XC - How to Fall - experiment idea - using a mechanical bucking bull!

kerilli

kerilli

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Yep, i've finally flipped.
After reading the "Taking the Plunge" article in August Eventing, i disagreed so much with so many of the conclusions that I asked NeilM on here (who has 30 years experience in Martial Arts, both doing them and teaching them, and is a Dan in 3), to read it and give me his opinion on it. We both wrote about it, and did a revised 'how to fall' (as the one in the article was contradictory). Unfortunately Eventing magazine doesn't have room to print more than 350-400 words of it, which isn't enough imho to comment on many points in 3-page article.
So, firstly, if anyone's interested in having a read, or wants me to reproduce any or all of it here, let me know. Ta!
Secondly, I emailed Danny Warrington about it, and said that as we obviously want the same thing here (to make people safer when riding xc) it's odd that we've come to absolutely opposite conclusions. He has very kindly suggested meeting me at Burghley to talk about it, which is a big result i hope.
At the BE meeting I mentioned this debate, and offered this idea:
to video different riders in various 'xc seats' being thrown off a mechanical bucking bull (or sheep, or camel, or whatever a variety of saddles will fit on!) to see which initial position affects landings the most, etc. I don't know if it's possible, at full tilt and speed, to mimic the beginning of a rotational, I haven't been on a bucking bull for years, but remember they were pretty fast!
BE "doesn't have any money for that sort of thing" i was told, so I'm floating it out there now. Does anyone know someone with a bucking bull or similar (with inflatable surround etc obv, i don't want anyone getting hurt!) which they might rent out at a reduced rate for this experiment?
Does anyone think this might be a valid idea, or have I utterly lost it?
Anyone else got a good video camera - we've got 2 here, we've got 1 at 24 frames per sec (t.v. quality) and 1 at 8.3. we don't have an HD one, apparently they're up to 1000 frames per second. obv if we do this, the more angles and pics, the better.
i'm happy to be 1 guinea pig, and i think i can pull in a few more crash test dummies if required!
If 10 people post that i've lost it, i'm giving up this lark and crawling back under my rock in the Fens...
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Brilliant idea! I would be a crash test dummy for you!

Sadly I am of no further help though!
 
You get brownie points for being imaginative - I'll give you that!! But I don't think a bucking bronco is quite what you're after. What you really want is someone who models crash test simulations on a computer and can programme a computer model of the forces involved in a rotational and then run the programme calculating for the difference in weight distribution of different saddle/positions/horse shapes etc. For that you probably want an engineering student - BE could probably get quite good value for their money (since PhD students are not even paid minimum wage, they get a stipend instead!!) by offering to fund a research PhD into it. I will ask around - I know a couple of engineering academics who might be able to point you in the right direction.
 
I think the bucking bull could work if you twiddled the controls, made it 'remote controlled' and slightly changed the mechanisms underneath it to recreate a more rolling movenment rather than the jerkiness which is used to get people who usually use it off.

However, your ideas are actually interesting- maybe ebay for a bucking bull?
 
Oooh fab, thanks Kit. BE did say i'd be better getting 1 of the universities involved, but i had no idea where to start.
won't it be difficult to take into account different styles of tumble, whether people tuck and roll from original position or not? i'm nice and close to Cambridge if you can get anyone interested... thanks so much.
drats, can't we have a big party with a bucking sheep anyway?
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k9h, consider yourself signed up on the 'crash test dummy' list!

NoSurrender, the last time i was on one, i'm sure it had a control for 'spin' and another one for 'bucking up and down' and then a separate speed one. obv no spin required, but if the second two were used, perhaps we could get something approximating a horse about to tip over a fence? i'll have a look on ebay. ta!
 
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See there you go with Kit someone with the brains!!

I would imagine they could computer in different styles of position into the computer to see if there is a different out come?

Oh I best warn you!
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So long as I land on my face I will do no damage
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good idea, but the mechanics of a bucking bull is (imo) very different to horse mechanics, and plus the fact that the actual "throwing" off of a rider is very different to how you would fall off on a horse.

You need to get a engineering/construction student who is horsey, so they can build a simulator or something like that, and then get their mate the equine science person to do a study on it and then test the different positions.

I would be very happy to be a test dummy btw
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I think this is a goer and would self-finance under the following rules: Ticket to ride at, say, £20 to include barbecue type food - preferably AFTER testing the idea out. Ticket to watch at, say, £10, to include food. Bring your own drink (other than a "stiffener" for the crash test dummies - sorry, riding guests).

PARTAY!

hire prices, off the top of my head, should be around £300 for four hours - so you'd need to organise 15 mugs, sorry XC riders, who fancied testing their seats to cover the cost and then extras to help with party cost.

Incidentally I have local contacts in the engineering testing industry - who might come along for a laugh but might also be useful in helping to model the results and scrutinising the videos.
 
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I can supply as many bucking bulls as you need for the cost of the grass they eat
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Now I may be the one to have lost it, but has anyone watched the falling of riders on pro bull riding?? In a way totally different, but may be something in it, if not a good evenings TV watching, Damn it I dont have sky any more!!

The problem I see with a bucking bronco is it is usually the spinning and change of direction that gets me off rather than the bucking, as the back end never comes over as far as in a rotational and the shoulder doesn't 'disappear' in the same way??

But Ill be a dummy anyway, always good fun LOL
 
Marymoo, that's what i wondered, i thought it might not tip up enough or fast enough.
only_me, i think you're right.
of course, there's that NED thing that they use as a 'horse' to run into fences, i wonder whether that tips up? could we get our mitts on that?
jemima_too, i think you might just have volunteered yourself as 'party organiser'...!
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you obviously have a much better business brain than me!
maybe we can make it a bit like paintball - you get points for where you fall, and they work out if you'd have been squished or not. hmm, there is a serious side to this...
 
The mehcanical horse thingys you can get lessons on, do they jump at all? I am sure they could be modified to become a "jump" horse so then could be programmed to buck etc.
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The one downside I can think of for the mechanical bull is that it's essentially just on the spot; it wouldn't have the momentum of a galloping horse, so it wouldn't perhaps be very good at replicating XC falls. If they could put one on rails; result!! I do think it would certainly be helpful to teach people to fall off (or stay on) for bucks.
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I'd be VERY interested in learning how to fall off and I'd be very interested in reading yours and NeilM's article
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Did you see the horse at badminton that was simulating a fall? Near one of the entrances. If you could find that company maybe you could hire that? It move forward and just buck at the end so just what you I guess?
I would be more than happy to be a guinea pig if you need any more!
 
K, at Badminton this year there were two guys on a stand with a mechanical horse that was set up to mimic a rotational fall: I can't remember for the life of me what the company was called but it might be worth dropping whoever organises the trade stands an email. They had a lifesize plastic horse, crash mats and a stunt rider who got slung off at speed when his 'horse' stopped violently and tipped right up to a headstand, does this sound like the kind of thing you're after? I remember walking away in disgust as many of the crowd thought it was hilarious watching the stunt guy get chucked off when what they were trying to do was mimic the avoidance of a fatal accident. Well, that was what I could fathom through crowds of people being only 5'2 and all
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I just wish I could remember what they were called...
 
Sounds like a brilliant idea to me, as only_me suggested an adaptation of a mechanical horse would probably be the most suitable.

However maybe studying how different people fall from different positions without focussing primarily on rotationals would surely be beneficial especially given the recent comments about how much "looser" people rode say 20 years ago and how fewer fatalities there were then compared with now; is some of it down to the type of saddle? Some saddles certainly hold you more in place than others which I personally dislike very much but do seem to be very popular these days
 
Great idea K - i would be very interested in how to fall A- for the eventing (managed to almost walk away from one rotational fall with just a broken leg.) and B - i think it would be great for the point to pointing as the likly hood i will fall off is pretty high even thou it would be a different type of fall.
 
Is there not some sort of mechanical horse used in race jockey training?... I'm sure I've seen one.

I think you deffo have a point about knowing 'how to fall' but I think it may contradict the trend towards ridgid and movement restricting inflating BPs. As I understand it it's best to curl and roll to minimise chance of getting trodden on and to roll so as to spread the impact (similar to the stance jockeys adopt when they fall) I think the more you make one part of the body stiff and reinforced what you also do is make the other parts not covered by the BP more vulnerable as the whole body cannot take the impact so it's pinpointed and will have more affect on the unprotected areas. eg imagine a sponge and a brick landing half on a log the sponge will wrap round the shape the force will spread throught it and it will recoil back, the brick will hit it hard and the full inpact of the fall will chip or dent the brick where it hits.

I think exos and that type are obvs better protection in a crushing fall but not the idea protection in any other type of fall. I think the racesafe has it sussed with the armadillo style piece to allow you to move normally but if this could be made with some kind of fabric that when hit with a certain force becomes ridgid then that would be the best of both worlds. Where or if such a fabric exists is anyones guess...

p.s. put me down on the crash test dummy list sounds like a laugh
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K, just checked the Badminton website as they've still got the trade stands map up, the stand was 93a, 'The Fall Simulator' tel 0032 495 696 712 Learning to fall: Prepare and Practice with a pro on a fall simulator. Good luck, I'm certainly not volunteering to get on the bloody thing but would love to watch anyone that does
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Bubbles, found it now, ta, i'm going to give them a call, only thing is, they're in Belgium! might need tigerseye's translation skills! at least it exists, so i don't have to try to get someone to make one, that's a really good start!
i'm happy to get on it, for some mad reason i still believe my bones have a bit of bounce in them! (and bone can bend through 17 degrees before it breaks, factfans - how do i know? because a surgeon told me... after operating on me...)

Chloe, you're spot on about all that, it's one of my biggest concerns about the Point2. because it makes the torso go rigid, other parts of the body might be more prone to hyperflexion... also, it stops the rider from tucking which might be why a lot of the riders in them are, i've been told, landing smack on top of their heads. Faith Cook's fall at Bramham is a really horrible example.
re: a fabric which goes hard on impact... guess what? it's been invented.
guess what? it's been used in motorbike protection for years.
guess what? someone thought of using it in horserider protection.
... it's already in a bp which is on the market...
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this is how it works, because i couldn't work out how it could 'know' how to harden on impact, and then soften again:
"Unlike Nitrile PVC which is effectively a solid material, the Knox HR foam is full of open and closed cells with air trapped within it, it is these open and closed cells that create convoluted passageways which lets the trapped air move freely, however when under load (impact) the air can't move freely so gets compressed and helps to absorb energy.
Think of it as a big hotel with lots of corridors with lots of people walking up and down, as long as everyone walks at the same pace without rushing everyone can move freely. But if there is a panic and everyone tries to rush the corridors easily get blocked very fast and people get compressed. As soon as the rush is over they start to move freely again."
amazing, huh? it's the KanTeq, btw. the foam doesn't degenerate with age either...
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and no, i'm not on commission, i'm v happy with my Exo (which i believe i will be able to roll in, fwiw) but i think it's a real shame for all foam bps to be lumped together, when the 'smart foam' in this one is so cutting edge!
 
Im in Cambridge and would be happy to help in any way i could, and have a friend who im sure would also be interested. I know someone with a degree in equine science who i am sure would also help if her brain could be of any use.
 
joseyjo88, any help or ideas much appreciated, thankyou. someone pm'd me about this and said
"Hmmm, sounds like BE are doing a bit of an ostrich act to me. I'm afraid in this day and age, it is no longer good enough to plead ignorance, a much more proactive approach to safety is required. In effect, you need to solve the problem (as much as you can) before it occurs."
I wholeheartedly agree.
Instead of trial and error (and let's face it, unless a rider is lucky, they might only get 1 chance to survive a rotational) we could do testing, and practise. maybe i'm totally wrong in my beliefs, but i want to know either way. if the Equicision guys, and I and Neil, came to diametrically opposite conclusions, but all obviously have the same aims, someone's got to be wrong...
also, jeez, we all practise dressage for hours every week, the odd bit of practising falling, for something so vital, sounds sensible to me.
 
would that protect against crushing though?... I invisage a fabric that needs to go rigid within seconds to prevent the weight of a horse crushing the rider. I do like the sound of these but I know the bulk will put me off...
 
K - I think it is a great idea!! Perhaps BE should fund it though!!

My experience with the bucking Bronco's (mechanical) is that, as they are TRYING to throw you off, and as you are already prepared and TRYING to stay on regardless - it is a different sort of excercise!!
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I asked for tips from the 'controller' when I first tried one (in a long dress at a Hunt Ball!!!).

He said that most people hang on by pulling upwards - when actually the only way to stay on was to push down and forward on the rope or collar (don't know if that makes any sense!!)

Doesn't really replicate a rotational fall, but I'm sure you could modify one to do the job.

I would back your idea - and even be a guinea pig!!
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So, a new idea as a theme for the British Eventing ball...? Wild West fancy dress, bucking (stopping at speed) broncos and lots and lots of video footage!!
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