Yard Workers

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I have a livery yard and at the moment staff are paid on the books PAYE. With the increase in wages and pensions coming in it is getting unprofitable to run the yard. What do other yards do as I don't want to keep putting livery prices up as I will end up losing more customers who are very good clients. Also I don't want to lose my staff which if clients leave I will have to lay one off. Could I employ them as self employed at a higher rate than normal, but which would be cheaper in the long run so not having to put livery prices up again.Then everyone wins.
 
Yes you can, provided your current staff are happy to go self employed.
They would obviously need to cost out their own pensions and insurance plus factor in holiday and sick pay.
 
I work on a yard and I do understand where your coming from. I don't think I'd be overly happy if my employers told me I had to go self employed tbh. If however you can work it so they genuinely don't loose out maybe?
 
Yes, but they can put down mobiles, fuel, work clothes etc against their tax so hopefully will actually be better off. I don't want them to be worse off as I value them and they are good staff. Also, I could afford to pay them more per hour. Will have a word with them and see what they think. Thank you
 
Yes but if the clients leave then they would be totally out of work. This way they can have more in their pocket, work extra hours when they come up and still have their fixed hourly weeks work. Hopefully might even find more customers who would use them too. Will have a meeting with them. Thank you
 
Self employed isn't as clear cut these days, if someone works for you regularly though they submit invoices they are still deemed to be employed by you, not sure what effect this would have on pensions and holiday pay though I think it can be got round.
 
LD&S said:
Self employed isn't as clear cut these days, if someone works for you regularly though they submit invoices they are still deemed to be employed by you, not sure what effect this would have on pensions and holiday pay though I think it can be got round.
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This would be the issue, as if they were only working for you, the revenue may flag this up
 
Have to echo the above.... the revenue flagged this kind of scenario up on a farm worker i know,... reckoned he was self employed but predominately all his working hours invoiced for were from one farm. He did the odd contract work here and their, but neglible in comparison to where the bulk of his earnings was coming from.
 
ihatework said:
Yes you can, provided your current staff are happy to go self employed.
They would obviously need to cost out their own pensions and insurance plus factor in holiday and sick pay.
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Does not work like this anymore, legally even if they are self employed if they only work for you you have to pay sick, holiday and contributions.
My brother is a self employed hairdresser and is in the process of legally fighting for these things.
 
twiggy2 said:
Does not work like this anymore, legally even if they are self employed if they only work for you you have to pay sick, holiday and contributions.
My brother is a self employed hairdresser and is in the process of legally fighting for these things.
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I'm self employed. Sometimes I work for a single client, sometimes I run two clients alongside each other. I'm paid on the face of it considerably more than an employee.
I have to factor in and pay all the additional costs of self employment.
I would never morally try and sting a client for holiday/sick/contributions.

NOW, if employers are just doing this to get around their legal obligations, sure this is wrong and shouldn't be allowed. But providing the OP treats the employees like freelancers, who set their own rate and can if they wish work elsewhere alongside then it is perfectly fine.
 
To be honest OP the moment you change the HMRC will be all over you and checking out your labour arrangements. For your now employees to be classed as self employed will be very difficult as to put it in their jargon. To be classed as self employed they need to show they do not have any arrangement that means they have to turn up and they need to be able to take entrepreneurial risk which in laymans terms means they have to supply their own equipment. I fail to see how you will be better off and they certainly wont be . Im guessing your hoping they will carry on and not declare what their earning!
Sorry as much as I sympathise you have two choices put up livery or pack up.
 
ihatework said:
NOW, if employers are just doing this to get around their legal obligations, sure this is wrong and shouldn't be allowed. But providing the OP treats the employees like freelancers, who set their own rate and can if they wish work elsewhere alongside then it is perfectly fine.
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^^^
This, exactly. You cannot be their only employer OP.
 
Are there not other ways you can generate some additional income to keep the yard afloat? Offering the school for hire to outside riders maybe?
 
Can you offer any of the following:

Breaking/schooling packages

Lessons

Hiring school out to clubs/ private/ local dog agility groups / Pony club

Holiday Boarding, depending on where you are located, join up with B&G's / pubs

Turn your own yard into a Stud / Polo yard, as I understand tax and planning works in these premises'.

Diversity is the key . . . are you near a college, perhaps you can offer 'placements' for those wanting to join the industry.

Any chance you can run a B&B if you live on site?

Rent out lock ups?

Any buildings you can convert in to offices for 'start up companies', these are much needed, as starter companies need a small area to grow and move on when they expand . .these would bring regular income in.

Any buildings you can put in for conversion/ planning permission to residential? Cash injection to your business . .
 
ditto the HMRC being all over you. If you staff become self employed but gain all their employment for your livery yard the HMRC will consider them to be employees of yours.
 
Not only could it cause problems with HMRC but surely if they did go self employed and then they found better work elsewhere they would not have to give you any notice whatsoever that they wouldn't be coming to do any work for you anymore so you could find yourself in a difficult situation of no staff turning up one morning and you having to quickly find replacement(s). If they remained employed then they would have a contract with of notice of termination of employment giving you time to find the right replacement.
 
ihatework said:
I'm self employed. Sometimes I work for a single client, sometimes I run two clients alongside each other. I'm paid on the face of it considerably more than an employee.
I have to factor in and pay all the additional costs of self employment.
I would never morally try and sting a client for holiday/sick/contributions.

NOW, if employers are just doing this to get around their legal obligations, sure this is wrong and shouldn't be allowed. But providing the OP treats the employees like freelancers, who set their own rate and can if they wish work elsewhere alongside then it is perfectly fine.
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Legally if you work long term for only one person they are your employee, the government have done this so employers cannot shirk their responsibility to their employees regarding sick/holiday pay and contributions etc, chaining these things is a right and nothing to do with morals.
 
You should put the livery prices up. You shouldn't need to compromise your business, or your employees.

Is there anything extra you can offer as standard in the livery package to help make the costs easier for liveries to accept? eg turnout and bring in? Free clipping? It depends how much spare capacity your staff have.
 
twiggy2 said:
Does not work like this anymore, legally even if they are self employed if they only work for you you have to pay sick, holiday and contributions.
My brother is a self employed hairdresser and is in the process of legally fighting for these things.
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That's because a person in that scenario isn't "legally self employed" they're legally an employee. Registering yourself as self employed is not enough to make you self employed, your working practices are taken into account too. Hope your brother is successful.

OP if you have a good yard I'd put the prices up, there are so many bad yards that there will always be a market for a good one, even if it is much more expensive.
 
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