Yard planning advice/experiences needed please!!

[palo1]

We are moving! Our new place is my OH's childhood home and is in need of huge amounts of tlc. It is at about 1300ft up a Welsh mountain and the buildings on the yard were never designed with horses in mind. Currently,here we have an open fronted barn with 2 huge stables that are open with beds made up. We don't use either of the 2 other stables. The barn is on a hard yard that we put in which in turn leads to a winter turnout paddock and summer paddocks. It is super easy, really civilised and the hard standing has been roomy enough for 3 horses to spend a few days on when the winter turnout is under water or grimly muddy. Winter accommodation is probably about 1/2 -3/4 acre total but the horses have room to whizz around and play and can come and go indoors or out. I would like similar at our new place BUT there are a few problems and I could do with advice/experiences. It is possible that in a bad winter horses would need to winter primarily on the yard rather than have access to consistent grazing/mud paddock over winter. I would plan to turn out whenever possible but that will be limited due to clay/mountain/bog conditions!! All horses will be in work/regularly exercised unless veterinary reasons preclude that.

I have to consider the needs of 2 blood type horses (an anglo arab type and another half arab) and a Welsh D with asthma!! I arab type feels the cold and loathes the rain, the other doesn't care what life throws at him. The Welsh mare needs excellent respiratory hygiene but is otherwise v hardy.

2 possible barns/yards for the horses:-

Option 1: huge very open fronted but quite exposed and dire in the occasional easterly wind. Barn is around 100 ft long and 1 bay wide. Apparently can be a struggle to walk from the house to this barn on windy/bleak days (and impossible with an easterly wind which can also blow snow and rain into the barn) !! It could have a good yard in front of it but further expansion beyond about 20- 30m x 10m yard would be impossible. It has good access to the primary fields identified for horses (which is important as I don't want to trudge up a steep hill with excited horses in bleak conditions lol) but inconvenient to OH due to needing modification of current sheep handling pens and one farm track that access is needed to etc. Water but no lighting currently in this barn. Earth floor.

Option 2: Really vast sheep shed; could be opened up somewhat to create better airflow and could be relatively easily split into smaller parts or more flexible use. Earth floor, water and potentially easier to fix lighting. Would require a short walk to turnout fields. Currently a 15m x15m yard possible (and desirable to OH) with further expansion quite possible later on. This barn is sheltered by bands of trees and possibly could have a woodchip paddock installed at the rear or further hard standing as well as the planned hard yard at the front. This shed is more complex but could have sides removed to be more 'open'. Much less bleak generally and designed for lambing so out of really difficult wind conditions. It needs a lot more work to get that option workable and turnout is much less easy. I can walk to this barn from the house very easily even on a vile day without having to seriously fight the elements. The walk to turnout is not difficult BUT OH would rather we either used option 1 with more turnout or option 2 with much less turnout. There are reasons - not least because option 2 is so much bigger ! (think medium sized indoor arena). Horses could easily canter around in this barn (as long as they mind the uprights!!). More expensive to sort out and would need temporary fencing I think for a bit.

Both options would allow for the flexible creation of a box-rest pen of 15x15ft (gates with stockboard).

Budget is quite small for both yards - around 10k but I would prefer to spend the least possible to start with until we know what works and what doesn't. Barns are certainly structurally good enough (though option 2 needs more work to create a big open barn as it has much internal 'furniture' currently.

Turnout will be on 4-5 acres of hill field (ie like an open hill but essentially enclosed). Unlikely to be viable all winter but should be totally sufficient for the horses we have in summer and through dry spells in Autumn and Spring. Trying to work out which option will be best for the horses is really doing my head in tbh!! I hate the idea of them not having easy access to grazing for 6 months of the year potentially BUT at the same time I don't want them to be knee deep in a bog or to trash the hill fields for summer grazing.

I want my mare to have the best possible air flow and respiratory conditions (probably option 1) but my senior horse would not thrive in seriously bleak weather and I would prefer the option of a bigger yard (option 2). I am going round and round in circles not knowing what is likely to be best.

I have questions about earth floors and some really conflicting thoughts about trying to use such tricky turnout in winter. Would plenty of barn and yard space be 'better' than hoping for decent weather for turnout?

What are the potential issues with earth floors (likely to be quite dry and parts could be rubber matted)?

Would an earth floor have implications for respiratory health? I pick up poo 2x daily in any case and could create an area of rubber matting with shavings for horse's convenience lol.

I would be hugely grateful for any insights/experience or advice! I can't really do photos sorry as the property still belongs to my OH's family and it feels insensitive to share before we legally take ownership. Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[The Bouncing Bog Trotter]

I would say that you should store up your ideas, live there
for a full 12 months and then decide. Yes, the first 12 months will be full of compromise and chaos as you make things work around what is there now, but I do recommend waiting. You need to see and experience what all 4 seasons do to the facilities that you have.

We bought some land just over a year ago and our plans have changed in that time because of the experiences over the last 12 months. For a start, a spring popped up in the middle of winter, right where we planned to put a gate, it has disappeared for the summer, and the trees made some sort of wind funnel that meant our new field shelter got totally destroyed in the storms, all meaning that we need to rethink the location of the new stable block.

Can you ’barn’ the horses for the first winter? Keep them in one large barn area together (like over wintering cattle). They can wear turnout rungs inside, have lots of room to move and no trekking to fields.

 

[palo1]

I would say that you should store up your ideas, live there
for a full 12 months and then decide. Yes, the first 12 months will be full of compromise and chaos as you make things work around what is there now, but I do recommend waiting. You need to see and experience what all 4 seasons do to the facilities that you have.

We bought some land just over a year ago and our plans have changed in that time because of the experiences over the last 12 months. For a start, a spring popped up in the middle of winter, right where we planned to put a gate, it has disappeared for the summer, and the trees made some sort of wind funnel that meant our new field shelter got totally destroyed in the storms, all meaning that we need to rethink the location of the new stable block.

Can you ’barn’ the horses for the first winter? Keep them in one large barn area together (like over wintering cattle). They can wear turnout rungs inside, have lots of room to move and no trekking to fields.

Thanks - yes that is possible and we will be able to create an outdoor hard standing in either location. OH knows the farm very well obviously but it is the horse's needs that are confusing me!! Not sure I want to barn the horses like cattle (which is a good idea in fact) because of the 1 mare's respiratory issues which indicate that straw/other bedding can be difficult.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

From experience, I would avoid walking anywhere in a strong east wind. Our field shelter faces east, which is fine unless it snows (built with gaps to allow the wind through, so the roof doesn't disappear). In heavy snow the horses have to come in. We literally cannot walk across the field to where we store some haylage bales, in case we blow over. We get round that problem by having bales on the yard, too.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Firstly you need to find out where the prevailing wind is coming from; obvious I know, but it will be your determining factor when setting things up and you really need to go a full year before you find out for sure where the wind & gales come from! Then you can make decisions accordingly.

Had you thought of putting in a Track system? You have horses with a mixed set of needs and on our Track it IS very possible to manage horses with different grazing requirements. Just a thought!

Your new venture sounds exciting! Good luck.

 

[palo1]

Firstly you need to find out where the prevailing wind is coming from; obvious I know, but it will be your determining factor when setting things up and you really need to go a full year before you find out for sure where the wind & gales come from! Then you can make decisions accordingly.

Had you thought of putting in a Track system? You have horses with a mixed set of needs and on our Track it IS very possible to manage horses with different grazing requirements. Just a thought!

Your new venture sounds exciting! Good luck.

Thank you!! It is exciting but also somewhat logistically challenging. The barns in both options have been built with prevailing winds in consideration - option 1 is currently a fodder store so it doesn't really matter that it is a bit bleak. It has some basic hardcore down in front of it. Option 2 was built as a lambing shed so is more sympathetic to stock and has an embryonic yard in front already. I am not sure how I feel about a track system tbh as having tried one before I ended up hating it so not sure I would go there again. I know they can work brilliantly but mine (around a 3 acre field for a mixed herd including a young sportshorse and an elderly pony) was pretty horrible to maintain. It could have been done better though. I have found a sort of equicentral/barn centred system easier. Also, the investment in a track (even later down the line) is pretty permanent. Potentially my mare could go out to graze more in winter but our 2 geldings are so boisterous they would just plough the wet fields!!

Does anyone have experience of dirt floors in big barns/sheds? What do I need to think about in relation to that?

 

[GoldenWillow]

That is a really hard one in respect of your mare with the respiratory management needs. My mare who had bad equine asthma didn't do particularly well in a barn situation even though the barn had Yorkshire boarding down one side, other side a half wall and was stabled next to the short end which was open. But she was a bad case. Is there any way you can do something temporary until you know how she will cope? Is there a way of making some sort of a wind break to protect the first barn from the worst of the easterly winds? Although that won't solve the problem of you having to fight through the wind to it. Will you be moving before winter and can get a good idea of how things will work before the worst of the weather sets in and you could have time to have a rejig if original plans need to change.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

[QUOTE="palo1, post: 14924442, member: 982

Does anyone have experience of dirt floors in big barns/sheds? What do I need to think about in relation to that?[/QUOTE]




Yes, sorry, I forgot that bit! We have 3 stables with earth floors and 2 with concrete floors. The earth floors work best, as they drain well, You just have to watch for horses that wee in the same place every time and wear a hollow in the floor. Our shelter has an earth floor covered by mud control mats and that works perfectly, even though it's in a wet part of the field (was an existing building originally).

 

[I'm Dun]

Instead of a full track system, could you create a track from barn 2 to the grazing? Barn 1 sounds very bleak and unpleasant for humans and the horse that hates cold and wet.

 

[palo1]

[QUOTE="palo1, post: 14924442, member: 982

Does anyone have experience of dirt floors in big barns/sheds? What do I need to think about in relation to that?

Yes, sorry, I forgot that bit! We have 3 stables with earth floors and 2 with concrete floors. The earth floors work best, as they drain well, You just have to watch for horses that wee in the same place every time and wear a hollow in the floor. Our shelter has an earth floor covered by mud control mats and that works perfectly, even though it's in a wet part of the field (was an existing building originally).[/QUOTE]

Thanks - I can certainly put mats down if needed.

 

[palo1]

Instead of a full track system, could you create a track from barn 2 to the grazing? Barn 1 sounds very bleak and unpleasant for humans and the horse that hates cold and wet.

Sadly not possible for topographical reasons lol!! Barn 1 has a much better layout for airflow and horse health generally I think; nice, high, 3 sided shed that would generally be well sheltered. On occasions very difficult however! An adequate yard could easily be created and opened onto the grazing to create a more equicentral type system. Very short distance from the house too. Barn 2 is much more enclosed but could be opened up to give better airflow but there would still be a huge central space that I don't need for this number of horses and fear could become very labour intensive in terms of poo picking/keeping clean. The horse that hates the cold could be rugged up and it might be possible to create another windbreak for yard/barn 1.

 

[palo1]

That is a really hard one in respect of your mare with the respiratory management needs. My mare who had bad equine asthma didn't do particularly well in a barn situation even though the barn had Yorkshire boarding down one side, other side a half wall and was stabled next to the short end which was open. But she was a bad case. Is there any way you can do something temporary until you know how she will cope? Is there a way of making some sort of a wind break to protect the first barn from the worst of the easterly winds? Although that won't solve the problem of you having to fight through the wind to it. Will you be moving before winter and can get a good idea of how things will work before the worst of the weather sets in and you could have time to have a rejig if original plans need to change.

I think it is possible that my mare could graze more through the winter but she would be on her own. Barn 1 would suit her fine really as it would be hard to find a more 'airy' environment lol. I don't really want either of the other 2 beggars having respiratory issues either tbh so barn 1 is much more appealing in that respect. It may be possible for me to cut a short track from the windbreak trees at the back of the house to that barn/yard to make it easier for me in bad weather too. As I have never lived there I have no idea how bad it might get so everything in the first winter will be something of a learning experience....

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Re. dirt floors; we have a big'ish barn area (about the size of 6 or so loose-boxes) which is dirt-floor.

My advice would be not to overthink it; and certainly don't "do" anything like concrete it over! Ours is the best-drained area of our whole stable yard area and I'm actually pretty envious of the livery who now has that area if I'm honest! You may have to add something like rubber-chips or possibly some course sand at some point just to keep the surface level and to help the drainage, but you shouldn't need to do a lot more. When we used it for my two oldies it never got smelly or wet and was very easy to do; I used shavings.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think it is possible that my mare could graze more through the winter but she would be on her own. Barn 1 would suit her fine really as it would be hard to find a more 'airy' environment lol. I don't really want either of the other 2 beggars having respiratory issues either tbh so barn 1 is much more appealing in that respect. It may be possible for me to cut a short track from the windbreak trees at the back of the house to that barn/yard to make it easier for me in bad weather too. As I have never lived there I have no idea how bad it might get so everything in the first winter will be something of a learning experience....

In that case, I would use barn1 for the first winter, as that won't involve as much work as setting up barn 2 and try to get the track organised for you asap, then see how it goes.

 

[palo1]

Hopefully this image is 'anonymised' enough to remain discreet. It doesn't show that Barn 1 is slightly above the house (H) but does show the block of shelter-belt trees between the house and the barn. Barn 1 is a couple of hundred yards from the open hill. and it's back directly faces a mountain side down which some 'proper' weather comes from. Barn 2 is a little further from the house but sort of level with it and has a good hedge round it as well as being a field away from the open hill. BUT it is Huge and it would be a lot of work to divide it in a way that kept the airflow really positive. I won't have that problem with Barn 1! The area behind Barn 1 could potentially have some hard standing and could be opened up to that field but it would be very bleak. Fine for the Welshie, not so easy for my araby chap. The other one probably wouldn't notice if he was transported to Antartica lol. The space just at the top RHS of Barn 1 is a stone track which is utilised for sheep pens/sheep handling so a fence would need to be put up from the edge of the barn to the trees. The bottom edge of where Barn 1 is outlined is a bog and would need draining or something!! You can see the hill field right behind Barn 1. The yard for Barn 2 is already sort of there and could be extended behind it. Fine for the Welshie, not so easy for my araby chap. The other one probably wouldn't notice if he was transported to Antartica lol. Thank you so much for the ideas and comments; it is really helping me to unscramble what is needed and wanted.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Looks a nice place!

The other thing I'd advise is to get your soil tested at an early stage.

 

[palo1]

Getting carried away now lol!! In this image I have noted potential phase 1 yard for each barn and phase 2 extensions. Barn 1 extension likely to be v unappealing to horses in bad weather... I have also put in a potential path from the house through the trees. It is really helpful doing this!!

 

[palo1]

Looks a nice place!

The other thing I'd advise is to get your soil tested at an early stage.

Thank you! It is a significant challenge as all very run down but in a wonderful spot. Soil testing is already on the cards!! The land has been well looked after and OH is on the case for mineral analysis etc. .

 

[palo1]

Re. dirt floors; we have a big'ish barn area (about the size of 6 or so loose-boxes) which is dirt-floor.

My advice would be not to overthink it; and certainly don't "do" anything like concrete it over! Ours is the best-drained area of our whole stable yard area and I'm actually pretty envious of the livery who now has that area if I'm honest! You may have to add something like rubber-chips or possibly some course sand at some point just to keep the surface level and to help the drainage, but you shouldn't need to do a lot more. When we used it for my two oldies it never got smelly or wet and was very easy to do; I used shavings.

Thanks - liking this advice as it would be relevant for either barn and I would prefer a dirt floor for a number of reasons!

 

[GoldenWillow]

I think it's definitely worth trying the dirt floor unless it proves impossible for a lot of reasons. From a respiratory point of view this is a bit of guess work but the environment should hopefully be damp enough to prevent dust and the particles would be bigger than the likes of dust and pollen spores.

You could feed forage, I'm guessing haylage on rubber matted areas so that you could easily sweep and would prevent her hoovering around in the dirt, or maybe it's only mine who hoovers pretty much everything up!

 

[palo1]

I think it's definitely worth trying the dirt floor unless it proves impossible for a lot of reasons. From a respiratory point of view this is a bit of guess work but the environment should hopefully be damp enough to prevent dust and the particles would be bigger than the likes of dust and pollen spores.

You could feed forage, I'm guessing haylage on rubber matted areas so that you could easily sweep and would prevent her hoovering around in the dirt, or maybe it's only mine who hoovers pretty much everything up!

Thanks. Yes we feed haylage and could deffo put that on mats as we hate waste! Currently we have low tied haynets and I like using those; low down for posture and breathing but not actually on the floor. Mare hoovers anything up!! In the barn 1 arrangement however I should think any loose forage would be blown away quickly.

 

[I'm Dun]

I've changed my mind. Barn 1. Its nowhere near as bleak as I was imagining and seems to be a better set up and location. So definitely barn 1 without making any major changes for the first year while you see how it goes.

Could the horses be given access to the trees? That would provide some shelter but I guess depends on the soil type and what sort of trees they are.

 

[palo1]

I've changed my mind. Barn 1. Its nowhere near as bleak as I was imagining and seems to be a better set up and location. So definitely barn 1 without making any major changes for the first year while you see how it goes.

Could the horses be given access to the trees? That would provide some shelter but I guess depends on the soil type and what sort of trees they are.

Yeah - I am more inclined to think that Barn 1 would be 'better' in several ways but I don't know how bad the wind and weather gets on that bit atm. It is a really different 'feel' to the house which is quite protected. The trees are spruce/fir which need a bit of work; I wouldn't want horses in there tbh either. Not sure what OH would say about that too but I suspect it would soon become a wet muddy mess; they are quite thickly planted so could also be hazardous. But it might be worth considering longer term. Barn no 1 is not quite at the highest point of the farm but I think for horse health it may be best even if the yard had to be smaller. I think if I extended behind the barn they wouldn't use it at all but I could try fencing a bit off/trying woodchip for a few months and seeing what they say!! Virtually no work needed to get that barn and yard sorted for the first year and in order for OH to use it if I decided it didn't work, the hardstanding would still be needed for tractors etc. I am going to have another good look and discuss with OH who is equally boggled by what to do with various knackered barns etc.

 

[I'm Dun]

Could you plant trees/hedging to form a windbreak? Or even something like storing big haylage/straw bales stacked in a line would work.

 

[rextherobber]

Have a look at the Equicentral site, it has loads of brilliant ideas, and their land management and horse behaviour advice is spot on. Lots of blindingly obvious things, once it's been pointed out!

 

[palo1]

Have a look at the Equicentral site, it has loads of brilliant ideas, and their land management and horse behaviour advice is spot on. Lots of blindingly obvious things, once it's been pointed out!

Can you put up a link for the site you would recommend? Thanks. I am kind of familiar with equicentral ideas and use those for the current yard but inspiration for our next place would be great!!

 

[palo1]

Could you plant trees/hedging to form a windbreak? Or even something like storing big haylage/straw bales stacked in a line would work.

Yes, definitely possible and a good idea to use the fodder to provide further windbreaks! Thank you.

 

[palo1]

Has anyone got any recommendations for solar/wind powered barn lighting too? I will start another thread on that but I will probably need that as getting proper leccy to the yard will not be possible immediately. OH is in favour of us using Barn 1 for equines so that feels like a really good step forward in planning. Really grateful for all the ideas and comments.

 

[I'm Dun]

I live on a boat powered by solar, so can probably help with solar questions. I'm just upgrading all mine now, and its relatively straightforward and incredibly economical, although not reliable all year round. If you live somewhere windy and can back it up with a wind turbine it probably will be. It would be just as easy to charge the battery in the house though. If you usage will only be lights then its a very low draw. Running power sockets depends a lot on what your planning to plug into the socket and can get fairly expensive with inverters etc

 

[SpotsandBays]

We have an old earth floor barn that we use for storage. Just fyi, if the rain comes in a certain direction, it can/does get sticky/muddy in the exposed bits! (Ours is a large open door at the front and that’s where it gets muddy)