X-rays on a 3yo vetting? Thoughts

Comet1 said:
Sadly not. His joints were too far deteriorated to be medicated even to get him hacking, and he was put to sleep. He’d barely done any work (just over four months, with some regular breaks). Completely heartbreaking position to be in.
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Oh no Im so very sorry. They really do break you're heart dont they.
 
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ihatework said:
God it’s difficult.
As discussed minor findings versus clinical significance is a minefield.

Another thing to consider is insurance. If you have X-rays you have to declare them. So you will either shoot yourself in the foot and potentially have exclusions that may otherwise have been covered or you potentially vet multiple horses to get clean X-rays, and in doing so could eat significantly into your budget!

Might be worth exploring what insurance companies require for LOU cover and then only X-ray if there is clinical doubt on vetting (but insure LOU). That said on a relatively low purchase price there are pros and cons to anything.

ETA - personally I wouldn’t X-ray. That isn’t however me saying you shouldn’t. This is from increasing experience whereby the correlation of X-rays to how fit for purpose the horse is, is so low imo. For a low value 3yo I’d go basic 2 stage and assess conformation and general ease of moment/balance/demeanour, then cross your fingers
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This!
 
I've had three with Clover Hill in their pedigree.....none were full ID, but crossed to a greater or lesser extent with TB and were hunters and up to BE Novice eventers. All were jumpers that loved their job. One I lost due to an accident in the hunting field, another had a stifle issue and the third was caught up by old age. If you can find photos of Clover Hill you will see that his conformation wasn't the greatest by any stretch of the imagination, but by now he will be several generations back in the pedigree so the influence should be diluted.
 
Birker2020 said:
I'm really on the fence with this one.

As I've said previously my physio friend says you could xray 10 horses, eight may show changes, only one may be in pain. How you determine which one it is especially as the horse you're after won't demonstrate pain as easily as a ridden horse due to being not backed yet.

I honestly don't know. But with the benefit of knowing Lari's issues now, if I'd had him xrayed at his vetting (and it would have been the first one I'd ever bought that would have been subjected to xrays as part of a PPE) I'd have not made such a costly mistake. Although I'd like to add that I don't really see him as a 'mistake' as I love him dearly and don't really regret the way things turned out.
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But for a vetting you’re not generally looking to find the ones in pain now, you’re looking for things that might cause pain in the future.

It does also give you a set to compare with should issues occur down the line.

That being said I’m not sure I would in this instance.
 
As an ex breeder, I'm finding this a very worrying post which is no help to the poster, I'm sorry.
How come the horses being bred today are turning out so weak in their skeletal system? Is it the actual breeding with so many different types and breeds thrown together; is it the feeding (of both, mare and foal) the way of rearing and keeping now or what?
Our horses used to be as tough as old boots, lasted for years with very few hiccups along the way. What the hell has changed to cause the problems now being shown?
 
Mfh999 said:
As an ex breeder, I'm finding this a very worrying post which is no help to the poster, I'm sorry.
How come the horses being bred today are turning out so weak in their skeletal system? Is it the actual breeding with so many different types and breeds thrown together; is it the feeding (of both, mare and foal) the way of rearing and keeping now or what?
Our horses used to be as tough as old boots, lasted for years with very few hiccups along the way. What the hell has changed to cause the problems now being shown?
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A combination of all the above. But also an element of people now looking for stuff, some of which was probably there in the good old days, but horses were just expected to get on with it. That said, I do overall think horses are more fragile these days especially those bred for sport - and the sport we expect them to do is much more demanding than of old.
 
I despise hypermobile horses (maybe not them, but the concept of it all). It's not their fault, but we need to stop breeding them. I own one, and I really don't even enjoy watching him move. I bought him as a yearling for his disposition (that's backfired, anyway) and it wasn't as obvious then. I had many x-rays done when I purchased him. Just out of habit really. I fully regret buying that horse. Never, ever, again.

Sure, some get along fine, and maybe mine will too, but it's caused me too much damn anxiety and makes me hesitant to sell him on.
 
Comet1 said:
Six months ago I would have said definitely not, however I’m in a similar position and will now X-ray certain areas going forward (more for my peace of mind).

I bought a recently backed 4yo from a reputable dealer. Passed a five stage vetting, but had significant arthritis in both small hock joints, no cartilage left, and more changes in the larger hock joints. Even my vet told me I was just very unlucky and do not need to X-ray, however I’m going to have to x-ray the hocks at a minimum (irrelevant of the horse purchase price) as I can’t go through all this again.
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thats awfully sad :-(
 
Training and breeding have got themselves into a dystopian little vicious circle. Training deep and round, which the vast majority of competitive dressage riders at upper levels do, requires a "quick hind leg" so that they don't shut the body down completely. So that means a degree of instability - the slower the stance phase the more stable the horse would be my very basic understanding, certainly of training. Because they don't truly get the backs up they need a noodly feel in the head and neck to make the horse feel supple...and that's without the whole hackney-fication of dressage horse breeding, with long, flexible elastic tissues needed for that hideous knee action that we see winning again and again. No matter that their backs are dropped, at the wither, and behind the saddle. You see fetlocks taking the strain, them balancing themselves through their polls, ribcages dropping down from back to front, and seriously uneven muscling behind.

Are they all actually hypermobile? No I'm quite sure that by a medical definition they are not, but I keep seeing photos of horses for sale that would fit in a vertical rectangle, not even a square. Back in the day you wanted a slight horizontal rectangle for comfortable riding and long term soundness. Even early horses bred for riding had been bred way beyond the natural capacity of tendons and ligaments, and if we keep on with the longer legged "freaks" we'll never see an unmedicated sound horse, and we get less and less room to put a saddle.

How do we solve it? The breeders only breed that way because people buy the youngstock, and people buy the youngstock because we've forgotten what healthy movement looks like and judges reward "flash" and submission/accuracy despite the dysfunction clearly evident.

I can't add to the advice, I think horse buying is a nightmare, it was bad enough when I was riding, but now? A crap shoot.
 
Hypermobile horses are becoming an epidemic in themselves, but I bought a full ID with chunky legs, with recorded good breeding, untouched, lived out in a 30 horse herd on 50 acres of varied terrain until he was brought in to be sold as a rising 3yo, freeschooled once for the sales video, workmanlike paces, clean legs, not jumped ever apart from once for video, light work once broken, broken slowly, lots of hacking, not hammered in the school or on hard ground - still ended up with surgery having an OCD chip removed as a newly turned 5yo.

You can do everything you think for the best and sometimes you just get unlucky - such is the life with such big fragile animals. I went for him after the heartbreak of my big, flashy moving, overworked when young Westphalian - I wouldn't buy another like him, but I would buy another like Dex.. you win some you lose some
 
CanteringCarrot said:
I despise hypermobile horses (maybe not them, but the concept of it all). It's not their fault, but we need to stop breeding them. I own one, and I really don't even enjoy watching him move. I bought him as a yearling for his disposition (that's backfired, anyway) and it wasn't as obvious then. I had many x-rays done when I purchased him. Just out of habit really. I fully regret buying that horse. Never, ever, again.

Sure, some get along fine, and maybe mine will too, but it's caused me too much damn anxiety and makes me hesitant to sell him on.
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I'm sorry to hear this.
 
Mfh999 said:
As an ex breeder, I'm finding this a very worrying post which is no help to the poster, I'm sorry.
How come the horses being bred today are turning out so weak in their skeletal system? Is it the actual breeding with so many different types and breeds thrown together; is it the feeding (of both, mare and foal) the way of rearing and keeping now or what?
Our horses used to be as tough as old boots, lasted for years with very few hiccups along the way. What the hell has changed to cause the problems now being shown?
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I do think too we are all much more aware that horses that struggle/exhibit resistance etc may have physical issues now which would previously have been overlooked/put down to temperament. So we investigate and open a Pandora's box of trouble and awareness! As well as that, possibly management was easier for horses a few years ago; less technical demands, more breaks from competing etc and less pressure to get young horses moving up the levels in every discipline.

There are some issues around breeding now undoubtedly - poor decisions, extreme attributes/characteristics and buying into the idea that every horse can excel, when the reality is a very long way from that! People do seem to expect Shire horses to dressage and hairy cobs to event to a certain degree and that probably causes some issues. No one seems to want anything just ordinary any more! But I understand that society also struggles to justify the work and expense for something 'ordinary'...
 
I completely understand your dilemma but personally I wouldn't be doing more than the basic vet checks for a 3 yo,I'm assuming unbacked. I have had about 6 and still own 2 IDs one purebred one 3/4 bred. I personally haven't had any problems re hocks/ necks or juvenile arithis, other than injury, apart from one mare who had a problem with her front feet mainly due to a terrible sandcrack, still passed Irish 5 stage. I had a cracking mare by Clover Brigade who someone passed by as she was foot sore but was always 100% with me , I think we can go looking for problems these days and no horse is perfect. I hope your filly works out.
 
Thanks all, really good food for thought.

I've spoken to the owners of the full brother, who is in full work. I've also reached out to some half siblings, who are doing well.

It really can be luck. Similar to @AShetlandBitMeOnce My mare I bought over from Ireland at 3, she had lived out in a herd (not over weight or fed at all) and had half siblings were out eventing. I kept her lean, did in hand work until she was 4 (lots of leading out, long lining) then I gradually backed her out of the arena, I'm 5'4 and 55kg, always had correctly fitting tack. She had a (likely OCD) chip removed from her hock out at 5. She also has a huge host of problems diagnosed by 7, I do wonder if any of it is related to the bad liver damage she sustained at the original yard I had her at for 2 years.. but her sister is out eventing, it just feels so cruel.

It seems mad spending £800 on x-rays for a horse worth less than £3k, but its not just the money its the stress and heart break of it all. I know it doesn't totally remove risk at all, but it would make me feel a bit better.
 
I wouldn't X ray. I've only ever X rayed once and that is because the horse had such funky feet. Up until then, I'd always said that if there was anything that gave me a sniff of worry then I'd pass rather than X ray. I look for fluid movement and a happy, forward demeanour.

The funky feet one, I did X ray because he was amazing, 9yo, and doing the job I wanted already. He was forward and happy. I was quite prepared to buy him and take his shoes off and rehab the feet for the future. He was still 12K, and I just needed to know that the internal structures were not corrupted by the funky shape.

The x rays were great. I was happy until I drove him home and he dropped dead an hour later. He'd passes every other stage of the vetting with flying colours.

There is no telling with horses!

I think that's why I took a risk with H, buying unseen from Ireland. I knew you can do everything right and it can still blow up in your face. I'd seen a photo of H's sire, and he was real old fashioned, heavy and chunky. Not over produced at all.

I would rather have a forward happy horse, a clean vetting sheet and insure for vets fees than go on a fishing expedition.
 
Red-1 said:
I wouldn't X ray. I've only ever X rayed once and that is because the horse had such funky feet. Up until then, I'd always said that if there was anything that gave me a sniff of worry then I'd pass rather than X ray. I look for fluid movement and a happy, forward demeanour.
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Thanks Red.. so sorry to hear that. Thing is I did exactly this with my mare. She had good movement (maybe to good, hyper extension) flew as much as a 5 stage the vet could do (flexions, trotting up, loose in an arena) and the vet commented on what a super horse she was with a lovely easy attitude. If we had xrayed I wouldn’t have bought her because of the enormous chip in her hock. :(

I don’t want to go fishing, what concerns me the most is the stifles. I know several youngsters with stifle OCD not picked up until they started work at 4-5 but then I think if you xray stifles - where do you stop.

I’m really not sure what to do. According to the irish vets I’ve spoken too, 80% buying unseen and use them for a PPE do xray.
 
Hormonal Filly said:
Thanks Red.. so sorry to hear that. Thing is I did exactly this with my mare. She had good movement (maybe to good, hyper extension) flew as much as a 5 stage the vet could do (flexions, trotting up, loose in an arena) and the vet commented on what a super horse she was with a lovely easy attitude. If we had xrayed I wouldn’t have bought her because of the enormous chip in her hock. :(

I don’t want to go fishing, what concerns me the most is the stifles. I know several youngsters with stifle OCD not picked up until they started work at 4-5 but then I think if you xray stifles - where do you stop.

I’m really not sure what to do. According to the irish vets I’ve spoken too, 80% buying unseen and use them for a PPE do xray.
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I think you should do whatever gives you peace.

Once I have decided on a horse, I am pretty hell bent on getting them. But that is me through my lens of my experiences.

If you'd feel better with x rays then do them.
 
I bought a 3 year old last Nov after losing my 5 year old to so many joint problems I felt like I had to do everything in my power to prevent another load of problems.
So I had vetting with about 25 plus X-rays plus bloods.
I know you can never say never but I just didn’t want to buy a load of problems, to much heart ache.
 
I bought a 3 year old last Nov after losing my 5 year old to so many joint problems I felt like I had to do everything in my power to prevent another load of problems.
So I had vetting with about 25 plus X-rays plus bloods.
I know you can never say never but I just didn’t want to buy a load of problems, to much heart ache.
 
Mfh999 said:
As an ex breeder, I'm finding this a very worrying post which is no help to the poster, I'm sorry.
How come the horses being bred today are turning out so weak in their skeletal system? Is it the actual breeding with so many different types and breeds thrown together; is it the feeding (of both, mare and foal) the way of rearing and keeping now or what?
Our horses used to be as tough as old boots, lasted for years with very few hiccups along the way. What the hell has changed to cause the problems now being shown?
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Also we’re X-raying many more. How many of these chips would ever become symptomatic..
but once it’s on an xray the value is down and market limited.

I’ve bought both with and without rads, depending on value and what I can afford to gamble. At that price I’d be 2 staging.
 
Asides x-raying. What do people think about taking bloods on a vetting, particularly bloods from a horse being sold by the breeder being bought unseen. She is a unbroken 3yo as said in the original post.

I'm not sure legally where I would stand if a horse was doped and assume it would be difficult to get some money back even if so?
 
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When I’ve vetted horses, the vet did not give us a choice about taking bloods. Said it’s too easy for a sleekit seller to convince a buyer, nah, you don’t need that, so it’s a requirement of the PPE that they do it no matter what. At least in the UK.

They keep the sample for six months. I have no idea what would happen if the horse started playing up and you found out that it was indeed doped.
 
Is this question still about the same horse? If so I’m guessing you’re still fairly unsure?

I completely understand your worries given your recent horse history. Would it make you feel better to spend the £800 on going to see the horse rather than buying unseen?

I don’t vet or x-ray but I do look for:
- a relaxed, pain free face;
- soft eyes;
- good muscling behind; being not yet in work is no excuse. The soundest equines I have ever owned have been those who as unbacked youngsters had rumps like a well fed cob!
- a kind, relaxed demeanour and an ‘open’ personality with no guarding or stress evident around other horses/when resting in the field away from people. I buy ferals often and I expect them to tense around me - I take their temperament as how they are in the field with their herd.
- sound movement (in field if feral) that I make my husband critique as he is the most picky person alive!

Mostly, I pick out a photo that calls to me. Husband says yes or no to videos, we go and have a look. So far that has worked for us.

Happy to get the picky husband to look at videos for you!
 
maya2008 said:
Is this question still about the same horse? If so I’m guessing you’re still fairly unsure?
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It is, it’s mainly because the owner/breeder was away for a week and then her feet were pretty terrible so waited a week for the farrier to trim them before reviewing videos.

If it’s ok with you I’ll send some photos and videos over! Several members have been really helpful reviewing photos and videos of her the last few days.
 
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