Yearling loosing protein.

[Muddy_wellies]

I purchased a yearling on 1st April, within a day or so he had started coughing. Day 3 of owning him the vet came out. Gave him bute as she suspected a respiratory infection. Refused to give antibiotics as no temp. 16th April he was really poorly, diarrhoea, high temp, coughing and nasal discharge. Vet came out more bute and antibiotics given. He seemed to improve until he finished the medication, by the 24th April he was poorly again with same symptoms as before and large swellings around his throat. Vet was concerned about strangles so came out the following day to do a blood test. Treatment also resumed the same as before. Bloods came back low protein, low albumin, low globulin, low serum iron, low MCV, high lymphocytes. We were advised to work him with Equest Paradox, and bloods were sent to another lab to check for Lawsonia. He was also started on paracetamol, taken off bute and given a liquid antibiotic. The night following the worming he started colicking (29th April). He was given intravenus meds, which settled him. The following day a steriod injection was given. By the Monday he was colicking again, another steriod injection was given.it was decided to keep him on steriods in powder form until we know what’s going on. Today the results for lawsonia have come back negative. So antibiotics have been stopped. Still on steriods. Vets not quiet sure what to do next. He’s lost a lot of weight and ribs are visible. He is eating okay, and stools aren’t loose. Swellings have also gone down since starting the liquid antibiotics. Sorry this is so long, I’m just stumped on what to do, what to give him. I’m wondering if anyone has come across something similar.

 

[rabatsa]

As someone said on the other thread - redworms. I learnt the hard way not to harshly worm a youngster that had never been wormed. Mine died from haemoraging due to encysted redworm being released after being done. Now I worm to kill the encysted worms, then worm for the adult worms.

I have also had older horses with poor nutrient uptake and dicky guts from scarring caused by redworm damage as a youngster.

 

[Muddy_wellies]

As someone said on the other thread - redworms. I learnt the hard way not to harshly worm a youngster that had never been wormed. Mine died from haemoraging due to encysted redworm being released after being done. Now I worm to kill the encysted worms, then worm for the adult worms.

I have also had older horses with poor nutrient uptake and dicky guts from scarring caused by redworm damage as a youngster.

He was wormed with paramox for red worms (under vet guidance, it was a mistake as it triggered the colic). She seems to think that would of cleared them. He didn’t pass any that I could see. I’m going to submit a faecal egg count on Monday.

 

[Pinkvboots]

He was wormed with paramox for red worms (under vet guidance, it was a mistake as it triggered the colic). She seems to think that would of cleared them. He didn’t pass any that I could see. I’m going to submit a faecal egg count on Monday.

I actually can't believe a vet gave a poorly yearling Pramox that is bad, my friend wormed her 2 year old with it and he was at the vets 3 weeks recovering it was touch and go for a while.

I really hope you get to the bottom of it fingers crossed he starts to improve.

 

[paddy555]

I actually can't believe a vet gave a poorly yearling Pramox that is bad, my friend wormed her 2 year old with it and he was at the vets 3 weeks recovering it was touch and go for a while.

I really hope you get to the bottom of it fingers crossed he starts to improve.

I shudder as well. I posted on the other thread about this. With mine t he horse hospital noted his worming history, took a dung sample to count and then sent off an ELISA blood test for tapes. All came back negative. I would have been furious if they had just jumped in with any wormer and if it was pramox I would have refused to allow it.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I shudder as well. I posted on the other thread about this. With mine t he horse hospital noted his worming history, took a dung sample to count and then sent off an ELISA blood test for tapes. All came back negative. I would have been furious if they had just jumped in with any wormer and if it was pramox I would have refused to allow it.

I won't use at all for anything my big strapping warmblood mare had a bad reaction to it it literally knocked her for 6, and after what happened to my friends youngster I just wouldn't use it again it's just such strong stuff I just think it's just too much for a lot of horses.

 

[Muddy_wellies]

I actually can't believe a vet gave a poorly yearling Pramox that is bad, my friend wormed her 2 year old with it and he was at the vets 3 weeks recovering it was touch and go for a while.

I really hope you get to the bottom of it fingers crossed he starts to improve.

I didn’t realise it was such a strong wormer, and trusted that my vet would do the best for my horse. I have used it on older horses in the past. Reading some of the posts on here is making me question the treatment my boy is getting. Last weekend was awful, 4 emergency visits. Thankfully he is still with us. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I didn’t realise it was such a strong wormer, and trusted that my vet would do the best for my horse. I have used it on older horses in the past. Reading some of the posts on here is making me question the treatment my boy is getting. Last weekend was awful, 4 emergency visits. Thankfully he is still with us. Thank you for your reply.

I don't think a lot of people realise how strong it is and how many horses it has made ill.

Is he in a large equine hospital or at you regular vets?

 

[Muddy_wellies]

I don't think a lot of people realise how strong it is and how many horses it has made ill.

Is he in a large equine hospital or at you regular vets?

He’s at home under vet care. I’d only had him a couple of days when I first got the vet to see him regarding a cough. He’s gone down him from there. I had wormed him with Eqvalan two weeks prior to the vet wanting me to worm him with paramox. She said Eqvalan didn’t cover the worms that she wanted targeting. The vet said she will speak with a vet hospital on Monday about our next steps. No faecal egg counts have been done, and I don’t think they’ve done bloods on the liver either. I’m submitting a private faecal egg count on Monday to the local university testing centre.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would want him referred to a bigger practice they just literally cover everything and if he does need to go in his in the best place possible, I would really push that for Monday and then hopefully you will get some idea what is going on, saying that the pramox can really cause some extreme symptoms so it could be that a lot of what is going on now is because of that.

My friends 2 year old literally kept falling over and had multiple colic episodes he was just so weak they nearly lost him a few times, I think its much worse if they are compromised by something else going on and really seems to affect young horses.

Please let us know how you get on Monday I hope he improves over the weekend ?

 

[paddy555]

fingers crossed for you. Not sure where you are in the country. Western Counties equine had mine and were excellent. His vet was Anna Mitchell who is now at B & W in Glos area. She was an intern at the time at WC but she was amazing.

 

[Kazz3uk]

I've replied to you on my PLE thread. XX

 

[Muddy_wellies]

I would want him referred to a bigger practice they just literally cover everything and if he does need to go in his in the best place possible, I would really push that for Monday and then hopefully you will get some idea what is going on, saying that the pramox can really cause some extreme symptoms so it could be that a lot of what is going on now is because of that.

My friends 2 year old literally kept falling over and had multiple colic episodes he was just so weak they nearly lost him a few times, I think its much worse if they are compromised by something else going on and really seems to affect young horses.

Please let us know how you get on Monday I hope he improves over the weekend ?

The blood tests shown the low protein after the Eqvalan but before the paramox. He colicked about 36 hrs after the paramox. My problem with transferring him to a vet hospital is the cost, sadly id only had him 2 days before he needed a vet, I hadn’t had the chance to have a vet certificate done as I collected him on a Friday evening, vet was with me Monday due to the coughing. So I have no insurance to help with the cost. I’ve had 9 visits in 3 weeks, 5 of them out of hours. Thank you for your replies, talking to someone helps.

 

[Kazz3uk]

My boy was only insured for accident. So I totally understand how hard it is financially.

I'm dreading my bill from Rainbow ?

 

[Muddy_wellies]

Update….I spoken with my vet today. She has had advise from a referral centre that’s it’s likely some kind of juvenile worm infestation. I can’t remember the proper name she used. He’s to go on to a different kind of steroid and have a moxidectin wormer every 10 to 14 days, then in a months time, bloods will be done to see if the protein and albium levels have increased. This routine will remain (providing they improve) until they are at a normal level. I’m hoping that the moxidectin won’t trigger more bouts of colic. He seems to be much better in himself since starting steroids, he has much more energy; standing for longer in the stable and wanting to gallop about in the field.

 

[SEL]

Update….I spoken with my vet today. She has had advise from a referral centre that’s it’s likely some kind of juvenile worm infestation. I can’t remember the proper name she used. He’s to go on to a different kind of steroid and have a moxidectin wormer every 10 to 14 days, then in a months time, bloods will be done to see if the protein and albium levels have increased. This routine will remain (providing they improve) until they are at a normal level. I’m hoping that the moxidectin won’t trigger more bouts of colic. He seems to be much better in himself since starting steroids, he has much more energy; standing for longer in the stable and wanting to gallop about in the field.

If it's just Equest (green box) then it's a single chemical unlike Equest Pramox (blue box) which has two chemicals and is known for being tough on stomachs and particularly tough on already poorly horses

If the vet wants to do the blue box then personally I'd stand my ground and ask for a blood test for tapeworm. Unless your youngster has a tapeworm burden you can stick with green box.

I hope your little one keeps improving - you've had a tough time

 

[Muddy_wellies]

If it's just Equest (green box) then it's a single chemical unlike Equest Pramox (blue box) which has two chemicals and is known for being tough on stomachs and particularly tough on already poorly horses

If the vet wants to do the blue box then personally I'd stand my ground and ask for a blood test for tapeworm. Unless your youngster has a tapeworm burden you can stick with green box.

I hope your little one keeps improving - you've had a tough time

Thank you. She said equest is fine to use, he only needs the moxidectin, not the other active ingredient. I’m a bit nervous about working every 10 to 14 days ?

 

[Pinkvboots]

Update….I spoken with my vet today. She has had advise from a referral centre that’s it’s likely some kind of juvenile worm infestation. I can’t remember the proper name she used. He’s to go on to a different kind of steroid and have a moxidectin wormer every 10 to 14 days, then in a months time, bloods will be done to see if the protein and albium levels have increased. This routine will remain (providing they improve) until they are at a normal level. I’m hoping that the moxidectin won’t trigger more bouts of colic. He seems to be much better in himself since starting steroids, he has much more energy; standing for longer in the stable and wanting to gallop about in the field.

Glad to hear his much better I suppose you could try just a very small amount of wormer and see if his ok, but because its just equest he should be OK fingers crossed.

Such bad luck all this happening after 2 days of owning him ?

 

[ycbm]

Glad to hear his much better I suppose you could try just a very small amount of wormer and see if his ok,

I don't know if you meant this how it sounds but it's a very bad idea to under dose wormers, it creates drug resistant worms and then you're really sunk.
.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I don't know if you meant this how it sounds but it's a very bad idea to under dose wormers, it creates drug resistant worms and then you're really sunk.
.

I know that but I would do it rather than risk my horse getting colic and considering she has been told to do it so frequently if the first few doses are a bit under I don't think it will make that much of a difference really, as eventually he will be getting the right dose without the risk of colic hopefully.

 

[ycbm]

I know that but I would do it rather than risk my horse getting colic and considering she has been told to do it so frequently if the first few doses are a bit under I don't think it will make that much of a difference really, as eventually he will be getting the right dose without the risk of colic hopefully.

That's how you create a worm burden that can't be got rid of by any currently available drug. The dose has to be in one shot, you can't wait to see whether the horse colics from it. If you create drug resistance, then you are in big, big trouble.

Please don't ever under dose a wormer!
.

 

[dorsetladette]

That's how you create a worm burden that can't be got rid of by any currently available drug. The dose has to be in one shot, you can't wait to see whether the horse colics from it. If you create drug resistance, then you are in big, big trouble.

Please don't ever under dose a wormer!
.

Both our babes came with worm burdens. Pretty horrendous in the newest addition. We wormed with Equest (green one), but no improvement. Huge adult worms appearing regularly in droppings, pony quite lethargic etc etc etc. Spoke to vet who suggested waiting 2 weeks and worm counting. came back very high again. Wormed with Pyratape and the results were pretty telling. I don't think I've ever seen quite so many worms in a pile a droppings. like more worms than poo! We wormed every 2 weeks for 6 weeks and now we wait and worm count again. And hope for a better result. He is much happier and healthier in himself so i hope we've broken the cycle now.

I think ivermectin and moxidectin have both been used to a point where worms are now becoming resistant and we are going to have to start using alternatives.

 

[Pinkvboots]

That's how you create a worm burden that can't be got rid of by any currently available drug. The dose has to be in one shot, you can't wait to see whether the horse colics from it. If you create drug resistance, then you are in big, big trouble.

Please don't ever under dose a wormer!
.

Please don't tell me what to do I have had an horrendous night nursing one of my own with colic so I am very tetchy this morning and unfortunately I will do whatever I feel the need to do to prevent any horse from colic.

There is resistance anyway with certain drugs as the other poster has mentioned so that ship ship has sailed unfortunately.

 

[Muddy_wellies]

Please don't tell me what to do I have had an horrendous night nursing one of my own with colic so I am very tetchy this morning and unfortunately I will do whatever I feel the need to do to prevent any horse from colic.

There is resistance anyway with certain drugs as the other poster has mentioned so that ship ship has sailed unfortunately.

I hope your horse is much better this morning.

 

[SEL]

Thank you. She said equest is fine to use, he only needs the moxidectin, not the other active ingredient. I’m a bit nervous about working every 10 to 14 days ?

If he reacts the first time then hopefully you wouldn't be advised to do it again after 14 days, but otherwise it has a pretty good safety margin in healthy horses. It starts to leave the system at around 14 days which I guess is why they are asking you to dose again then to try and shift the resistant burden.

I really hope this works out for you.

@Pinkvboots hope your colic case is feeling better

 

[Pinkvboots]

I hope your horse is much better this morning.

Thank you his back to normal thankfully!

 

[ycbm]

Please don't tell me what to do I have had an horrendous night nursing one of my own with colic so I am very tetchy this morning and unfortunately I will do whatever I feel the need to do to prevent any horse from colic.

There is resistance anyway with certain drugs as the other poster has mentioned so that ship ship has sailed unfortunately.

I'm sorry you are having a bad time, but I'm afraid I will continue to beg anyone not to recommend under dosing a wormer or an antibiotic or any other drug designed to kill things. Your theory that the correct drug dose is delivered over time does not stack up, it has to be mg/kg of horse in one dose to work. It's a seriously bad idea to under dose and no vet would support it.

You can of course ignore me, but at least other forum readers will understand that it's a bad idea and why.

Resistance isn't universal, there are pockets around the country of resistance to different drugs in different areas and anything we can do to prevent those areas increasing will help. There are no new drugs coming along, if we lose the effectiveness of the ones we've got we are all in big trouble.

I hope your horse continues to improve today.
.

 

[rabatsa]

I fully agree with ycbm about under dosing and wormer resistance.

No one should ever under dose without it being under CLOSE vet supervision and even then the only cases I have known have been in serious welfare cases where the animal is literally at deaths door from starvation and the drug used was a very old one, not any of the later ones.