Yard Owners .. please help!

[ponypilotmum]

AFAIK you can only exercise these rights to keep a horse for a livery debt IF there is a contract in place.

Because otherwise I could offer to graze my friend's horse for free, then keep it. She would have no proof I said I'd graze it for free.... and I could just say she owes me thousands.

If I were you I'd hand the horse over, and just keep the tack. Tell them they can have it back when the cheque clears.

 

[Ginge Crosby]

use it as a learning experience - getting money out of them via the courts will probably cost you just as much or more than the amount owed.

I will never understand why people don't use some form of written contract, and deposits.
You could be the best of friends for 20 yrs, and still have fallouts.

Here, if someone potentially wants to take up a livery space, they must read and sign a contract which stipulates that in the event of a bill being unpaid for more than 3 months the yard has the right to sell the horse within 7 days of notifying the owner to recoup the fees. (in reality, this is used very much at the YO's discretion - we have one current livery who owes a bit of money, but as she has 2 horses here and she pays as and when, YO always gets the money eventually so they'd rather let her stay here than turf her off). They also have to pay one month's livery upfront, AND a bond of one month's livery which will be with-held should any bill remain unpaid if they up sticks and ****** off.

'aintgotnohay's post pretty much sums up our contract. Our livery's have to set up a DD after the first month for the livery fee only (roughage, bedding, wormers & extra services are billed separately at the end of the month) so that at least they can't fall behind on their livery bill.

I worked at a different livery yard, years ago, where a mother/daughter couple had 3 horses there and hadnt paid livery or hay bills for months. Situation got VERY nasty, and when they turned up to take their horses (god knows where as they'd been booted off every yard in a 20 mile radius) we let them get on with it, as in the long run it wasnt worth the confrontation.

bless your daughter, she IS very brave and for her to have prevented them leaving with the horses she must have stood her ground pretty darn well. chalk it up to experience. and next time, have a signed contract, month's livery and a bond before the horse steps foot on your property. hindsight is a wonderful thing!

 

[Jumper123]

use it as a learning experience - getting money out of them via the courts will probably cost you just as much or more than the amount owed.

I will never understand why people don't use some form of written contract, and deposits.
You could be the best of friends for 20 yrs, and still have fallouts.

bless your daughter, she IS very brave and for her to have prevented them leaving with the horses she must have stood her ground pretty darn well. chalk it up to experience. and next time, have a signed contract, month's livery and a bond before the horse steps foot on your property. hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Yes, it was very naive on my behalf, but I basically saw the opportunities it gave my daughter to compete at such a level, and hoped for the best to be honest. It was a naive way to act, but when someone owns horses of high value, you do expect them to have money to hand over to you to pay livery.

I am most definitely never making the same mistake again though, new owners will have a "hopefully" watertight contract signed from now on!!

And yes, wonderfully brave daughter, not entirely sure where it came from, but I guess she figured if the money is paid, the more I would have to then spend on a new horse for her... so decided to stand her ground!!!

 

[Ginge Crosby]

We were advised by police to lock horses and property on site.

YO was told by solicitors (with regard to the mother/daughter nightmare) that doing this was illegal - we had to allow them access to the yard to see to their horses, as they were their property. By padlocking the entrance gate and not allowing them to provide care for their horses, it was considered us 'stealing' the horses. So when we locked the hay and straw supply away from them (that they were meant to be paying for, and hadn't for months), they took it upon themselves to fill one of the empty stables with their own hay and straw and padlock it. We were told again by solicitors that if we were to remove their padlock (with boltcutters or similar) it would be seen as criminal damage, and they could then sue the YO for the damage. All this, bearing in mind, that they had not payed a day's livery/rent in >3 months. They were effectively keeping their 3 horses there for free, only paying their own suppliers for hay and bedding.
YO spent more than what they owed on solicitors, more to prove a point than anything, ended up out of pocket, never saw a penny off them despite pursuing them for the money.

 

[Ginge Crosby]

Yes, it was very naive on my behalf, but I basically saw the opportunities it gave my daughter to compete at such a level, and hoped for the best to be honest. It was a naive way to act, but when someone owns horses of high value, you do expect them to have money to hand over to you to pay livery.

We can only hope. I, for one, have been burnt too many times, in many aspects than just the horsey one, to hang on to that hope any more. And illusion is a fantabulous thing... just because they have a horse that looks the part, the truth is that in order to have said horse, they are probably fairly penniless behind the scenes!

[/QUOTE]I am most definitely never making the same mistake again though, new owners will have a "hopefully" watertight contract signed from now on!! [/QUOTE]

That's great, and i really hope you stand by it. Regardless of who it is, it could be your best friend, or the Queen, a written contract will always have more weight than a verbal contract.

[/QUOTE]And yes, wonderfully brave daughter, not entirely sure where it came from, but I guess she figured if the money is paid, the more I would have to then spend on a new horse for her... so decided to stand her ground!!![/QUOTE]

Good girl, knows her priorities!! haha
She showed a big loyalty to you, whether she knew you were right or wrong. She's an asset to you and your business, and i'd do whatever it takes (new horse and all) to keep her on board!

ETA - lord knows how to work the multi-quote... thought i had it sussed! i am an antitechysaurus if ever there was one!! (anyone willing to give me lessons??!)

 

[Jumper123]

We can only hope. I, for one, have been burnt too many times, in many aspects than just the horsey one, to hang on to that hope any more. And illusion is a fantabulous thing... just because they have a horse that looks the part, the truth is that in order to have said horse, they are probably fairly penniless behind the scenes!

I am most definitely never making the same mistake again though, new owners will have a "hopefully" watertight contract signed from now on!! [/QUOTE]

That's great, and i really hope you stand by it. Regardless of who it is, it could be your best friend, or the Queen, a written contract will always have more weight than a verbal contract.

[/QUOTE]And yes, wonderfully brave daughter, not entirely sure where it came from, but I guess she figured if the money is paid, the more I would have to then spend on a new horse for her... so decided to stand her ground!!![/QUOTE]

Good girl, knows her priorities!! haha
She showed a big loyalty to you, whether she knew you were right or wrong. She's an asset to you and your business, and i'd do whatever it takes (new horse and all) to keep her on board!

ETA - lord knows how to work the multi-quote... thought i had it sussed! i am an antitechysaurus if ever there was one!! (anyone willing to give me lessons??!)[/QUOTE]

Yes, a lesson learned, although If I have my way about it, I would hope it will not be an overly expensive lesson!! I aim to be honest in all situations and never get anything I can't afford etc ... ie be DECENT HUMAN BEING!! sometimes i guess I forget the rest of the world is not the same.

Thank fully a leading event rider spotted her about 5 years ago, and has given her as many opportunites as they could, lessons and rides on horses... that again I could not have afforded for her!! She works very hard and she has quadruple the loyalty to them, she won't have bad word said against them ! Hopefully they recognise that loyalty that she has to them and she fufills her potential with them!!

Although this thread is not about her really, so a tad off topic

 

[crabbymare]

ETA - lord knows how to work the multi-quote... thought i had it sussed! i am an antitechysaurus if ever there was one!! (anyone willing to give me lessons??!)

easy! just press the button with " on it thats to the right of the quote button for each post you want to quote and then press the reply button and type your answer in the gaps. otherwise use

blah blah [ /quote] without the gap in the last one what you have is [/quo te] at the beginning as the / means end if that makes sense?

 

[Jumper123]

easy! just press the button with " on it thats to the right of the quote button for each post you want to quote and then press the reply button and type your answer in the gaps. otherwise use

blah blah [ /quote] without the gap in the last one what you have is [/quo te] at the beginning as the / means end if that makes sense?

thank you.. learning experience!

 

[PandorasJar]

Have to say regardless of legality. I'd do same again.
Phone police and lock in if they said. If it came down to court I'd been advised to do so by the police.

 

[Queenbee]

Thank you everyone for replies.
They told daughter she was showing her "true colours" and highly letting herself down among some other insults. They told her to look at from their point of view. She told them to look at it from hers and said she handled herself in the most professinal manner she could in the situation and stood up to what I would describe as a "bully" - so for that I am proud.

The owner told me they would have cheque tomorrow. I said I didn't want any horse leaving until all paid. They told me they had contacted solicitor and would get police involved if all horses and tack were not handed over immediately. I told them a cheque is just a piece of paper, I wanted cash in bank. They then went on to say I was highly insulting and questioning their honesty.

Can I legally be in the right if I keep all tack etc?

I'd be tremendously proud of a daughter who handled herself like that... And questioning their honesty... Hmmm yes let me think... Err damn right. I'd tell them that the horse can stay for the week gratis until the cheque clears... From the sound of them we all know it would probably bounce if only because they are miffed at you I'd keep the horses on site, until it clears...

 

[corbleu]

Firstly, really big hugs to your daughter - it sounds like she should be very proud of her professionalism and you should be really proud of raising her. Secondly, don't beat yourself up about not having a contract. Yes, we all know that these cases are on the increase but there are plenty of us about that are still daft enough to trust people (I say this with the greatest respect and as one of the people who is daft enough to do just that!). When I first started with horses and certainly as an owner it was enough that someone seemed honest, trustworthy and that you got on. I'm now on both ends of the stick as I livery my horses at a local farm, the farmer doesn't have any contract in place (took him long enough to take my home phone number, was more than happy with just a mobile and certainly doesn't give a monkeys about full postal address!!) livery is paid monthly in advance, hay and straw we keep track of ourselves and pay at the end of the month for what we've used, everything based on trust. Also have two fab young lads helping out, they know what's expected of them and any communication is done by text, chat over a cuppa or a phone call. Not sure any of us would have much comeback if we had a problem! In your case I would make sure you have copies and totals of all the invoices and then get in touch with your insurers or the BHS legal helpline. I would also hasten to add that if these pleasant individuals return and behave in a threatening manner as yard owner they are on your property and you have every right to request they leave. If they don't not only are they behaving in a threatening manner, they are also trespassing and you have every right to not only request the police remove them (minus the horses until the money is paid in full) but also to take legal action against them. On a side note I would also be taking photo's and documenting the condition of the horses, preferably alongside an independent witness, because the last thing you want is them paying in full then taking the horses away and trying to claim you have caused damage, injury or been negligent towards their care in any way and therefore trying to bring a claim against you.

 

[Jumper123]

Thank you for advice everyone

 

[khadijah]

Im so sad to hear that this happened how appalling those people are
I was really suprised to hear so many people on here say that you had a right to keep te horse and tack
Even with a contract
You never ever have a right to keep someones property

I think those dishonest thieves knew this full well

Dont worry hun theyl get what they deserve sooner or later thats for sure

 

[PandorasJar]

Not true. We were advised by police to do so and I know others on here who now legally own the horses in the same situation. It's not an easy process but it can be done legally.

 

[Honey08]

I think the dishonest theif title could apply more to the people that steal livery and services and don't expect to pay their bill..

 

[Coblover63]

I'd like to know what happened in the end? Any update J123?

 

[Starzaan]

Im so sad to hear that this happened how appalling those people are
I was really suprised to hear so many people on here say that you had a right to keep te horse and tack
Even with a contract
You never ever have a right to keep someones property

I think those dishonest thieves knew this full well

Dont worry hun theyl get what they deserve sooner or later thats for sure

I sought legal advice when drawing up my livery contracts, and both the solicitor I spoke to and the BHS legal helpline advise putting a clause into contracts stating that tack, or indeed the horse itself can be witheld and even sold in lieu of payment.

 

[khadijah]

Oh thank God for that ! Otherwise so many people will be doing it especially
Now
With the economic crisis !
Great news !

 

[Starzaan]

Oh thank God for that ! Otherwise so many people will be doing it especially
Now
With the economic crisis !
Great news !

It is, as I am suffering just as much as anyone else with the recession. It gives me a safety net to know that if I have a livery who refuses to pay for services I've provided (which includes not only my time but also my money to pay for feed, bedding, etc) then I can pay my own bills and not be left out of pocket.

I am of course sympathetic to people who are struggling, and am flexible wherever possible, but I'm not willing to lose my yard or my horses because someone refuses to pay their bill.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

YO was told by solicitors (with regard to the mother/daughter nightmare) that doing this was illegal - we had to allow them access to the yard to see to their horses, as they were their property. By padlocking the entrance gate and not allowing them to provide care for their horses, it was considered us 'stealing' the horses. So when we locked the hay and straw supply away from them (that they were meant to be paying for, and hadn't for months), they took it upon themselves to fill one of the empty stables with their own hay and straw and padlock it. We were told again by solicitors that if we were to remove their padlock (with boltcutters or similar) it would be seen as criminal damage, and they could then sue the YO for the damage. All this, bearing in mind, that they had not payed a day's livery/rent in >3 months. They were effectively keeping their 3 horses there for free, only paying their own suppliers for hay and bedding.
YO spent more than what they owed on solicitors, more to prove a point than anything, ended up out of pocket, never saw a penny off them despite pursuing them for the money.

The hay and straw in padlocked stable could have been resolved provided when the padlock is cut off it is replaced with an identical one - since then they have no loss - (which you can give to them once their fodder is out of the stable and the stable locked with your own, new padlock.

I would let them take the horse because without a contract it is a grey area - I would give them a time and date to take it and advise it will be tied to the gate from that time (and do it!). I would keep the tack to the value of the monies owing and send them a statement for the balance if there is still any shortfall.

 

[ribbons]

Very very dodgy area.
I know of two seperate Yard owners who have had liveries that happily walked away owing a lot of money. Leaving YO with outstanding fees and now a mediocre horse of little value that continued to cost money.
One of them actually spent the previous week quietly removing all equipment of any value bit by bit without anyone noticing until the only thing remaining at the yard was the horse, it's headcollar, feed and water buckets and haynet. Off they went one evening, cheerily calling "bye, see you tomorrow" never to be seen or heard of again. Contract no use there.

In these hard times, if I were a YO and someone owed money (not likely to happen to me,now,been burned in the past and am now very firm with financial matters) I'd boot them and their horse out and cut my losses, the last thing I'd want is the money consuming property left with me adding to the debt.

 

[ribbons]

Sorry posted before finished.

If possible, locking all their tack and equipment away, giving a written guarantee it would all be returned upon settlement of outstanding livery fees by a certain date.