she had heat in one foot she had been out hacking the day before over a very flinty area so abscess was treated thought to be the reason as she did have a small indent in her sole.

The stable door is left open and the horse breaks into the feed store gorges on barley then takes itself off fror a graze. Fairly incompetant leaving so many gates and doors open, some might say.
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As you have overlooked many things there were slip rails in the door as ALL OUR STABLES HAVE . So doors can be left open and fresh air for horses. That is our choice we don't need you to criticize.

Yes on this day in my haste to get to a appointment, I overlooked putting the safety pin to stop rails being knocked down. I don't need you to tell me
I was
incompetant
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it should be spelt incompetent .;)

Don't you think I have beaten myself enough and made myself very ill at the time for doing this and still do blame myself ?? I don't need you dragging it all up again.:rolleyes:

Throughout this the horse is being given large amounts of bute, and still is. Whilst I agree with giving NSAID drugs initially, prolonged administration will interfere with the prodction of certain enzymes required for the regeneration of the laminae. In addition prolonged administration will cause intestinal problems and kidney damage, as well as masking the real level of lameness in the horse allowing excessive movement. Although movement is necessary to stimulate and encourage regeneration, the level of movement cannot be assesed properly whilst high levels of bute are being used.
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Think you need to use your spell checker;)
assesed
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should be assessed.;)
We all know that long high doses of bute damage the system and disguises the actual lameness :rolleyes:
I did not go into full detail in that blog , I didn't know months later someone would post this on a forum and I would have to explain myself.

Let me get this out to you as you seem intent on making a big issue of this . My mare was on a higher dose for about 5 days during a couple of times due to the sinking/ abscesses then she was back to her normal 2 a day dose. She has even recently been down to 1/2 bute am and pm:eek:
A further drug is then administered Founder Stop or something, which induces colic, a known and expected side effect of the drug according Leviathon. Fool hardy in the extreme to 'induce' colic in a lamanitic horse. Colic and laminitis being the two main killers of horses.
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Founderguard is not a drug if you bother to look at the website :rolleyes:
Founderguard does NOT cause colic . My mares colic was unrelated to the Lamintis
Founderguard is a pellet supplement proven to reduce Laminitis flare ups.
To date Leviathon claims that pedal bone reversal has taken place to some degree. I would suggest this is in spite of the treatment rather than the result of it. We are now a year into this and the horse would have had time to grow new feet completely, yet it is still on box rest, consuming large amounts of bute and still lame.
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its leviathan by the way ;)

It is due to farriers work which is why we had the reversal as this happened after his work applied .
As you are well aware there a side effects after the initial laminitis attack and subsequent flare ups in the healing process.
It IS NOT on high bute and is only slightly sore now and confirmed by the vet it is not in acute laminitis anymore:rolleyes:
The treatment of this horse has been poor, riddled with backward thinking and unsuccessful, yet thought of by Leviathon as some sort of triumph.
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Don't you dare come in here and publicly say my treatment is poor when you know only a few tiny things that have been done in the way of treatment.

This mare has had the best treatment and medication and has come through the other side of and the dedication of which many on this forum would not give.
She has overcome :
sinking x 2
pedal rotation x 2
septic pedal osteitis
to name but a few

I do not have to justify my treatment to someone like you :mad:

Yes I did restrict the access to that blog as I did not want someone like you to drag it into this forum.

My mare has had a long journey yes has stayed happy calm a will to live and has over come battles , these fought battles are down my dedication and care the vet and the farrier and my hubby for sponsoring her.

That blog was just to help anyone who chose to view to see our journey so if they saw or heard of septic pedal or anything that there is a way forward and would give them the strength to carry on. Not for some WP to come and slate me. I am disgusted in myself for not putting that pin in on that awful day.


But I am proud the way I have fought for this mare and sat up with her nursed her through thick and thin and which I would never have got this far without the expert vets and expert farrier who deals with laminitis on a day to day and has on many occasions healed horses who had almost penetrated soles due to Laminitis. .

Now Tangos Mum I apologies for hugging your post. My help and comments are things I have experienced and wanted to share with you in case you were in doubt of anything or ways forward. I am here for you in Pm I am writing a full book with loads of detailed pictures and full day to day events as they happen. As my mare was in one sense worst off albeit only one foot there is always hope thats the point of my blog.

This book will be sold if requested and monies albeit very small to charity of which I will check with TFC if its ok to do so.

NO PR and O . Enough is enough I don't have to justify myself to you.

You may or may not have seen My Farrier working on hundreds of laminitics and the feedback is amazing from customers. Just looking at an odd video on Youtube is not exactly reference is it.

You can't please everyone and you can't save every horse. You can only do you best.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion mine is solely on my experience hands on over the last year, for this I wish to share with others during this awful time.

Tango's mum I have pm'd you:D
 
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Leviathan said:
The mare had done a 12 mile ride with 50 jumps shortly before the sluggish started and we had past through many fields with rape plant. Hence the reason of her breathing

2011. same ride brilliant then breathing a bit chesty so the previous year saw improvement so treatment including extra corn was given.
ON NO ACCOUNT WAS THE MARE SHOWING ANY OBVIOUS SIGNS OF LAMINITIS.
Click to expand...

Just an aside regarding breathing in the hope that it may help others detect laminitis BEFORE any heat/pulses etc.

Heavy, laboured breathing was my mares FIRST sign of laminitis. As she had previously had a lung infection and was not lame and did not have any heat or pulses, I did not consider laminitis. When she became lame, I still did not detect laminitis and treated her for an abscess. Vet came and did not detect laminitis either. Two days after the vets visit, I suspected laminitis as I had not got any pus out with the poultice. Vet confirmed laminitis. Her heavy breathing was her first sign of the disease. She is very stoical and so this was her way of showing the pain she was in. Once the laminitis was treated (we caught it early), and she was tested positive for Cushings, the heavy breathing stopped.
 
Woah! Think this post is meant to be for Tango Mum to ask advice not a bitching fest for everyone else..think its gone abit far!

Since my gelding had lami i have heard so many different ways on dealing with it, most of all to ensure they are kept comfortable and happy (surely this is more important?)

I think everyone has given very good advice so far!

Tangos mum- best of luck and keep us informed of progress :)
 
Leviathan said:
Founderguard is not a drug if you bother to look at the website :rolleyes:
Founderguard does NOT cause colic . My mares colic was unrelated to the Lamintis
Founderguard is a pellet supplement proven to reduce Laminitis flare ups.
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Founderguard's active ingredient is virginiamycin, an antibiotic that kills specific bugs in the gut. When I last used it, it was a controlled drug that required specific permission and licence obtained by the Vet from Defra to import from Australia where it is made.
 
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cptrayes said:
Founderguard's active ingredient is virginiamycin, an antibiotic that kills specific bugs in the gut. When I last used it, it was a controlled drug that required specific permission and licence obtained by the Vet from Defra to import from Australia where it is made.
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Your right you have to require it from a vet who then contacts them for special license, which if approved , is then sent back to the supplier who in turn sends it to the vet for collection by the customer .
 
Leviathan said:
Your right you have to require it from a vet who then contacts them for special license, which if approved , is then sent back to the supplier who in turn sends it to the vet for collection by the customer .
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I know. And if you know, why did you say it was not a drug, when it is one of the most controlled drugs that Vets use? Quite honestly, it brings into question a lot of the other stuff you have written as advice, sorry :(
 
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stabled while lame/on bute
gentle walking once sound on bute but literally round the yard, not out in a field
turnout on bare surface once sound for a fortnight

certainly wouldnt be turning out into a field with any grass in it until horse has been sound off bute for a couple of weeks, but definitely would be doing gentle exercise as soon as horse is comfortable to move and turn and is sound as that helps the blood supply to help the laminae repair.

pads might be a help, unlikely to harm...whether necessary would depend on severity. your vet is best placed to assess.
 
Wagtail said:
Just an aside regarding breathing in the hope that it may help others detect laminitis BEFORE any heat/pulses etc.

Heavy, laboured breathing was my mares FIRST sign of laminitis. As she had previously had a lung infection and was not lame and did not have any heat or pulses, I did not consider laminitis. When she became lame, I still did not detect laminitis and treated her for an abscess. Vet came and did not detect laminitis either. Two days after the vets visit, I suspected laminitis as I had not got any pus out with the poultice. Vet confirmed laminitis. Her heavy breathing was her first sign of the disease. She is very stoical and so this was her way of showing the pain she was in. Once the laminitis was treated (we caught it early), and she was tested positive for Cushings, the heavy breathing stopped.
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This was the same with my mare, I had no idea the breathing was lami related, as she was sound when ridden and in field, but I thought I had fed her dusty hay or something or she was unfit and I was working her too hard.

It certainly can be a big warning sign but I think few people know this, I certainly didnt. It was only when she became lame out on a ride that her (one off, acute, no rotation) lami was diagnosed. I then realised that the breathing was her struggling to manage with the pain :-((

Now if I heard her breathing more than normal, I would be on it like a hawk, but you live and learn :-(
 
cptrayes said:
I know. And if you know, why did you say it was not a drug, when it is one of the most controlled drugs that Vets use? Quite honestly, it brings into question a lot of the other stuff you have written as advice, sorry :(
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Probably because:


A. I don't think of it as a drug more of a supplement and preventative.
B. I haven't personally seen any where where it was described as a drug, Even vets never used the term drug. Not saying there isn't more as I haven't seen it I never thought of it as one.

I can't see the relevance of other things I have written reflect on the fact I don't think of it as a drug. sorry
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
This was the same with my mare, I had no idea the breathing was lami related, as she was sound when ridden and in field, but I thought I had fed her dusty hay or something or she was unfit and I was working her too hard.

It certainly can be a big warning sign but I think few people know this, I certainly didnt. It was only when she became lame out on a ride that her (one off, acute, no rotation) lami was diagnosed. I then realised that the breathing was her struggling to manage with the pain :-((

Now if I heard her breathing more than normal, I would be on it like a hawk, but you live and learn :-(
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It's amazing how much they put up with, isn't it? Even before they go lame. Makes you wonder how many horses are being ridden and are in quite considerable pain before they go lame. :(
 
Leviathan said:
I can't see the relevance of other things I have written reflect on the fact I don't think of it as a drug. sorry
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I will explain.

If you do not think that an antibiotic which requires your Vet to obtain an import licence from DEFRA is a drug, when no other equine medicine that I know of requires an import licence at all, then I would question whether your advice as to shoeing, padding, bute-ing for a year, etc is anything that the OP should take any notice of.

Apologies if this sounds rude but I think that the OP needs to judge the other advice that you are giving her, which has been quite assertive, against your surprising lack of knowledge that Founderguard's active ingredient was the antibiotic virginiamycin and the assertion that it was simply a "supplement" and not a drug, in spite of being aware that using it required your Vet to obtain an import licence.
 
BlackVelvet said:
Woah! Think this post is meant to be for Tango Mum to ask advice not a bitching fest for everyone else..think its gone abit far!

Since my gelding had lami i have heard so many different ways on dealing with it, most of all to ensure they are kept comfortable and happy (surely this is more important?)

I think everyone has given very good advice so far!

Tangos mum- best of luck and keep us informed of progress :)
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thankyou bv...
ok... hes not lame never was.. just sore on uneven ground, so i called the vet to just check him, he aggreed he not laminitic.. just sore.. and wanted x-rays doing..
i am keeping him in untill the vet and remidial farrier comes next week.. i am hopeing he suggests stylofoam pads and boots.. i will not let them nail shoes on and i cannot afford glue on shoes (£200)+ last i heard. i cant not afford that..every 4 weeks.. i am very greatfull for everyones support , i will trust my vets opinion, as he knows him,and no one on here dose, ... i get to see the x-rays next week.. thanks again for your support..
 
If his rotation is not due to laminitis, then what is it due to? Could it be mechanical rotation? Sometimes if the toes have been left too long it can cause separation and weakness in the laminae and consequently a rotation of the pedal bone.
 
cptrayes said:
I will explain.

If you do not think that an antibiotic which requires your Vet to obtain an import licence from DEFRA is a drug, when no other equine medicine that I know of requires an import licence at all, then I would question whether your advice as to shoeing, padding, bute-ing for a year, etc is anything that the OP should take any notice of.

Apologies if this sounds rude but I think that the OP needs to judge the other advice that you are giving her, which has been quite assertive, against your surprising lack of knowledge that Founderguard's active ingredient was the antibiotic virginiamycin and the assertion that it was simply a "supplement" and not a drug, in spite of being aware that using it required your Vet to obtain an import licence.
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Well as I have said to her privately she needs to listen to her vet and farrier.
we can only share our experiences

.
Well I am sorry that does sound rude.

Who are you to judge me first it was PR and O now you
Why have you jumped on this thread and now saying just because I have more on my mind at the moment than to worry about whether something is a drug or not. My mare is on it as it was advised for her by my vet practice. who's advice I trust more than anyone on here.

My advise is worth nothing and people need to be wary of my advice??

I am sharing my experience of what I went through with my mare is shared with the OP. Its what she asked for and I shared my opinion based on the last few months what I was advised and what helped my mare which could in turn help another, whether or not she takes it is up to her. But for strangers to come here and question my care on my horse say I am wrong my care for my mare is poor, smells like forum bullies to me. That's it I am done with this thread. I am not getting into discussion anymore this Is Tangosmum's thread.

Sorry Tango's mum I said all I wanted to say but the WBP do keep trying to continue it. Back to you and again sorry :)
 
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Wagtail said:
If his rotation is not due to laminitis, then what is it due to? Could it be mechanical rotation? Sometimes if the toes have been left too long it can cause separation and weakness in the laminae and consequently a rotation of the pedal bone.
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sorry i didnt word that very well..:rolleyes:
hes had laminitis 3 times since october, so probably why theres rotation, and yes his toes are long thanks to bf trimmer... i was saying hes not got it at the mo...
 
Hmmm very strange :/ with the rotation and 'footiness' i would have said lami so id be interested to see what the vet thinks. (that isnt meant to sound rude, i generally am interested!) sounds like your doing everything to ensure that hes comfortable and thats the main thing :)
 
tango'smum said:
sorry i didnt word that very well..:rolleyes:
hes had laminitis 3 times since october, so probably why theres rotation, and yes his toes are long thanks to bf trimmer... i was saying hes not got it at the mo...
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Sorry, I should have been keeping up better! There are so many people with lami related problems on here at the moment (including myself and one of my liveries) that I am getting them mixed up. Good that he doesn't have it at the moment. :)
 
BlackVelvet said:
Hmmm very strange :/ with the rotation and 'footiness' i would have said lami so id be interested to see what the vet thinks. (that isnt meant to sound rude, i generally am interested!) sounds like your doing everything to ensure that hes comfortable and thats the main thing :)
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yes thats what the vet said.. not showing signs.. but will see what he has to say next week.... it could be lami i suppose but hes not like he was before when he had it... we'll see...
 
Wagtail said:
Sorry, I should have been keeping up better! There are so many people with lami related problems on here at the moment (including myself and one of my liveries) that I am getting them mixed up. Good that he doesn't have it at the moment. :)
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yes i am getting rather confused at the moment... :)
 
Leviathan said:
Who are you to judge me first it was PR and O now you
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I am not judging you. I am telling the original poster that at least one piece of information that you have given is wildly inaccurate, and that in my opinion she would therefore need to treat with caution any other information that you have provided her with.

If three people have now questionned what you are writing, then I think that you yourself need to question either what you are writing or the style in which you are writing it.

If you do not wish to have what you write called into question then you would need to stop posting, so assertively, advice how to treat a laminitic on a public and unmoderated forum.
 
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so.. if the vet and farrier say shoe him, can i say no??... i was thinking pads and boots?.. no way can i do glue on shoes every 4 weeks at £250.. what other options are there?... i will listern to my vet, but really dont want shoes nailed on...
 
I'm no professional but I would say good appropriate, sympathetic trimming (de-rotating trim) diet, boots and pads would be fine. My pony has this treatment as no one would shoe her anyway.. mini Shetland hoof width 2 ins. lol

Once rotation has occurred it remains until grown out, even when the inflammation (laminitis) has subsided. Lamina cannot repair once detached, new connected hoof has to be grown down, that is why the trimming is so important to support new hoof growth and angle. This will take months to happen so good trimming and support must be maintained.
 
General plea here...can this post discuss the options and NOT become quite so unpleasant. People sharing their experiences is incredibly helpful and I learn a lot. It is useful when people clearly differentiate between their horses sypmtoms etc but no need to be shouted down or personal. Many roads to Rome guys!
 
tango'smum said:
so.. if the vet and farrier say shoe him, can i say no??... i was thinking pads and boots?.. no way can i do glue on shoes every 4 weeks at £250.. what other options are there?... i will listern to my vet, but really dont want shoes nailed on...
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Yes, you can say no. My horse was diagnosed by x ray with distal descent of p3 and reverse rotation; the vet wanted bar shoes on - I explained the logic behind not shoeing, and the vet ultimately agreed with me. I think most of the time, professionals just want to know that you're educated about the issue you're dealing with; then they're a lot happier to support your wishes.
 
Luci07 said:
General plea here...can this post discuss the options and NOT become quite so unpleasant. People sharing their experiences is incredibly helpful and I learn a lot. It is useful when people clearly differentiate between their horses sypmtoms etc but no need to be shouted down or personal. Many roads to Rome guys!
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wasn't going to reply back here but since you posted this sensible post:D.
Lucie well said that's what I wanted to do share my experiences. Seem like some think we are not aloud too. :rolleyes:
Can't wait till vet gives me the all clear to walk in hand :D
 
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