Yard Owners .. please help!

[Jumper123]

After having two horses in on schooling for an owner and them failing to pay livery bills, we are owed a substantial sum. They said they would collect horses tomorrow evening and pay money then, we replied that horses could leave when the money was in bank account.

The owner proceeded to try and take horses today when they thought no one was there, but our 16 year old girl was there, and she refused to let them take horses. They threatened her and left her visible shaken from the ordeal, but she refused to hand over horses.

As a yard owner where does this leave me standing?? Can I refuse to hand over horses/passports etc when they come back again?

 

[Fuzznugget]

Legally, I don't think so! What's in your contract about failure to pay? Starting to get fed up of non paying liveries, so can understand your frustration with this! Hopefully they'll pay up.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I had a contract when i was at a livery yard that stated my horse could not be removed from the yard until all monies owed were paid in full.

What a very brave daughter you have!

 

[christine48]

I think you may be within your rights to not let them leave until you have the money in the bank. Just holding onto the passport wouldn't do you much good as passports aren't proof of ownership. Seek legal advise, you could probably go through the small claims court. Have also heard of horses being sold to re claim debts.
Good luck.

 

[L&M]

Poor you - what a nightmare!

I think you need some legal help asap - do you have Country Side Alliance or BHS gold membership as both offer a legal helpline? Or a call to the CAB first thing in the morning?

My livery contract states that a horse cannot be removed if money oweing, but have never had to enforce that thank god. Whatever happens do not put yourself at risk of harm, and if they do remove the horses without payment, I imagine all you can do is follow up with a solicitors letter.

Also you could try to withhold the passports even if they do take the horses, but possibly sound like people that might not care anyhow....

Why are people such sods?

 

[JingleTingle]

Legally I do think so!! In some circumstances. Do you have a contract with the livery saying that their horses can be considered to have lien on them for unpaid livery fee debt owing? Hopefully the contract also says that the horses cannot be moved until all debt is paid?

 

[amandaco2]

I'd seek legal advice asap.
And get rent monthly in advance...that's what I do.

 

[Jumper123]

Quite naively didnt sign a contract ... it was a fantastic opportunity for 16 year old to ride top class horse , so verbal agreement to ride the horse and them to pay livery. Couldn't afford to buy horse of that level, so it was the best we could do.

Any more horses into the yard will definetly have to go through with a contract etc. Is it necessary for me to go through a solictor to draw it up? or can i draw it up myself and get both parties to sign?

 

[Starzaan]

I'm not sure where you stand unless you have a contract. I make all my liveries sign contracts agreeing to allow me to withold an item of tack or the horse itself for 30 days if no money is recieved after a letting notifying them of my intentions. They have 30 days to pay what they owe, and then I can sell the tack or horse to recoup my costs, handing over any money left to the owner.

It's such a tricky situation - well done to your brave daughter!

ETA - I drew up my contracts myself with the help of the BHS legal helpline.

 

[martlin]

As far as I know, you would have to establish lien through courts, really. I don't quite remember why and how, but it is easier with tack etc.
As one YO to another, honestly, just let them have the horses, bill them for livery and if they don't pay up, pursue it in court. Or chalk it up to experience

 

[Rowreach]

You can draw up your own contract (several examples can be found online). fwiw I would never hold on to a horse in lieu of fees - you end up having to feed it, exercise it, keep it healthy etc, and all at your own expense if at the end of the day you fail to get the money out of the client. I'd hang onto tack/trailer etc (write it into the contract) - basically anything that has a value and doesn't cost me money and time to keep.

Doesn't help you in the current situation, but I would be contacting the owner and telling them to get down the yard tomorrow as arranged with cash in hand, otherwise you are going to your solicitor.

Hugs to your daughter, can't have been nice.

 

[Wagtail]

You can draw up your own contract (several examples can be found online). fwiw I would never hold on to a horse in lieu of fees - you end up having to feed it, exercise it, keep it healthy etc, and all at your own expense if at the end of the day you fail to get the money out of the client. I'd hang onto tack/trailer etc (write it into the contract) - basically anything that has a value and doesn't cost me money and time to keep.

Doesn't help you in the current situation, but I would be contacting the owner and telling them to get down the yard tomorrow as arranged with cash in hand, otherwise you are going to your solicitor.

Hugs to your daughter, can't have been nice.

That's a good idea re the tack. I have never been in this position. However, I would probably padlock the gate to our courtyard and stables if in your position.

 

[aintgotnohay]

Legal claims against livery yard owners or irresponsible parties are on the increase.

Whether for DIY livery, part livery, full livery or working livery it is essential to have horse owners enter into a livery agreement before taking occupancy at your yard. This ensures both parties know their obligations. Standard clauses and issues must be considered before entering a livery agreement, for example:-

Parties – name, address and other contact details of the yard owner and horse owner.

Charges – livery fee and review dates for an increase; any additional costs e.g. farrier, vet, worming, time limit on when payment is due.

Insurance – liability of horse should remain with owner and the yard owner should exclude liability for injury to the horse and loss of tack / equipment.

Tack & other belongings – parties decide who is responsible for loss or damage to such items if not covered by insurance.

Horse Passport – technically the original should be held at the yard, however, the majority of horse owners are reluctant to do this in which case up-to-date copies should be provided to the yard owner with a right reserved to see the original.

Special care - details on any special care required for the horse are important i.e. requirement for a horse’s hay to be soaked.

Vices – any vices and behavioural problems of the horse should be fully disclosed. If none are apparent, a statement to this effect should be given.

Children / Dogs – you may want to exclude children and/or dogs from the yard. In any event you should make them the parent / owner’s responsibility.

Welfare decisions – the yard owner should have the right to make the decision to put the horse to sleep on veterinary advice only if the owner cannot be contacted.

Lien – a very important clause that should be incorporated into all livery agreements. Essentially, the yard owner reserves the right to retain the horse and its tack, rugs etc until payment of any outstanding livery fees are made. If payment is not made, the yard owner retains the power to sell the horse and belongings to cover the debt. Any remaining proceeds of sale should then be held by the yard owner in case dispute occurs in the future.

Duties owed by the livery yard owner – services must be provided with reasonable care and skill e.g. quality of feed, school surface, supervision of horse; reasonable care must be taken of your horse e.g. adequate feed and water, veterinary needs met, no poisonous plants in the fields; the premises must be of a safe standard and maintained as such e.g. sufficient drainage and ventilation, non-slip floors; employees must be suitably experienced and trained.

Duties owed by the horse owner – horse’s welfare must be of a good standard i.e. provision of suitable rugs and feed supplements; yard rules must be abided; livery fees to be paid on time!

 

[Kat]

You probably could exercise a lien even without a contract as the services relate to the subject of the lien. But do get advice. Also consider whether you want to be stuck with the horse.......

Get some advice, your insurers should be able to put you on to lawyers.

 

[PandorasJar]

We were advised by police to lock horses and property on site.
In our case they coughed straight up.

There is someone on here who took ownership of a horse I believe in these circumstances but believe it took circa a year

 

[Jumper123]

Thank you everyone for replies.
They told daughter she was showing her "true colours" and highly letting herself down among some other insults. They told her to look at from their point of view. She told them to look at it from hers and said she handled herself in the most professinal manner she could in the situation and stood up to what I would describe as a "bully" - so for that I am proud.

The owner told me they would have cheque tomorrow. I said I didn't want any horse leaving until all paid. They told me they had contacted solicitor and would get police involved if all horses and tack were not handed over immediately. I told them a cheque is just a piece of paper, I wanted cash in bank. They then went on to say I was highly insulting and questioning their honesty.

Can I legally be in the right if I keep all tack etc?

 

[Enfys]

I have it in my contract that I can, and will, use the Innkeepers Act, which gives me the right after two weeks of non-payment, to put an advert in the paper stating my intentions, and then auction the horses to recoup my losses, although to be honest, as most of mine are a bunch of crocks they are worth less than meat money.

I don't know if I could be bothered to be honest though, I certainly wouldn't want to keep the horses that would just run up costs further. I would probably just keep items of tack etc.

Firstly though, I happen to know some quite persuasive people who would happily pay a call to the non-payers.

My Uncle did it once to some customers who didn't pay for an order of rosettes for a Hunt show (talking hundreds of rosettes here) he visited and announced that he had good news and bad.

The Bad News was that they owed his niece money, the Good News was that he and his friend there (nods towards car) would like to take him to the nearest ATM to withdraw cash, and they'd take him home afterwards As my Uncle was Somerset Mafia and knew some very big people he said he didn't have a problem.

I am impressed with your daughter, good for her, I don't know that I would have been that brave at her age.

 

[Jumper123]

We were advised by police to lock horses and property on site.
In our case they coughed straight up.

There is someone on here who took ownership of a horse I believe in these circumstances but believe it took circa a year

Can I legally do that??? Or because they own the horse can they go as far as calling it stealing????

The amount owed is worth about 10% of good horse... (two horses for a few months schooling so you can think of a number there ) so I'm not sure ownership claim would be particularly valid!

 

[Jumper123]

What a very brave daughter you have!

Just shows you what children can do when they feel they need to stick up for themselves!!!

 

[Jumper123]

As my Uncle was Somerset Mafia and knew some very big people he said he didn't have a problem.

I am impressed with your daughter, good for her, I don't know that I would have been that brave at her age.

I need someone like that!!!

Just shows you the nerve to compete at a relatively high level can be transferred over to other situations!

 

[Honey08]

Thank you everyone for replies.
They told daughter she was showing her "true colours" and highly letting herself down among some other insults. They told her to look at from their point of view. She told them to look at it from hers and said she handled herself in the most professinal manner she could in the situation and stood up to what I would describe as a "bully" - so for that I am proud.

The owner told me they would have cheque tomorrow. I said I didn't want any horse leaving until all paid. They told me they had contacted solicitor and would get police involved if all horses and tack were not handed over immediately. I told them a cheque is just a piece of paper, I wanted cash in bank. They then went on to say I was highly insulting and questioning their honesty.

Can I legally be in the right if I keep all tack etc?

Horrible selfish people.

Tell them you look forward to speaking to their solicitor. Perhaps give them the horse but keep the tack. Tell them plainly they can take the tack when the cheque clears or you are handed the cash. It may not be legal, but it will take them a while to get solicitor/court to make you give it back. At the very least it will be a nuisance to them. I would also tell them they are horrible people bullying a 16year old girl and that they have left her quite upset.

 

[Jumper123]

It was agreed they would come tomorrow night!!

They thought no one was at the yard today, so went when they thought they could just get horses with no one there, not realising daughter was there!!!

Is there anyway I can use this as trespassing etc??
They told daughter they would phone the police if she didn't hand over horses.... thankfully she is not that naive and promptly informed them that "the police are out fighting crime, not helping grown men who phone because they aren't happy with what a 16 year old girl said to them."

^^maybe not the most professinal in that moment, but I think it showed she wasn't for being messed with.

 

[PandorasJar]

I dont know but that was the response that the police gave. Same response by another county to block in trespassers (in work vehicles) too.

I'd get legal advice but if they turn up again call police at the time.

Agree re: cheque. They aren't guaranteed, I'd want money cleared in the bank.

 

[PandorasJar]

Are you a member of bhs? Give them a call if so.
Did you receive money monthly by dd or standing order? That might be admissible as a contract of sorts or to prove that there was a financial arrangement.

 

[Jumper123]

Are you a member of bhs? Give them a call if so.
Did you receive money monthly by dd or standing order? That might be admissible as a contract of sorts or to prove that there was a financial arrangement.

gave me one large lump sum to cover about 2 months worth before.... the more I read about my own handling of the situation through out I did act naively... but with the opportunity it gave daughter, that I knew I could not afford to provide, I stuck with it.

 

[Fuzznugget]

Bit of an article here about pursuing unpaid livery fees, might be worth a read?

 

[Kat]

Send me a PM if you want some proper advice, but fwiw it isn't theft if you refuse to let them remove the horse you are exercising a lien. You could also allow them to take the horses but keep tack/rugs/equipment instead. The police will be very reluctant to get involved.

 

[PandorasJar]

Personally then I'd let them go tomorrow. And keep tack to the value and deny all knowledge of it... But of course I wouldn't recommend you do that... Whistles

 

[One More]

Your daughter sounds wonderful, I wish i'd had the guts to do that at 16! No advice on the situation, but hope you get it all sorted soon

 

[Kat]

Btw your daughter is an absolute star! Give her a big hug!