XC thought for the day - would you ride a denerved horse xc?

kerilli

kerilli

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 April 2002
Messages
27,417
Location
Lovely Northamptonshire again!
Visit site
I've been told recently of two 4**** horses which have been denerved in both front legs. Also, a friend whose eventer is intermittently lame in front has been advised to do this by her vet, and is agonising over it.
Obviously the site of the denerving (how high it is up the leg) must make a huge difference, BUT I can't help thinking that any total numbness (even if only in the feet, perhaps) must make a difference to the horse. Might it make him/her clumsy... surely the last thing you want when going xc?!
Also, pain is there for a reason (to tell you to ease off the exercise because damage is being done), no? Or, is this too simplistic?
Surely if there's no pain getting through (due to denerving), but damage is still being done, there's a chance of catastrophic damage...?
Do you think BE should take a stance on this? Have random testing for lower limb/foot sensitivity, with very strong punishment for those caught?
Or, do you think it is totally up to the individual, and if they are managing to keep a good horse on the road this way, rather than retired or pts, good for them, it's their risk and their choice?
btw, I'm trying to sit on the fence on this one (for once!), as I really don't know what to think... I don't think I'd do it, but I don't know if there should be a rule against it either.
 
I think it up to vets to act in a professional manner for the benefit of the horse.
Personally I think it should not be allowed and I certainly wouldnt do it to my own horse and then carry on competing it.
I'd have thought de-nerved horses would be pretty apparent in the sj phase- surely not many horses would remain careful if there was no element of pain when they hit the poles....?

I'm not convinced it would have an overly large affect on xc- many horses rattle xc jumps with no consequences, when they fall it's generally due to a more serious error of judgement which is surely more linked to vision?
 
I'm against it in competition horses - I do think the risk of further damage is too great and I would never risk a horse this way. The only time I would consider it is for a horse either not being ridden or lightly ridden, to eliminate otherwise untreatable pain, but I don't really know how likely it is that this type of treatment would be at all necessary?!!

I'm in the "pain is there for a reason" camp!
 
I must admit i do agree with you that i wouldn't do it. Pain is there for a reason, as is lameness, even if the vet etc can find nothing wrong, there must be something wrong to cause the pain. You would never ride a lame horse around a xc, surely denerving the horse is just removing the signs of lameness, but not removing the lameness so effectively you would be riding a lame horse around xc.

Sorry if that is totally rubbish and makes no sense! it is early still
grin.gif
!

ETA just realised that in the time it took me to write my ramblings everyone else summed up what i was trying to say much better!
grin.gif
 
i would not jump a denerved horse at all- let alone go xc on one.

firstly the worry of them not realising they are hitting fences and may get lower and lower= higher risk of a fall.

secondly, what if they do a tendon or similar while denerved- the damage caused would be awful BUT also the leg would doubtlessly be weaker; increasing the chances of the horse crumpling on landing if the horse and rider are carrying on oblivious to the weakened leg?
 
Mm, a lot of event horses who have had PSD ( very common now) have been denerved, in fact the FEI now approves de-nerving for this particular condition- there was one horse on the Euro event team that was! But that is only one branch of the suspensory that is numb.

I think you have a fair point tho. It does depend on the horse. If it was super careful, super quick with its legs and super sharp in its reactions- I would consider denerving larger parts of a limb. If it was a slow horse with dangling legs, I would perhaps be more wary.

I would have absolutely no issues with doing XC on a denerved horse but only if it was the sharp reactive type that really does know where its feet are/the pony clever type.

I dont think it would ever make a horse clumsy, unless someone went the whole way and denerved a whole leg
confused.gif


I do absolutely agree that to denerve may well cause a build up of severe damage elsewhere in the horse's body. But I guess that if you have got to the point where you need to denerve ( i.e you have tried everything and just cant keep the horse sound) then what have you got to loose by denerving- you get a few more usefull years out of the horse... and if you keep an eagle eye out for any compensatory damage occuring, then you can stop competing them before the damage becomes too severe.
 
I believe that a horse which has been denerved cannot be competed under FEI rules in any equestrian discipline!! So there is already an existing rule in place for horses competing at higher levels although obviously nobody is paying much attention to it!

Realistically how easy it would be to monitor a lower levels I don't know - vets walking around the lorry park poking at random horses heels may upset a few people!!
 
As far as I'm aware, the neurectomy results in loss of sensation to the back of the foot only - proprioception (knowing where your limbs are at any one time without having to look) is not dependent on having sensation in the whole foot, it's dependent on the signals from the muscles being used. There might be some functional deficit but it is also quite likely that the brain would remap to compensate for that. In any case, a horse that hits fences would be most likely to hit them in front where he still has sensation.

The other consideration would be the possibility of phantom pain. When you sever peripheral nerves, they not only regrow but can spontaneously fire, leading to pain without the apinful stimulus. Amputees get it a lot.

This doesn't take into account the ethics of denerving however. Very grey area. I don't think I'd do it for one of mine just to keep him competing, somehow it feels unfair on the horse. And I probably wouldn't do it to keep a horse field sound either. But we do it regularly for the hind suspensories, should it be any different for the front legs as well?


ETS:- just a final thought. I would be extremely wary of denerving a young horse as so much of the jumping technique needs the full sensation to judge the landings on drops etc. But an experienced older horse at 4* might be a better bet as the brain is well established in its judgement of fence height, how to land etc.
 
I wouldn't ever have a horse denerved. If an animal is in pain and there is no way to remedy that than to remove the funtion of its nerves!!!! then imho it's time to retire it/pts. There are plenty more horses out there to bring on and compete, and this one clearly is no longer capable of it.

Vet science is a wonderful thing but you have to wonder about the motivation behind this practise it's certainly not for the horse's benefit, which should always be the first consideration imho. I would take the horse bute it so it had pain relief and give it a nice life retired in a paddock.

Can you imagine denerving a top level athlete? there would be uproar!
 
fascinating, kit, thankyou... i didn't realise it only numbs the back of the foot, it's not something i know anything much about (obviously!)
since the horse has no muscles below the knee though, would this affect the proprioception? do the tendons and ligaments contribute at all to proprioception?
i know about phantom pains, my cousin had a leg amputated above the knee a few years ago, and still gets very specific acute and chronic pains from the limb that isn't there, e.g. a suddenly freezing cold foot, etc etc. very very odd.
dragon22, is that really true, about denerving being banned under FEI rules? if so, it's being flouted a LOT, i believe...
Chloe, i can see your point, and while I agree, because I'm a pathetic softy, I can also understand that if you have a horse capable of winning at very top level (and they are neither easy to find, make, or replace!) that ANYTHING you can do to keep it sound and on the road, even something potentially disastrous (or not, i'm unsure) would be very tempting... and of course I guess £££s come into it to...
 
[ QUOTE ]
The other consideration would be the possibility of phantom pain. When you sever peripheral nerves, they not only regrow but can spontaneously fire, leading to pain without the apinful stimulus. Amputees get it a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a program about this a guy had lost both his legs and he said all he wanted to do was scratch his feet, he had uncontrollable urges to scratch itchy feet and it was a constant irritation for him.
 
yes, the reason my friend isn't having her horse denerved is that he is a super-sensitive weirdo anyway (he used to go utterly NUTS if someone pointed at him, I kid you not) and she thinks he'd stand there going "what is UP with my feet?!?!!?!?" and being totally weirded out... she couldn't do that to him.
 
Kerilli, as far as I am aware that is the case - OH is an equine vet and we have spoken about it before.

I think it is one of those things that it is very hard to judge how you would react until you are in the situation. It is something that I had to think about last year when my own horse went bi-laterally lame in front, as it was after MRI the damage wasn't as bad as we originally thought so was successfully treated conservatively - but I will admit that denerving was something I did think about as a possibility.
 
Yes, proprioception is mostly done by stretch receptors in the tendons and ligaments, the sensation of the foot hitting the floor is the final feedback to say whether the horse made a good call or not!
 
I just think it's a step too far, but maybe I'm just not 100% in the picture of what actually goes into getting and keeping a horse at 4* level?.... It seems we go to more and more extreem lenghts at the horse's expense eg rollkur and denerving. Where does it stop?... will we be denerving backs in 5 years time to keep riding horses with kissing spine/spinal issues?...

just because we can doesn't mean we should

Maybe I'm being naive when I think you should be able to compete up to 4* with good managment, feed, and training without the need for veterinary intervention and a multitude of gadgets and gizmos.....is that the unrealistic hope of a grass roots rider?...
 
[ QUOTE ]
I just think it's a step too far, but maybe I'm just not 100% in the picture of what actually goes into getting and keeping a horse at 4* level?.... It seems we go to more and more extreem lenghts at the horse's expense eg rollkur and denerving. Where does it stop?... will we be denerving backs in 5 years time to keep riding horses with kissing spine/spinal issues?...

just because we can doesn't mean we should

Maybe I'm being naive when I think you should be able to compete up to 4* with good managment, feed, and training without the need for veterinary intervention and a multitude of gadgets and gizmos.....is that the unrealistic hope of a grass roots rider?...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm fully with you on this Chloe - I think it's a step too far. There is also the added risk that horses, particularly mares, who have a genetic tendency to a condition causing lameness, will be bred from and pass on this tendency if the resulting lameness is masked. The ability to mask these problems will enable a horse to get to the top of the field where normally it would have been retired beforehand - if its performance continues to be good at the top there will always be an inclination to breed.
 
I absolutely wouldn't jump a denerved horse for the reasons others have already stated.

TBH, I really am surprised that BE don't already have a rule against competing horses like this... Surely it is performance enhancing since otherwise the horse would be lame!
 
thanks Dragon. Hmm, well, if it really is against FEI rules that means a whole new oil drum of worms could open up if it gets out that these horses are denerved.
thanks kit, that makes sense, fascinating stuff.
Chloe, i think it is one horse in literally thousands that is tough enough, brave enough, scopey enough, trainable enough to get to 4*. there are lots of us still looking for that horse!
wink.gif
wink.gif
so, i can understand the "i'll do anything to keep him/her going" viewpoint.
a LOT of top horses have routine injections into joints etc etc. i'm pretty sure they'd be too lame to compete without them. i know of someone who went to try a 4 yr old and it had spots of blood on its front joints... jeez, if they are having to inject a 4 yr old to keep it sound, what hope do we have?! seriously, i can understand it with an older horse, but ffs.
camilla4, i agree with you, i suppose the saving grace is that most eventers are geldings, and most future event horses are not bred from mares who evented to top level (who are a very select band anyway.)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I just think it's a step too far, but maybe I'm just not 100% in the picture of what actually goes into getting and keeping a horse at 4* level?.... It seems we go to more and more extreem lenghts at the horse's expense eg rollkur and denerving. Where does it stop?... will we be denerving backs in 5 years time to keep riding horses with kissing spine/spinal issues?...

just because we can doesn't mean we should

Maybe I'm being naive when I think you should be able to compete up to 4* with good managment, feed, and training without the need for veterinary intervention and a multitude of gadgets and gizmos.....is that the unrealistic hope of a grass roots rider?...

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree Chloe, and very well said!
 
Well i'm not too sure exactly what this is, but no. You need a horse to react quickly-which they must to to avoid falls and mistakes, and if they are denerved the accident-prevention does not come into play. Pain is good in a way, as if a horse hits its leg by hitting a jump-it wont do it again(well we hope it has learnt its lesson, showjumping in particular), and if there is no pain there is no reason to be more careful.

Having said that, stupid Duncan has such frail little feet and legs that I bet I need to do something latr in life, if he hits one he is convinced he is lame, so if I was in the position for Burghley 2013, and I had to have him denerved would I? Yes, tbh to compete at thet level would be amazing and I will do what I can to get there, he is a mega careful horse anyway.

Sorry if my input has no sense, hope I know what i'M talking about!
 
Having gone through PSD de-nerving twice, I've been told it ONLY removes the branch of nerve that supplies the top of the suspensory ligament, the horse can still feel the lower section of the suspensory and all the other areas in it's leg and hoof.
(Yes I shall now double check about the back of the hoof when I next see my vet)
So the horse can still feel pain and sense where it's limb is as per normal so I do not see why any horse should be banned from any form of competition after this procedure.
I am also in the unusual situation of knowing a human who is denerved in her legs. For her this is what allows her to stay out of wheel chair and because she can move it increases her blood flow and actually slows the progression of her disease.
If a horse had a similar condition to my friend I wouldn't have problem with it being denerved but you'd have to keep one hell of an eye on it.
 
Chloe GHE - It does take a fair amount of veterinary intervention to keep top horses fit and on the road. General wear and tear are bound to take there toll over time and if veterinary medicine can help then why not use what is available - albeit remaining within the rules of the regulatory body.

With regard to kissing spines, although not denerving, horses do have surgical procedures (DSP resection) in order that they can continue to compete at top level - I know of at least one 4* horse who has had this procedure done several years ago before it had even competed at the level.
 
[ QUOTE ]

a LOT of top horses have routine injections into joints etc etc. i'm pretty sure they'd be too lame to compete without them. i know of someone who went to try a 4 yr old and it had spots of blood on its front joints... jeez, if they are having to inject a 4 yr old to keep it sound, what hope do we have?! seriously, i can understand it with an older horse, but ffs.
camilla4, i agree with you, i suppose the saving grace is that most eventers are geldings, and most future event horses are not bred from mares who evented to top level (who are a very select band anyway.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true Kerilli but still against the whole idea! The story of the four year old is just horrible! I do admit to being ignorant re: the ruling on this though..
 
Dragon22 how many top level horses would you say have had some sort of major veterinary intervention? percentage wise?...

I would be interested to know which horses currently at that level are 'intervention free' as it were

What does that opperation you described on the spine entail?...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what would you think if it was a person in pain, who had the opportunity to have similar operation to relieve the pain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a chronic pain sufferer myself and I would jump at anything that would solve it! I think it is different - to perform this type of procedure on a horse to enable it to continue performing for our benefit is not the same as relieving suffering at rest in a horse, or to treat a human in pain who is capable of informed consent and understands the potential repercussions.
 
I wouldn't like to say percentage wise, I am not a vet just married to one! But I think you would be suprised at how many horses do have "routine" veterinary procedures to keep them on the road. You only have to read this forum to see how many people have experienced surgery for lameness, joint injections etc..the majority of these horses would only be competing at lower levels (no offense to anyone) not having to undertake the rigours of competing at for example 4* eventing.

See quote below from Sven Kold - article published in H&H regarding kissing spine surgery (DSP resection).

"After the incision we cut through the supraspinous ligament. Once all muscular and ligamentous attachments are severed down either side, we cut off around half the spinal processes, removing about three inches of bone. Next, the ligaments and skin are sutured. After the procedure, a void is left, as the bone doesn't re-grow and a blood clot forms, followed by fibrous tissue"

Not the most pleasant sounding of procedures but for some horses the only way they can continue athletic careers.
 
I make the important distinction that a person who is in pain is able to give consent for any treatment they receive. In giving that consent, the person would need to take into consideration the effect of the pain on their daily life. Arguably someone who cannot be mobile without an op, who can't brush their hair, put on their clothes without pain is in need of treament of some kind.

The flip side of that argument is the serious international athlete. I knew of one such who was shortlisted for Beijing and having spent the best part of a decade trying to get to that kind of consistency of performance, he was understandly prepared to do whatever it took to go to Beijing. He ended up having an op (don't really want to go into specifics here) which would allow him to compete. It would not have been necessary for you or I in order to go about our day-to-day activities but for him personally, the things he wanted to do in life required him to be painfree. So he had it - it was competition legal but ethically?

It rather boils down to the owner, who has to give 'consent' for the horse. If you have spent a long time and an enormous amount of money trying to get your horse to 4* and there is a treatment that allows the horse to carry on, you can see the point even if you don't agree with it. I'm in no way siding with the various animal rights activists who pop up every time there's a horse fall and say 'it's cruel to make horses event' but it is up to the individal owner and rider to make that call on behalf of the horse.

Do we make the distinction between the horses who require regular joint injections to keep them sound enough to compete? Arguably they are in discomfort too. I think the fact that the treatment is available and is used is probably a reflection of the greater veterinary diagnostics that are available today. We used to pinfire, now we have stem cell treatments etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top