XC - How to Fall - experiment idea - using a mechanical bucking bull!

Kerilli: I have long thought that people need to be taught how to fall!
Have PM'ed you re the article and my comment below.

I think the bucking bull is a good idea I am just dubious as to how realistic it would be. The 'rotating horse' from Belgium, which would be far more realistic. Not sure if you mean rotational falls or all falls
In terms of crash dummies, from an statistical/ moddling perspective to make the experiment as valid as possible you want ideally 25 dumies (sorry crash riders) minimum (as this is probably impossible 15...I think there have been that many offers allready!), and then ask them fall off more than once so that you get replicates of the results.
If possible get a mixture of riders from different levels, 3 would be good with 5 from each, so not sure of class names in England but, riders riding at: BE100 and less, BE100 - 2* and 2* - 4****.
Backgrond info on each rider i.e. where they learnt to ride (riding school/ hooning bareback on ponies/ hunting field), this may play apart in how they fall (based on MY observation only).
Have they ever done a sport like martial arts/ high jump that requires 'falling'.... etc.
 
got it Felicity, ta.
okay, bucking bull idea binned, not enough angle achieved, to start a mock 'rotational' the body of the 'horse' needs to get to vertical or more. the Belgian Fall Simulator horse sounds perfect.
i'll ring the guys in Belgium today and see what i get. i was hoping they might be at Burghley but it doesn't look as if they are, drats.
i don't think we'll have a shortage of volunteers for this, as long as the landing's soft enough!
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i won't be around on here today, but my latest idea is to ask MDIRF and/or Clare Lomas Walk charities if they like the idea, to make it into a fun evening's entertainment (and a bit more too, obv fun and a bit serious) or maybe more than 1 evening, as a profit-making exercise for them. Does anyone think this is a good idea? any better/other ideas very welcome!

Chloe, this 'smart foam' won't harden enough to protect against crushing from weight of falling horse - tbh i doubt any foam could. to be strong enough, you need internal bracing, basically an 'extra set of ribs' to stop the front touching the back no matter what, as in the Exo.
 
The Americans are currently working on fall safety.

There is an article in Aug 2009 Practical Horseman on how to fall, using Dutton as an example.

key factors were to mentally rehearse a stategy - therefore it comes naturally in the split second before you have before impact.

to use hands and arms to break a fall . their arguement is that these are easier to repair than necks and backs.

with regrd to a roll, this should be rolling the shoulder away from the horse rather than attempting a judo type roll.

they also rejected curling into a ball until after you have "landed".

assuming admin doesn't object to this, you can see the magazine at www.zinio.com. I think its about $3 for an issue and you can read online or download.

Admin: Practical Horseman is a very different publication to either Horse and Hound or Horse magazine, and does not pose competition in the UK market.
 
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The Americans are currently working on fall safety.

There is an article in Aug 2009 Practical Horseman on how to fall, using Dutton as an example.

key factors were to mentally rehearse a stategy - therefore it comes naturally in the split second before you have before impact.

to use hands and arms to break a fall . their arguement is that these are easier to repair than necks and backs.

with regrd to a roll, this should be rolling the shoulder away from the horse rather than attempting a judo type roll.

they also rejected curling into a ball until after you have "landed".

assuming admin doesn't object to this, you can see the magazine at www.zinio.com. I think its about $3 for an issue and you can read online or download.

Admin: Practical Horseman is a very different publication to either Horse and Hound or Horse magazine, and does not pose competition in the UK market.

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This sounds like a very similar article to the one in Eventing.

There are good and bad points in the article, but it is contradictory and in the series of photos it shows the rider staying with the horse throughout the fall. NO THANK YOU. That is 550kg's of dead weight which will be only too happy to squash you as flat as a bug!

There is too much in this thread to answer in detail.

K, you are completely barmy, and I full support your efforts and will be attempting to be catapulted from a mechanical horse at a riding centre near me.

What we need to find out is the different directions a rider can fall / be thrown in, during a rotational fall. The landing is a separate issue, and frankly, one that any decent Aikido or Judo instructor could teach in half a dozen one hour sessions. What is more important is how a body is thrown from the horse and how much distance can be gained from that horse.

Once we have an idea where and how the crash test dummy is thrown, then we can work out how best to survive that fall.

I am delighted by the number of positive responses to this thread. I have tended to keep my head down in this subject, as I usually get told 'oh I don't fall off' or ' I have been riding for numpteen years and not suffered an injury in all that time'. Well, some day everyone's luck runs out, and on that day you want presence of mind, training and skill on your side.
 
Brilliant K - am sure as long as there is (a) positive publicity for the charity, (b) some funds raised and most importantly (c) some worth while studies carried out then I cant see MDIRF having a problem with this (and also with their name behind something like this more will be encouraged to pay attention) also have you thought of contacting the Injured Jockeys Fund and say The Pony Club (dont groan - they would be interested I am sure - we lost a member last year in a rotational fall - jump was only about 2'6" so its a subject that is of great interest to me)
You can put me down for 2 tickets to 'the event' and daughter (Millbrook Song) has already volunteered as a crash test dummy I believe!
If you need any help with organising anything just give me a shout - am currently on a 4 day week due to this bloomin recession so have spare time!!
 
I watched the simulator at Badminton. They put a spectator on it who hadn't seen what it was going to do and 'launched him'.

The first time he was given no instructions and was just sat on the horse in a fairly relaxed position. When they flipped the horse he just flew face first into the mat, if the horse had really been falling it would have probably snapped his body over his head, or similar, not good.

The second time the operator had him standing up a little in his stirrups, but only leaning slightly forward (i.e. a forward seat for galloping) and told him to tuck his head forward and over to one side as the horse went over. I realsie he knew what was going to happen but this time he rolled off to one side and landed on his bum away from the horse.

I was quite impressed with the simulator, it moved at a realistic speed and upturn fast enough to catapult the dummy with a fair amount of force.
 
niceweatheronly, i mentioned exactly that article, if it's the one written by Danny Warrington and Mike Pilato with pictures of Phillip Dutton's rotational fall. Having seen those pictures of the fall, do you truly believe their claims that his position saved him from serious injury (or worse), when he landed face-down and the horse landed right beside him, and he suffered broken ribs. I think he was spot on when he said he was lucky.
the idea of pushing the feet home in the stirrups, sitting up in the saddle and keeping ones head up, in a rotational fall, frightens me to death.

Shazzababs, that sounds perfect, exactly what we need, i'm going to try contacting them now about it!
 
yes it was by the guys in today's horse and hound so probably is same article.

tbh I got mentaly stuck at the idea of visualising falling. yes, did a bit of judo as a child so can do the roll - not that I'm voulnteering for your bronco!

todays article has made me a bit cynical. I'm wondering how long it will be before they have the book and dvd for sale now they have everyone's attention.
 
I think a start would be gathering any video footage/ or sets of photographs showing rotationals, if anyone has any. If the crash test dummy then goes ahead you can compare these real falls to the simulated falls. Some sort of pressure sensors on te people falling of may also be of some help, so you can see exactly where they are falling, and im sure some fantastic computer program could use this information to help.
 
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i mentioned exactly that article, if it's the one written by Danny Warrington and Mike Pilato with pictures of Phillip Dutton's rotational fall. Having seen those pictures of the fall, do you truly believe their claims that his position saved him from serious injury (or worse), when he landed face-down and the horse landed right beside him, and he suffered broken ribs. I think he was spot on when he said he was lucky.
the idea of pushing the feet home in the stirrups, sitting up in the saddle and keeping ones head up, in a rotational fall, frightens me to death.

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Absolutely right

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whereas the ideas for practising falls which NeilM wrote out for me are totally free..

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And they give you a better chance of walking away, by designs, rather than luck.

EDIT: Oh, reading it back, that last comment looks REALLY arrogant, sorry.

What I mean is, that if you practice for such an eventuality, then if the worse thing happens, at least you have a chance of staying calm and controlling the landing, if not the fall.
 
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