Yard owners own horses

[smellsofhorse]

not experienced it myself but they can do what they want.
its their yard!

 

[Mossi]

Just because they have 150 acres doesn't mean they want to run horses all over it. They may be managing it badly in your eyes, but it is their land to manage how they want and they do offer a service, maybe not the one you want but are your expectations realistic. Describing stables as 'cages' and their extended use as 'cruelty' is a bit extreme. Whilst not ideal, managed properly it is neither cruel or poor welfare, leaving a horse out in a cold, water logged field, allowing it to be a 'horse' would in my books be pretty heartless.
Since the weather has been pretty intolerable this winter perhaps a bit more tolerance wouldn't go amiss, you never know, come the drier, lighter evenings the yard may not be so bad.

They don't need to run horses over the whole 150 acres nor is there any need for horses to be standing in water logged fields. The fields are not water logged as they are hilly with plenty of places to escape the mud and not all of them are used for cutting haylage. The typical mindset though is that the alternate to turnout in the winter is to stable for long periods, rather than using other ideas, strip grazing, paddock paradise, strawed areas etc. And this mindset is prevalent even in years where the weather has been good. A few hours turnout daily could be managed with some effort and many livery clients are willing to help out here, but there are some very old fashioned attitudes towards horse keeping and stabling and winter turnout. I did not suggest that horses are kept out constantly in muddy water logged fields (and horses can actually cope with the cold even though humans can't, but anthropomorphism always prevails - and they can be rugged if necessary), but I object to and always will, to forcing a horse into a relatively tiny area for hours on end, which goes against everything a horse is. I personally would not run a livery yard if I couldn't provide a better deal for horses and if I did I would like to think I would be diplomatic and listen to clients concerns about what is provided in order to best keep their horses, and this way it might even be more lucrative. As well as being a very reliable payer and respectful of property and very tidy, I have also offered to pay more money for daily winter turnout in order to help maintain the land. As many have said, it's the YO land, so they can do what they like and you can lump it if you don't like it, basically, but is that really the best way. Maybe if land/farm/YO feel that way, it would better if they reconsider and don't take on liveries in the first place rather than everyone be unhappy.

 

[Mossi]

Move if you don't like it, their yard, their land, their rules!

I'm a YO, and yes mine do have the best paddocks but they have the same turnout as the liveries (at the moment around 2-3 hours per day as it's so wet).

....yes, and our horses. At least you have still provided some turnout for your livery horses, so if you can do it why don't others.

 

[Suzannebart]

*waves long time lurker, first time poster*

Hmm, it's a difficult one, I've been on a yard where all horses were in a field all the time, and that wasn't great for them, and on a yard run similarly to the one you are on. At the end of the day, these people probably had horses, spare space and thought hey livery yard! So their horses are a priority and you guys are managed. I don't really find it unfair, at least you are getting some turn out. With the weather, and all sometimes you just have to except that all management ideas are great in a perfect world.

The yard my boy is at at the moment has 0 turnout, all year, despite having way over 1000 acres of land, we pay extortionate amounts, but we get world class facilities in return for this sacrifice. Not ideal for most, but manageable with effort, and easy for me because my boy is repulsed by being turned out. (and once he is done 'training' round the outside of any field, returns to his stable over fences, down roads, etc.,)

Everyone manages differently, but as everyone above has said, their land, their rules. Everyone could say they would never do it, but few get the chance to prove it.

 

[wiglet]

No restrictions on turnout at my yard and YOs horses are turned out just like everyone else's. however, I have been on yards where a two tier system seems to be in place - y'know, YOs friends get more turnout, more storage, the best hay, bigger stables etc. not fair IMO but all you can do is move yards... But sometimes it's better the devil you know...

 

[Mossi]

Hey it doesn't have to be a perfect world, we could all do better for horses with some effort. Why does everyone just give in too easily?

 

[charlie76]

I am a yard owner and I do put my horses out in the slightly better fields BUT this is because I only put mine out for four hours a day and I keep them in if very wet. The liveries are split into two other fields, four horses in ten acres and two horses and a pony in four acres at the moment. The liveries go out for at least four to six hours every day. However, if its very wet they might stay in as I am trying to preserve the ground in this extreme weather.
The gate ways in all the fields are deep and wet, I can't do much about it as the weather is terrible. They all have grass in the fields though and do not eat the hay I put out. I have also made the decision to keep them in the same fields until a dry spell as if I move them all the fields will be wrecked. I currently have fifteen acres resting.

 

[Suzannebart]

No it doesn't have to be a perfect world, but sometimes you just have to make the best out of a bad situation, and hopefully it will improve (fingers crossed) with improved weather.

All management styles take effort, so more so then others, and all should be flexible to changing circumstances. If more fields are saved now, you'll have more for the summer.

 

[1t34]

I do wonder about a couple of things here.

I keep mine on full livery - on a very small yard where there is only full livery, with someone I consider a friend. My horse is kept as if he is one of the YO - at times having preferential treatment (including turnout). She is offering me a service which I pay well for, as she is a professional, with huge expertise and a real feeling for the individual needs of horses. I have been on full livery on a larger competition yard, where the full liveries and YO horses got the best grazing (perhaps as we were paying just short of 900 pounds a month compared to 25 pounds per week for DIY), but not enough turnout for my liking. I asked for more turnout but it didn't happen, so with no fuss I gave notice and moved, no hard feelings. Very professional set up but not providing the service I required.

With DIY costing so little how these businesses survive and allow for investment in things like better turnout or alternatives such as sand pens, perhaps this coupled with perhaps less professionalism/business sense leads to situations where YO feel it is their right to keep the best for their own. Not very fair and in the real business world usually not a successful strategy.

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Why aren't you on GRASS LIVERY OP? You clearly don't want your horse stabled, so look for a yard that OFFERS the SERVICE you actually want!

 

[Mossi]

I'm not objecting to my horse being stabled, but I think it is only fair to the horse to be allowed out to roam free somewhere for a least a few hours a day in the winter. Many of the livery yards in my area, however, do not allow this and haven't done for many years whatever the weather, so I was suggesting that they possibly might look into alternatives to keeping horses stabled for long periods in the winter, but as I said in my original post, the yard I am presently at allows their own two ponies very good winter turnout but the liveries (DIY, but the most expensive in the area) have been restricted to alternate days and can only use a small part of a very rough field containing a few hazards, despite the place having large acreage that could be managed more suitably now that they have decided to have horses on the farm - they still have a lot of extra rougher land that would be suitable for horses, that they don't use for cutting or even for summer grazing. There is also no enclosure to put your horse in when mucking out and there are not enough tie up rings. If you try and suggest/dare to ask for improvements you just get told, if you don't like it leave, which I have done numerous times (I've never been thrown off, I've just moved for better turnout that always turns pear-shaped eventually).

 

[Enfys]

I'm not objecting to my horse being stabled, but I think it is only fair to the horse to be allowed out to roam free somewhere for a least a few hours a day in the winter. Many of the livery yards in my area, however, do not allow this and haven't done for many years whatever the weather, so I was suggesting that they possibly might look into alternatives to keeping horses stabled for long periods in the winter, but as I said in my original post, the yard I am presently at allows their own two ponies very good winter turnout I am sorry but I still don't see the problem. I keep paddocks solely for the use of my own horses too - I have my reasons but I do not feel the need to justify anything I do with my own horses, on my own property to anyone else but the liveries (DIY, but the most expensive in the area) have been restricted to alternate days and can only use a small part of a very rough field containing a few hazards, despite the place having large acreage that could be managed more suitably now that they have decided to have horses on the farm. There is also no enclosure to put your horse in when mucking out and there are not enough tie up rings.

Presumably you have bought these points up with the YO? If they are not particularly horse savvy then these things (the hazards perhaps) may simply not have occurred to them. Asking for more tie rings, or asking if you could put one up for yourself is one way to go.

What sort of enclosure would you like to see?
Is there a suitable area available?
Would it take much work to do?

I am not getting at you but sometimes Livery Owners simply do not realise that what seems merely a matter of sticking a few posts in the ground and whacking a gate on it isn't that easy, or cheap.
When you factor in labour ( a good days work) cost of machinery, and the cost of materials if you haven't got them lying about, for example, I would pay in the region of $40 for gateposts (- if I didn't cut my own), $100+ for a gate, $7 for metal t posts, $8 for cedar fence posts (- again we cut our own), new wood for fencing is $2 a foot (- again we use our own trees), 200m of electric tape is $80 for the cheap stuff even a simple enclosure isn't cheap.

Last year I had a half acre paddock professionally fenced, it cost me $3000, it would make an ideal turnout pen but naughty me bad me decided that I would not make it available to my paying customers.

Farmers, even ex-farmers, are notoriously land proud, they don't like their fields cut up which means they will take longer to recover in spring and can be wasting growing time. What does the YO do with the rest of the land, grow crops, or hay?

I really think that the way to go is to discuss these points face to face with your YO.

 

[Mossi]

Presumably you have bought these points up with the YO? If they are not particularly horse savvy then these things (the hazards perhaps) may simply not have occurred to them. Asking for more tie rings, or asking if you could put one up for yourself is one way to go.

What sort of enclosure would you like to see?
Is there a suitable area available?
Would it take much work to do?

I am not getting at you but sometimes Livery Owners simply do not realise that what seems merely a matter of sticking a few posts in the ground and whacking a gate on it isn't that easy, or cheap.
When you factor in labour ( a good days work) cost of machinery, and the cost of materials if you haven't got them lying about, for example, I would pay in the region of $40 for gateposts (- if I didn't cut my own), $100+ for a gate, $7 for metal t posts, $8 for cedar fence posts (- again we cut our own), new wood for fencing is $2 a foot (- again we use our own trees), 200m of electric tape is $80 for the cheap stuff even a simple enclosure isn't cheap.

Last year I had a half acre paddock professionally fenced, it cost me $3000, it would make an ideal turnout pen but naughty me bad me decided that I would not make it available to my paying customers.

Farmers, even ex-farmers, are notoriously land proud, they don't like their fields cut up which means they will take longer to recover in spring and can be wasting growing time. What does the YO do with the rest of the land, grow crops, or hay?

I really think that the way to go is to discuss these points face to face with your YO.

To be honest I think if people are not prepared or able to make a place suitable and safe for horse keeping then they should not take horses on. The place was fine at first, but they have now taken on more horses despite having very little experience. I do not wish to wait to see if things improve because the place is beginning to get me down and it's just a bit too far away anyway. Ok, you may say that I should not have bought a horse, but when I did I rented my own land and it was fine, but the land was then sold along with the property it belonged to and we had to move off. I have tried to rent/buy more land but in this area it is always sold to farmers and noone else gets a chance.

 

[Enfys]

To be honest I think if people are not prepared or able to make a place suitable and safe for horse keeping then they should not take horses onor perhaps horse owners should not accept second best. The place was fine at first, but they have now taken on more horses despite having very little experience. I do not wish to wait to see if things improve which they won't if the YO does not know what to do to improve it without some friendly and subtle input because the place is beginning to get me down and it's just a bit too far away anyway.

Ok, you may say that I should not have bought a horse, I certainly would not dream of saying that to anyone but when I did I rented my own land and it was fine, but the land was then sold along with the property it belonged to and we had to move off. Unfortunate, these things happen I have tried to rent/buy more land but in this area it is always sold to farmers and noone else gets a chance.

You can't really blame the farmers for that though, they just happen to have the finances in place presumably.

Sounds to me as if you will be far happier when you can find somewhere more suitable, with regards to both facilities and travel distances. I hope you find somewhere that ticks your boxes soon.

 

[jrp204]

The rough land they have may be in a stewardship scheme where the LO is paid to leave it which would explain why it has not been turned over to horses.
I am sure that there are few liveries that allow too much turnout during the winter, You say there is limited turnout in a rough field, frankly any field you turnout in ATM would soon become 'rough'. Land management is, just that, management. Maintaining a crop (grass), soil structure and it's ability to maintain a crop in the future. I doubt many yards have somewhere you can turnout in while you clean out and building any sort of enclosure adequate for horses is going to cost, fencing materials are expensive as is labour and someone has to pay for it. Horses are not going to suffer irreparably for not having daily turnout and as owners we should make sure they are exercised and stimulated whilst stabled for longer periods (having one on 6 months box rest, we are well practised in this). If you have moved several times because yards have not met your requirements perhaps it is not the yards that have the problem?

 

[CrazyMare]

I can't quite see why you even WANT your horses to go out at the moment....

The ground here isn't just a bit muddy, its utterly saturated, liquid mud. There is no grass either, and what there is, you are at risk of destroying for next summer by turning out on it.

Add to that, the risk of lost shoes, slips and falls, and mud fever, it isn't really a very exciting option.

Mine are being walked further, ridden longer etc and all are perfectly content to stay warm and dry, rather than spending most of the day up to their fetlocks in mud, with the broodmare getting herself in a complete tizz about being wet!

 

[CBAnglo]

I think the comments where people have said, "their land, their rules" are fair enough to a point, however I think it would be wrong if the YO closed the fields for all of the liveries but continued to turn their horses out for as long as they liked. That is only going to cause resentment and seems unfair on the stabled horses. I think a better compromise in those circumstances would be to let everyone have a few hours of turnout so that the horses could stretch their legs, weather permitting.

I couldnt in good conscience keep liveried horses in whilst my own were allowed out. But I dont see anything wrong with keeping my horses separate from the liveries of having the best stables/fields etc. After all, there is hardly any money to be made from livery yards so you need to have some perks!

ETA: I dont have my own yard; when I do manage to find a place, I will only be keeping it for my horses so I wont have to worry about being fair etc!

 

[Enfys]

I think the comments where people have said, "their land, their rules" are fair enough to a point, however I think it would be wrong if the YO closed the fields for all of the liveries but continued to turn their horses out for as long as they liked. I think the thing here is that YO's must make it crystal clear from the outset exactly what they offer, in terms of available paddocks, turnout, facilities etc and what happens in the eventuality of bad weather. What they do with their own horses/paddocks is of no concern to anyone else (as you say) as long as Livery Owners know where they stand.

I couldnt in good conscience keep liveried horses in whilst my own were allowed out. No, neither could I, but then everything here lives out But I dont see anything wrong with keeping my horses separate from the liveries of having the best stables/fields etc. After all, there is hardly any money to be made from livery yards so you need to have some perks!

QUOTE]

 

[CBAnglo]

I think the comments where people have said, "their land, their rules" are fair enough to a point, however I think it would be wrong if the YO closed the fields for all of the liveries but continued to turn their horses out for as long as they liked. I think the thing here is that YO's must make it crystal clear from the outset exactly what they offer, in terms of available paddocks, turnout, facilities etc and what happens in the eventuality of bad weather. What they do with their own horses/paddocks is of no concern to anyone else (as you say) as long as Livery Owners know where they stand.

I couldnt in good conscience keep liveried horses in whilst my own were allowed out. No, neither could I, but then everything here lives out But I dont see anything wrong with keeping my horses separate from the liveries of having the best stables/fields etc. After all, there is hardly any money to be made from livery yards so you need to have some perks!

QUOTE]

The problem is when the YO tells you one thing, you move on, and then the story changes. If it is for weather etc then I think everyone can agree you need to keep the horses safe and it is up to the YO to say fields closed because horses will do themselves more harm then good out there/need to rest fields etc. I think the problem lies when the story changes because of other factors which liveries deem "unfair".

 

[horsesatemymoney]

The problem is when the YO tells you one thing, you move on, and then the story changes. If it is for weather etc then I think everyone can agree you need to keep the horses safe and it is up to the YO to say fields closed because horses will do themselves more harm then good out there/need to rest fields etc. I think the problem lies when the story changes because of other factors which liveries deem "unfair".

This ^ But also it's never going to get any better. Liveries, rightly so, expect to be treated as a customer, to be given basic things such as turnout and good stables...but, they don't want to pay a true market value for it. So, the yard owner sees liveries as getting subsidised livery, compared to their own overheads, whereas liveries see themselves as paying a lot for little....surprising there's not murders on livery yards really

 

[Chestnut mare]

Never had this problem. Yards I have been on have fields allocated which you manage through out the year to ensure grass ie strip grazing, feeding hay, bringing in etc. Yard owners have their own fields which they manage too.

Worse I had was at a yard where yard owners fields where at the bottom of a very muddy track and ours were at the top of the track, bit frustrating but was always plenty of grass.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Land is expensive £1000's per acre. Why shouldn't the YO choose the best. They bought it - yes they want you on their land but they want people who agree to their terms. If you don't - move on - if you can't move on you have no choice but to put up with the rules and regs of the yard your in until circumstances allow you to buy your own and abide by your own rules then.

I do not save the best for my horses as all my land is precious and I want all of it to have the best treatment thus my horses go in with the rest.


people who moan about YO or land etc should buy their own then they might realize how much land costs and its up keep.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I'm not objecting to my horse being stabled, but I think it is only fair to the horse to be allowed out to roam free somewhere for a least a few hours a day in the winter. Many of the livery yards in my area, however, do not allow this and haven't done for many years whatever the weather, so I was suggesting that they possibly might look into alternatives to keeping horses stabled for long periods in the winter, but as I said in my original post, the yard I am presently at allows their own two ponies very good winter turnout but the liveries (DIY, but the most expensive in the area) have been restricted to alternate days and can only use a small part of a very rough field containing a few hazards, despite the place having large acreage that could be managed more suitably now that they have decided to have horses on the farm - they still have a lot of extra rougher land that would be suitable for horses, that they don't use for cutting or even for summer grazing. There is also no enclosure to put your horse in when mucking out and there are not enough tie up rings. If you try and suggest/dare to ask for improvements you just get told, if you don't like it leave, which I have done numerous times (I've never been thrown off, I've just moved for better turnout that always turns pear-shaped eventually).

Ok lets address your issues
YO 's ponies have the best grazing ............ well she owns the land you must have known the rules when you move and knew her ponies are in better fields.

the are hazards in the field ..... well what are they? can you not remove them or fence them off?

not enough tie rings!!! can you not ask the YO if you can put your own tie ring up for your own horse?? they are only £ 4 I am sure your dad or someone can put it up for you..

Diy is the second lowest income for a YO over grass (which is one reason i wont do grass). you get what you pay for these days.

Maybe you should try further a field - write down everything that is important to you at a yard then go round and try find new premises.

Some of my livery horses are in while others go out at am that is because the owners don't get there till 9am that is there choice

 

[Pale Rider]

Lets face it yard owners are in it for the money, not because they are on a mission.

The only reason people go into the livery business is to help pay the bills. Very often the type of people who set up these yards don’t have a lot of knowledge and tend to rip people off, I’m thinking of the farms who diversify here, very popular at one time. Yards should have to provide some sort of turn out if they want any sort of approval, rather than just sending a cheque. I’ve even known yard owners emptying nets and mangers of hay when the horse owners have gone home. If you get a good yard, treasure it, there are few about.

 

[Mossi]

I can't quite see why you even WANT your horses to go out at the moment....

The ground here isn't just a bit muddy, its utterly saturated, liquid mud. There is no grass either, and what there is, you are at risk of destroying for next summer by turning out on it.

Add to that, the risk of lost shoes, slips and falls, and mud fever, it isn't really a very exciting option.

Mine are being walked further, ridden longer etc and all are perfectly content to stay warm and dry, rather than spending most of the day up to their fetlocks in mud, with the broodmare getting herself in a complete tizz about being wet!

The land is fine, its hilly, its only muddy near the gates and there is plenty of grass. My horse is barefoot so won't lose shoes and has never had mud fever, so he is a good candidate for winter turnout whatever the weather, he is a horse and would naturally walk around 20 miles a day and graze and forage for about 16 hours. He lived out on rough terrain for a long time and developed the best topline and fitness he has ever had, that is why I want him out as much as reasonably possible. I can understand your point of view though, as a totally mud ridden knee deep bog with nothing to forage on is a different matter, but the point I'm making is that there is enough suitable land here to sustain the whole herd summer and winter. Incidentally, some people restricted their horses turnout in the summer or put grazing muzzles on them because they thought there was too much grass, but I left mine out 24/7because he was doing so well and he always loses some weight in the winter anyway. It has just come as a shock that things have changed so much here now, because there really is enough land to graze all horses every day without even touching the best haylage fields. I would pay a higher price for the privilege given the chance too. There is also no clause on leaving the rougher bits animal free, as animals have grazed it in the past. It just seems such a shame to restrict it now, because all the horses did seem fitter and happier when they had lots of turnout.

 

[Mossi]

Ok lets address your issues
YO 's ponies have the best grazing ............ well she owns the land you must have known the rules when you move and knew her ponies are in better fields. When I moved on they had one pony who was in the same field as the liveries, they then moved the liveries into a challenging field and put their pony in a nice, safe easily accessible one.
the are hazards in the field ..... well what are they? can you not remove them or fence them off? Huge dry stone building remnants that are gradually falling down, water well level with ground surrounded by bog, flimsy electric fence with no current to partition off the field.
not enough tie rings!!! can you not ask the YO if you can put your own tie ring up for your own horse?? they are only £ 4 I am sure your dad or someone can put it up for you.. Very happy to provide my own tie ring.
Diy is the second lowest income for a YO over grass (which is one reason i wont do grass). you get what you pay for these days. I am willing to pay whatever it takes to get adequate turnout for my horse. Maybe you should try further a field - write down everything that is important to you at a yard then go round and try find new premises. I know, and I am.
Some of my livery horses are in while others go out at am that is because the owners don't get there till 9am that is there choice

It's good that you give them a choice.

A couple of us tried to discuss the issues, but we were spoken down to like naughty children in reply. It's a shame because they are basically nice yard owners, but don't seem to have the experience or willingness to research large scale horse keeping.

 

[muckypony]

Lets face it yard owners are in it for the money, not because they are on a mission.

The only reason people go into the livery business is to help pay the bills. Very often the type of people who set up these yards don’t have a lot of knowledge and tend to rip people off, I’m thinking of the farms who diversify here, very popular at one time. Yards should have to provide some sort of turn out if they want any sort of approval, rather than just sending a cheque. I’ve even known yard owners emptying nets and mangers of hay when the horse owners have gone home. If you get a good yard, treasure it, there are few about.

^^ THIS!

I know so many yard managers (not even owners of the land) that have several horses and wouldn't be able to have that many if they didn't run a livery yard. IMO if soemone wants to run a livery yard they should be in it for the horses - therefore they should not let other horses suffer so that theirs get the best of everything. No yard owner or manager should think it acceptable that they turn their horses out while no others can go out, its unfair. Yes, it is their yard, but if they had no liveries, they'd probably have no horses themselves...

 

[amandaco2]

I don't.
My one livery shared the same fields as my own horses and had two acres per horse.
I too was sick of over greedy livery yard owners ... Even had one time when I paid to have some horses elsewhere to let my fields rest, whilst paying the usual rent- and they put their own horse on my rested field

 

[Mossi]

I know a case where there was no winter turnout so someone found extra land to rent elsewhere so they could let their horses out daily in the winter, but the livery yard owners wouldn't allow them to graze the horses off the livery yard and so they were unable to use it!

 

[SO1]

I think it is normal for people to want the best for their horses and yard owners who are horse owners of course will want the best for their horses it is only natural.

With regard to your situation ponies often do less damage to the fields than horses especially if they are quiet ponies who don't move around a great deal - you said your horse would be walking 20 miles a day if turned out, if this is the case it could really damage the fields if they are wet.

Our YO only lets ponies and quiet small cobs live out as they do less damage to the fields as they don't tend to run around so much, she does make an exception for herself and her big horses are also turned out with the livery ponies and cobs during the winter. I don't have any problem with this as it is much easier for her to be flexible with her big horses and bring them in if need be if she thinks there is not enough grass to support everyone than it would be for a livery who was on grass livery to do so. It also means that she can manage the grazing dependent on the weather so if there is too much grass her big horses can help eat it down and if there is not enough they can come in.

The horses that live in at night all have turnout every day. YO has the fields nearest to her house for her horses when they live in at night which is mostly in the summer but no-one complains about that as it is understandable as it is her yard.

The problem is with supply and demand there are enough people wanting cheap livery for yards in some areas to be fairly full even if things are not perfect. In some ways it is economically more viable to have lots of people paying not very much than a few people paying a lot as if someone leaves then you are only losing £35 a week which is easier to deal with than if someone is paying a £100 a week and then leaves.

I suggest if you are willing to pay whatever it costs to get adequate turn out for your horse and there are no suitable yards in your area then you look to move your horse further away on to a full livery yard outside your area which does have decent turnout.