Yard Owners - What would you do?

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sarahwilkes

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I have a family who have 6 horses on DIY. they are very good clients and i have very little trouble with them.

One of their horses is an Arab Colt, who they are wanting to licence to Stud.

Would you allow other peoples mares on your yard?

Would you charge a stud fee for use of facilities?

If so how much?

What would be your views in general on this matter?

I have never been in this position before and all of your ideas and advice is very much appreciated.
 
Are they experienced stallion handlers that know exactly what they are doing? IMO you wouldn't have a standing stallion on DIY at a general yard, its not safe enough.
They would have to send him to a stud to do it for them, if they were on my yard.
 
I would absolutely not allow this. For a start, as a livery myself I would not be especially happy with other horses coming in and out that may be carrying infectious illnesses.
From a safety aspect I am not sure how the insurance would work.
All the other horses coming in could create unsettlement for other horses.
If they want to run a stud business then they should do it on their own premises, or at a stud, or not at all.
 
They are taking the P. The place for a stallion is at a stud. Not on a DIY yard!

They are proposing to run a business from your place. This will mean you loose control of who sets foot on your place, a major security issue.

You will also put off potential or existing livery clients who have mares.

You will have real desiese control issues. This will put off many livery clients.

You will need separate facilities and good fencing for the stallion. From a financial point of view it just isn't worth it.

Do they NEED a stallion or is it justa case of £££££££££!
 
I have a stud and stand a stallion and I would say no WAY is a d.i.y. or even full livery yard suitable for standing a stallion at stud UNLESS the business can be 'compartmentalised'. A friend of mine HAS a stud and a livery yard but they are two seperate yards; close to each other, but with seperate entrances off the main entrance and each is self-contained. It needs at least two people for teasing/covering mares - and at LEAST one of them HAS to know what they are doing. It also requires safe yards for the purpose, a trying bar, and access to these yards needs to be away from the comings and goings of livery horses and their owners.
 
thanks for your comments.

This is the thing - we dont have proper stud facilities - their poor colt only goes out a couple of times a week if he is lucky which in my opinion is no life for a horse.

they havent got him licenced yet but I wanted to do a little research before it happened. (if it ever does - knowing what they are like)

from a livery point of view though they are good customers having 6 stables - easy money less vehicles etc.
 
I can understand your dilemma ,if you say no you possibly lose 6 liveries..
I would however only agree if they know what they're doing, and you can give their stallion a separate safe paddock of his own plus facilities away from the liveries for covering/trying incoming mares. I think the person's worry about infectious diseases is silly, mares must be swabbed before they arrive and are less likely to bring a bug than the average competition horse who goes to shows.
I would be rather worried about your insurance cover, the NFU grill us within an inch of our lives re who uses the arena/where the stallion is kept etc and wanted great detail about everything, they even decided if the local Pony Club wanted to use the arena for rallies they would charge us and extra £50 a year!
So your Public Liability insurance needs to be comprehensive if you say yes.
 
Eeeek!

Well, clearly, as I know you in real life and your yard set up, including knowing a bit about the people in question and other liveries, then I feel I can offer a gut reaction/opinion as a friend.

You have internal stabling in a large barn. I'm not sure that's considered a good place to keep a stallion, mixed in with other livery horses. I don't think you have stabling separate to that block do you? Surely that type of stabling will constantly tease their stallion when there are mares about? Not like you can shut a top door to keep him quiet, if he gets a bit excitable is it? Liveries having to pass his stable, might feel threatened or get nipped. I know that can happen with any horse, but I would expect a covering stallion to be a little more "aggressive" if he's kept in a yard with mixed sexed horses in close proximity. I could be wrong though.

What about the children on the yard? Not just your own, but the other liveries? Could be quite nasty if you have your daughter or a livery's daughter leading their pony about and a stallion makes a beeline for them.

I just don't see how they think they can run a stud from your yard. You could have mares there for weeks on end until they took and at the moment you don't have any spare stabling do you? If you are "full", will you have the land to support the mares that would be staying with you whilst being covered? You don't have a yard for covering either. Would he expect the mares to just run with the stallion in fields, hoping that nature would run it's course?

I wouldn't mind betting that they wouldn't expect their livery to increase weekly for him either. They'd expect to just pay their normal DIY costs and yet you would have the added insurance, fencing etc to cover.

Why on Earth they would think they can cover mares out of a DIY yard, I've no idea. Seriously, I can only see it ending in tears or litigation!

Sorry, I know you get on well with them and are accommodating to your liveries, where possible, but it's bang out of order of them if you want my honest opinion. If he passes his grading, then they should move him to a stud and let the staff there see to him.

On another note, I know I keep my horses at home, but I certainly wouldn't move Patches to your yard if you were to stand a stallion at stud there. Furthermore, if I was already there, I'd move.

Sorry, but it would worry me. Not just that he'd cover Patches or Tweenie, but by being around he could affect their temperaments. You know how tarty some mares can be.

Edited to add:
Is he thinking of covering outside mares, or just his own? If it's the latter, then you have to consider the facilities for mares/foals as well, not just the stallion. He could be wanting to take up alot of your land for his own enterprise and I've a feeling your acreage would be extremely tested. Is it 14 acres you have?
 
No way would I allow that in your situation. There are so many risks as outlined in many people's posts above. Visiting mares could bring infection to the yard. What about insurance. You would need yours checking as well as theirs.

Most yards don't allow stallions full stop. Not saying that is right or wrong, but these people seem to be really trying it on. They should send him somewhere with the facilities and experience to breed with him, and keep their other five with you... It isn't fair to compromise you, the other horses and ponies at your yard and your other clients for this one person deciding to use your premises as a stud.

The other compromise would be that they only provide semen for AI and don't have mares at your yard for covering?
 
Thanks for all your comments and advice.

Knowing what the people are like i cant see them working him frequently as most stud owners do. they havent shown him enough to get him noticed. people wont want to use an unknown stallion especially as there are so many out there!

he has been stabled with us since he was weaned with no problems. we do have american barn style stabling. he is kept it the bottom stable, with their other 5 horses in the stables next to him. so any teasing or trouble will upset their horses.

they never turn him out if there are other horses in the fields, which is sensible but the poor boy doesnt get much daylight. plus they never take him out of his stable if there are children on site.

we do have other buildings/barns where we could move him to if it became necessary.

we have a high amount of liability insurance etc, as we also have a kennels on site along with other businesses that rent units from us. obviously i will check with the nfu if it needs to be altered, and of course any extra premium would have to be covered by my livery to accomodadte them.

The one thing i wanted to know that hasn't really been discussed yet - is that if a mare was to come on site for covering (just for the act not 4 weeks) how much do i charge my livery for use of my facilities?
 
You say he has been stabled with you since weaned - big difference to a stallion that has actually been used for covering.....

I used to be at a livery yard where the YO had a stallion... then again she did have the facilities for him and double fenced paddock etc, but he at that time, had never covered a mare, and would quite happily hack out with them without showing any stallion tendencies. Only after he had covered did his temperament change and you couldn't walk past his box with ANY horses....

It made life very miserable for the liveries.....

I think everyone is right.... from a safety point of view this is just not viable.... I would be insisting that the horse is either gelded or moved before you have bigger problems... I dont know how many other liveries are on your yard, yes you may lose six horses and one owner, but how many others would you lose if something happened? Then you would be left with the stallion owner and their 6 horses and gossip flying around your county over what happened! Worth thinking about???
 
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The one thing i wanted to know that hasn't really been discussed yet - is that if a mare was to come on site for covering (just for the act not 4 weeks) how much do i charge my livery for use of my facilities?

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That's an interesting question.

As to how much you'd charge him, I've no idea. Those with stallions at stud would be able to help. Who would do the covering? Would he do it in-hand or out in the fields naturally? Would you be physically helping him

How old is his colt currently?
 
Well as they don't seem to be coping with him now and only letting him have limited turnout there is no way you could let them run him as a stud stallion, poor boy
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I experienced a similar situation at a DIY yard where I kept my TB mare. The owners bought themselves a dressage stallion....from a very well known person....stallion arrived with impeccable manners and condition, working well under saddle.
Unfortunately the DIY owners didn't know anything much about stallions etc...and things started to go haywire.
Firstly, they didn't have a separate covering yard so had intended to use the school (and his normal bridle) where he was also meant to do ridden work....not successful.
Secondly, they ran into handling problems...the male owner asked me to hold the stallion while he washed it off as his wife had been bitten black and blue and was now scared of it.
I said, yes, I'll hold him, but I'll discipline him if he bites me....'You can't do that...he's really valuable!'
And he became a problem to ride in the school, so the owners banned liveries from any horse movement whilst he was being worked....then took him to a show....where there was quite a bit of horse movement and a lot of stallion movement too
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And many of the liveries left because they were fed up of not being able to catch their horse/ride etc if the stallion was out.
I'd put up high fencing and give them a list of strict rules whilst this Arab boy is an untried colt...but as soon as it starts covering, insist that they send it to professionals.
S
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My YO runs his own small stud and has DIY and full liveries. It works quite well and there has never been a problem. The stallion has his own stallion pen for turnout and is stabled away from the rest of the yard. We do have the occassional visiting mare but at the moment it tents to be the YO's mares only that are covered.
The stallion is extremely well behaved and is just being broken - as yet he has'nt put a foot wrong.
I think it can be done provided the set up is right and everyone involved is sensible and doesnt take risks.
 
you can mix liveries and stallions in an american barn system safely but you need to have the horses handled by professional/know what they are doing people and also no or very few kids around and full livery only.

been on two competition yards with my own stallion - he went away to do his AI as did owners stallion and then came back.

No natural cover. No visiting mares to the yard. everything to do with breeding happened at the stallion station/AI center.

my boy and the other stallion both rode out and mixed with the mares under saddle and shared a high fenced proper stallion turnout paddock when at home. - but they NEVER covered at home.

no way would this be safe on a DIY yard with amateurs doing the handling.
 
I was on a diy yard some years ago. The YO allowed a pony stallion on the yard and put it in a field with electric fencing between the stallion and my mare!!!
The owners of the stallion said he was very well behaved and would be no problem. They didn't seem to take on board that my mare would have tempted him beyond any thought of being good and sensible!!!!
Needless to say I left, same day as he arrived.
 
We had another livery with 2 stallions on a part-livery yard for 2 years.

The stallions were in an american barn system stabled next to geldings, but in the same block as the mares.

They had no separate turnout, so had to be ridden/lunged for exercise.

He covered the mares in-hand, using the school, sometimes whilst liveries (ie me!) were trying to school their mares.
The mares that came up for covering were turned out 24/7 with our mares. They were charged normal livery rate whilst they were on the yard.

I'm not sure if YO charged anything for the horses which were boxed over, covered, and boxed back again. They might have charged for the hire of the school!

I never had any problems with the stallions being on, but it was far from an ideal set up for the stallions, and caused a few incidents e.g. one got free whilst led, and tried to mount an elderly mare who was getting schooled at the time.
It also meant our shower room was out of action all summer, unless you wanted to run the stallion gauntlet as it was in the same stable block
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You seem to be inclined to try it but I have to add my voice to the cautionary chorus.

There is a HUGE difference in the couple of situations mentioned above where the yard also functions as a stud - everyone knows that going in, the owner of the yard has complete control and can set the rules and he/she sees fit, and the facilities are set up for it. Also, having a competition stud that stands/collects elsewhere is not comparable.

Do you have experience with breeding stallions? It can go, very, very wrong if people don't know what they're up to and it sounds like these owners are already doing a few questionable things with this young horse. Do they know exactly what's involved? Stallions, especially those doing live cover in hand, have to be taught to do their jobs safely and properly. And some stallions, even with everyone's best intentions, change a great deal when they start to breed, especially if the handlers do not have a VERY good handle on things before hand.

I've ridden quite a few young stallions for experienced breeders and it takes a lot of attention to do it right. YOU are assuming most of the risk in this situation and asking your other liveries to assume a great deal as well, even though they have no say in the matter. It's all very well to "see how it goes" but be aware you by the time it goes wrong you might either have a real problem or be backed into a corner you can't easily escape from.

As to having the mares there "for the act" . . . how, exactly is that going to work? How are the mares going to tease? Are the sorts of clients they are likely going to attract be the sorts to have round the clock vet supervision to determine heat cycles? Even that's not a guarantee? Many mares go out when they're shipped or won't accept a stallion in a strange place.

You need to have a conversation with these people. A very serious one. You can explain to them it's in everyone's best interests - including their presumably nice young horse's - to do this properly, not on a whim. If they are serious and want the horse to do well then they should see the sense of this and not be offended. If they don't . . . well, there's your answer right there.

Of course we are all talking as if he's going to get mares. Standing a stallion is a competitive business and a young, unproven, ungraded horse doesn't have much to offer for most responsible mare owners. That said, even one mare (especially of the "hey, I've got a stallion, you've got a mare . . !" variety) could be enough to cause trouble for you.
 
It sounds as though these people are total amateurs who don't know thing one about keeping a colt, let alone standing a stallion at stud. As an unknown colt he is highly unlikely to get any mares (or at least not any decent ones) - is he even stallion quality? Far too many people keep Arabs entire that really are not stallion quality. Arabs don't have 'gradings' as such, so show results are the only guide - unless this colt has won at some high-class, major shows, he is highly unlikely to be a success as a stallion.

The stud/training-yard where my stallion stands does also take some liveries. But it is a stud, and is called a stud, so everyone knows where they are and what to expect. And anyway they only do full livery, not DIY, so everything is properly controlled and managed, with proper stud facilities and completely separate turnout for the stallions, broodmares and competition horses.

A bunch of amateurs standing an unknown colt at a DIY yard sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. If I were you I would tell them that they are very welcome to have their horses with you, but that the colt must go and stand at a proper stud with appropriate facilities.
 
I think SecBmad was meaning how much should she charge her actual livery (stallion owner) every time the stallion covers a mare to use her facilities for the purpose of covering? Not sure if that is because she would be physically assisting with the covering or whether charges like that are commonplace. I've no idea, as my only "covering" experience is with our stock bulls on our cows!
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I would assume she's aware that the mares would have to stay on livery and the mare's owners would be charged accordingly.
 
We have a young stallion on our yard. He is stabled at the far end of the yard (external stables and can only see one mare - my 13hh pony mare! He has his own seperate turnout, well away from any other turnout areas. He, however, has never covered, and the YO and YM have made it clear to his owner that if and when they do use him to cover, he will no longer be welcome at the yard, because they also feel he should be somewhere where professionals are handling him. Think they are actually going to sell him though.
 
you are all helping me a lot, thank you.

this situation may never arise as they have to obtain a licence for him yet. (which knowing what they are like they may never get round to it, as they like to talk the talk with very little action!)

i was brought up on showing, and to me he doesn't have good enough confirmation. i personally would not send a mare of mine to him, as his legs are not straight below his hock.

You have given me a lot to consider, thank you.
 
Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Inexperienced people handling a stallion in an area where there are other liveries. No way!

However good a customer they are either the stallion goes or they do.

The repercussions of an accident could prove to be a financial disaster for you as the owner of the yard.

Get the stallion off the yard now - before there is an accident.
 
We had a stallion at our yard which is a DIY yard. He was keep with all the other horses in an america barn type stabling with a mixture of mares and geldings. He then went away to stud for a few months over the summer to do his covering. Could they not send him to a stud for a few months over the summer for his stud duties then come back for the rest of the year?
 
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