XL Bullies are out. For the chav-about-town, this season's accessory dog is...

[scruffyponies]

The next 'status dog' was always going to be worse than the (loyal and steady, but not good with dogs) APBT or the (generally lazy and affable, but huuge) XL bully.
Jeremy Clarkson was quite correct when he described the creation of the (hypothetical) 'Wolftronic'.

I'm starting to see adverts for "Bull Herders". I had to look it up. Seems to be an APBT or American Bully crossed with a Malinois.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yeah there's a guy who has been crossing bull breeds with Dutch Herders for a while, which is where the name is coming from, rather than Malis.

I wouldn't do it and think it's a stupid cross, and that most crosses are stupid, but like I say, it's nothing new I don't know of them causing any real problems with the public, because very few of these guys know anything about working breeds/genetics/temperament and just think any dog will do for breeding if it has the bits.

 

[misst]

The next 'status dog' was always going to be worse than the (loyal and steady, but not good with dogs) APBT or the (generally lazy and affable, but huuge) XL bully.
Jeremy Clarkson was quite correct when he described the creation of the (hypothetical) 'Wolftronic'.

I'm starting to see adverts for "Bull Herders". I had to look it up. Seems to be an APBT or American Bully crossed with a Malinois.

Sounds an ideal pet for families. Is it good with babies? Does it cuddle up with small children and let them pull it's ears. Can it go on ticktock showing what a lovely furbaby it is? I can't wait to meet one off lead being "friendly".

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

A lady I met in the woods says her daughter is in the Met and is seeing an increase in Rottweilers and gsds. She herself has a rather gorgeous liver dobie and a blue eyed Boston, curious pair.

 

[JBM]

I mean there’s always going to be the next “problem” dog because no one is putting regulations in place for owners

 

[I'm Dun]

The next 'status dog' was always going to be worse than the (loyal and steady, but not good with dogs) APBT or the (generally lazy and affable, but huuge) XL bully.
Jeremy Clarkson was quite correct when he described the creation of the (hypothetical) 'Wolftronic'.

I'm starting to see adverts for "Bull Herders". I had to look it up. Seems to be an APBT or American Bully crossed with a Malinois.

People need to stop describing XLs in terms like this.

Generally lazy and affable until the bad genetics kick in and they snap without warning and attack and kill needing stabbing, tasering and shooting before they stop is a more accurate description.

I was never in favour of BSL, but right now I would support every single dog of type being humanely PTS. Anyone found with one after that point should get a standard and mandatory 10yrs in prison and huge fine. It is the only way this will stop. People will just not accept that they shouldnt have been created, and are now creating new versions.

 

[Cortez]

Considering the latest legislation has only been in place for a month it's a bit early for anything "new", but there have always been weird crosses out there. The first time I saw a "bull-lurcher" was years ago, and it was just wrong on every level then. Good luck with a PT X Dutch Herder: what on earth is that supposed to be for?

 

[CorvusCorax]

If a higher percentage of bull herder types were killing and maiming people they'd also be subject to legislation, but they're not. And they're not new.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Good luck with a PT X Dutch Herder: what on earth is that supposed to be for?

Big brindle heads. Being stubborn slightly faster and more stylishy than a bull breed.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think bull lurchers appeal to those who work their dogs because they are tenacious and can bring down bigger prey.

I don't know what you would use a bull herder for.

 

[Cortez]

I think bull lurchers appeal to those who work their dogs because they are tenacious and can bring down bigger prey.

I don't know what you would use a bull herder for.

Bull herding? But I doubt they'd be much use at it, nor that there'd be a huge demand for such a service.

 

[Clodagh]

Bull lurchers are good for killing foxes, badgers and deer. I don't know of any ever biting people.

 

[Cortez]

Bull lurchers are good for killing foxes, badgers and deer. I don't know of any ever biting people.

Badgers are a protected species, if they're hunting them it's illegal, as is lamping deer.

 

[Ratface]

I mean there’s always going to be the next “problem” dog because no one is putting regulations in place for owners

What regulations do you think would be possible for current or would-be owners? I don't think that irresponsible and/or unsuitable owners of large, potentially dangerous dogs are going to be any less feckless and/or irresponsible. Depressing, really.

 

[JBM]

What regulations do you think would be possible for current or would-be owners? I don't think that irresponsible and/or unsuitable owners of large, potentially dangerous dogs are going to be any less feckless and/or irresponsible. Depressing, really.

Already stated much of what I think on the banning XL bullies thread

 

[Clodagh]

Badgers are a protected species, if they're hunting them it's illegal, as is lamping deer.

Well yes but people do lots of illegal things. We used to find horribly mutilated fallow deer carcasses when we lived in Essex, that had been killed by dogs.

 

[twiggy2]

Badgers are a protected species, if they're hunting them it's illegal, as is lamping deer.

Like many things it doesn't stop people doing it.
Bull blood was introduced to lurchers to increase drive, size and tenacity. It was mostly bred in for badger and deer 'work' as a first cross, it also produces cracking dogs when they are bred back to running dogs.
Lil was 1 12th collie, 1 16th collie and the rest was greyhound, she was the only bitch and her brothers all threw really heavily to the bull and looked like first Cross bull greyhound.
Maz has bullie in her too.
Makes for very biddable dogs but the bullies bit is staff generally.

 

[scruffyponies]

Considering the latest legislation has only been in place for a month it's a bit early for anything "new", but there have always been weird crosses out there. The first time I saw a "bull-lurcher" was years ago, and it was just wrong on every level then. Good luck with a PT X Dutch Herder: what on earth is that supposed to be for?

Bull lurchers have been popular with the travelling community for 100 years. They're excellent rabbit hunting dogs, so keep a meal on the table for the owner.

 

[scruffyponies]

What regulations do you think would be possible for current or would-be owners? I don't think that irresponsible and/or unsuitable owners of large, potentially dangerous dogs are going to be any less feckless and/or irresponsible. Depressing, really.

Existing laws against using a dog as a weapon, abusing it, or not controlling it in public are quite adequate, but would require police to respond and act, which isn't going to happen.

I would propose a simple process. Dog warden visits any reported 'dog of concern' (any breed/type). Give them the power to assess on premises (if obviously friendly) or seize for a more formal assessment. Dog of good character would be returned to owners with no further action or appropriate advice - possibly even behavioural help (now there's a thought!). Questionable dog receives an additional chip and comes under muzzle/lead restrictions.

I would also suggest that anyone with a criminal record should be subject to greater restriction on either owning certain types of dog, or how much leeway they are given if there's a complaint. 'Dog probation', if you like.

 

[scruffyponies]

Generally lazy and affable until the bad genetics kick in and they snap without warning and attack and kill needing stabbing, tasering and shooting before they stop is a more accurate description.

I have looked at the statistics and I just don't buy this. Not saying it can't happen, and poor breeding does make it more likely (famously Cocker Spaniels in the '70s). However, deaths have been broadly stable vs dog population for 30+years and the most likely 'culprit' breed (although this is a generalisation - many breeds been responsible) has changed to whatever was the latest status dog at the time. Same owners, different dog.

I only know one friend who had an APBT. It was an amazing dog and used to play with my children when they were small.
Nice people raise great dogs (of whatever breed), and equally great kids. Sadly many people aren't fit to raise either.

A huge powerful dog with strong chase/herd/guard instincts makes the job of raising it as a 'great dog' much harder, and would leave most out of their depth. In the wrong hands it would be a total liability.

 

[Cortez]

I have looked at the statistics and I just don't buy this. Not saying it can't happen, and poor breeding does make it more likely (famously Cocker Spaniels in the '70s). However, deaths have been broadly stable vs dog population for 30+years and the most likely 'culprit' breed (although this is a generalisation - many breeds been responsible) has changed to whatever was the latest status dog at the time. Same owners, different dog.

I only know one friend who had an APBT. It was an amazing dog and used to play with my children when they were small.
Nice people raise great dogs (of whatever breed), and equally great kids. Sadly many people aren't fit to raise either.

A huge powerful dog with strong chase/herd/guard instincts makes the job of raising it as a 'great dog' much harder, and would leave most out of their depth. In the wrong hands it would be a total liability.

What statistics have you looked at? There has been an exponential increase in dog attacks and fatalities: not only “can” it happen, it unquestionably has. Cocker spaniels are nippy little sods, they are extremely unlikely to bait, worry and kill you.

 

[skinnydipper]

I'm not brilliant at sums so I took a peek at ONS stats

In England deaths by dog attack

2019 2
2020 3
2021 5
2022 5
2023 14

That looks like an increase to me.

 

[skinnydipper]

and the Centre for Evidence-Based Regulation of Dangerous Dogs said the breed* is estimated to represent less than 1% of UK dogs but was behind 44% of attacks in 2023 and 75% of deaths in the last three years.

*XL bullies

CEBRDD are a group of professionals and academics.

 

[OlderNotWiser]

My son is in the Kent police force and they had a briefing about XL Bullies, and a new cross breed, Boxweilers, were mentioned as apparently they are gaining popularity locally.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Nice people raise great dogs (of whatever breed), and equally great kids. Sadly many people aren't fit to raise either.

A huge powerful dog with strong chase/herd/guard instincts makes the job of raising it as a 'great dog' much harder, and would leave most out of their depth. In the wrong hands it would be a total liability.

Sorry but this just isn't true. Many 'nice' people have been killed by their own or other people's dogs. Or are you saying that all the people killed by dogs were bad people? All those dogs were being abused?
If only bad people/chavs want to own XL bullies, what does that say about them as a breed/type?

And yet again it's this 'it's not the dog, it's the owner' thing, completely discounting the huge part that genetics plays.
I'm not saying any of this for fun, it's not to be argumentative or contrary, it's my own experience of dealing with countless numbers of other people's dogs and sitting geeking out over pedigrees since I was a kid.
What we do as humans plays only a part in how our dogs turn out, and that's only when we KNOW the genetics.

As, I'm guessing, one of the very few people on this thread who has actually been around Dutch Herders, I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.
They're pretty rare and not in widespread use as either police or sports and there's a reason for that. A lot of folks used to call them 'Dumb Dutchies'. You can get good ones but a not so good one? You'd have a better time trying to train a brick.
I really don't think I'm going to see many of these crosses about the place.

Deflecting onto some idiots doing a stupid cross because you don't agree with the legislation, ain't it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just to add that there are some impressive herders in KNPV but it's unlikely the good ones are going to be sold out of NL to people in England to breed with bull types.
And there's a lot of mixing with Malis.

 

[AmyMay]

Nice people raise great dogs (of whatever breed), and equally great kids. Sadly many people aren't fit to raise either.

That’s really not always the case, on both fronts.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I would encourage anyone with a genuine interest in dogs, training, behaviour, genetics etc to volunteer or help out in a training club/class/rescue/kennels etc, it will teach you so much more about dogs (and people) than simply looking at your own dogs who live in your home.

Especially if you see the result of several generations of various breedings in different homes with different training styles, it really will change your view of 'it's not the dog, it's the owner' and you can end up being able to tell a dog's heritage by the way it is behaving or how it looks.

Of course it is much, much harder to come to this conclusion with so many cross breedings and mixings and nothing written down/recorded.
It might sound snobby but it's a lot easier to deal with the known than the unknown. People have mental or physical genetic ticking timebombs living in their home and they don't even realise it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My son is in the Kent police force and they had a briefing about XL Bullies, and a new cross breed, Boxweilers, were mentioned as apparently they are gaining popularity locally.

The boxer half really wouldn't worry me. Apart from the potential to keel over from a heart condition.

 

[Wishfilly]

In my opinion, there's an awful lot of dog breeds out there that are never going to make really good family pets (and perhaps controversially, I think people who work outside the home 5 days a week are always going to struggle to offer a suitable home to any dog). It's always going to be possible for those who want to create an intimidating/aggressive dog breed/cross to do it. One of the reasons XL bullies became popular was because Pit Bulls were banned, right?

Whilst I totally think genetics influence both behaviour and ability to do damage, I don't think breed specific legislation can work, because unless you make it much wider ranging, banning all dogs of a broad "type", it's not going to be effective. But even then people could go down the route of Akitas or large LGDs or similar if they really just wanted a dog that could be trained to aggression and to do some damage?

At this stage, I wonder if the best way forward would be trying to legislate a lot more around breeding to try and discourage irresponsible breeding of all kinds. This sort of legislation would hopefully also have lots of welfare benefits too.