Yearling throwing himself on the ground!

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Flora

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Need help please! I have a yearling who has been great picking up his feet since he was born. However, the last few months he has been getting abcesses due to grit up the white line. He has been getting his feet dug out by the vet and farrier and treatments applied. He has now decided that when you pick up his feet, he throws himself on the ground. I have spent time just picking his feet up and he is fine, its the minute you touch his foot with anything that he does it. Sometimes you have no warning, other times you get a slight warning and I give him a poke in the belly but it doesn't work. As he is getting bigger, he is about 14.2hh now, I want to nip it in the bud now, plus I don't want him to learn this is a way of evading something he doesn't like!!
 
Poor little chap, he is only doing what comes naturally having painful abscesses treated is hardly something he doesn't like it must really hurt, it will take time for him to learn to trust having his feet dealt with normally, I would give him as much time as he needs, make it something he gets rewarded for rather than getting cross when he over reacts give a treat for being good when he accepts you picking them up then introduce a hoof pick and treat again.
I would look at why he is getting abscesses the white line must be stretched and his feet compromised to have several, a change of diet may be required if you have not already done so.
 
This is going to be an interesting one !

Potentially it really could escalate into a massive problem. My thoughts would be to take away his awareness of what is happening when the vet/farrier has to deal with him by using sedation. Is he nearing the end of his treatment and able to be left alone to forget his sore feet ?

I have an old retired horse who had a bout of septic feet, I started putting linseed in his feed and his feet improved a lot.

I would try to continue with the daily lifting of feet and use my finger to pick out any stones, maybe use surgical gloves to stop your fingers getting sore. I can see your fears of him developing his avoidance tactics to other issues that are going to happen to him as he grows up. Be interesting to hear other peoples thoughts on this one.
 
Just returned to this one in the hope there would be more thoughts.

My homebred filly, Alice, kicked a gate post when she was 11 months and ended up in a Robert Jones and shut in for six weeks. Scans/xrays etc.

Alice has a golden temperament but she soon got fed up of having her hind leg messed with and began half hearted kicking out which escalated to the real thing, when I or the vet got anywhere near the limb.

A year on she has forgotten all about it and there are no problems with messing around her legs.
 
AA this is reassuring as my filly seems to have pain rememberance (is that even a word) on one of her hinds which was treated by a vet 5 months ago and now she is touchy with it, spesh with farrier, lesson learnt ask for sedation before vet starts fiddling with wounds!

Watching thread with interest as not something I've come across before. I would just say carefully watch for the warning signs and stop on a positive before she can react like this.
 
Poor little chap, its his way of saying he has had enough.

I agree with the sedating him for the remainder of the treatment (if there is any more). After that when you do things with his feet, try offering him a lickit as a treat and distraction rather than a poke (he is, after all doing this for a reasonable reason if he has had his sore feet messed with a lot as a baby)? Only do tiny things at a time, and make a huge fuss of him while you do it.
 
One of my donkeys is a nightmare for the farrier or the vet with his feet. I really can't explain why, we have owned him since weaning from his mother and his feet have been trimmed every couple of months for the last 12 years, still no improvement in his disposition. In sheer desperation I got some ProKalm and gave him a pretty hefty dose of that an hour before the farrier's visit.

I wish I had tried this years ago, now the grumpy old devil stands quietly munching some hay whilst the farrier trims him. I promise I have no financial or other interest in promoting the product, it just so happens it works for us. :) Could be worth a try.
 
Alice had a boxy hoof and needed specialist trimming from 2 months of age plus physio which I had to do.

The first trim was awful to watch, my farrier and a specialist foal farrier working together. Alice was a very peaceful foal but even she was over whelmed and had a little moment. The trimming had to be done every 2 weeks and I had to stretch her pastern daily, she also had to be kept on hard standing for a while so she did her own physio.

Within a week or 2 she would give her 'bad' foot to anyone who spoke to her and now 2 years on she still waves it at me. The attention that foot got has resulted in her developing annoying habits, she paws at things, bangs the door and will stamp the foot if she gets cross. She never uses the left fore, always her 'bad' foot. I have a feeling she might not grow out of that and I have had to board or mesh gates in her paddocks.

These young horses are not daft and when pain is a factor who can blame them for getting upset. I do think for the OP's horse sedation is the way to go - what he doesn't know about, he won't worry about sort of theory. Hopefully when he is pain free and left alone he will settle and forget.
 
Hmm, I'm going to sound evil but I have used to great effect another method, although you have to give the horse enough rope to hang himself so to speak. Since this was triggered by an event, I would go the softly softly approach for a little while longer, I agree, try a calmer, perhaps even clicker training. However, there comes a point at which you know, the horse knows better and is pushing the boundaries. In such a case, my old girl knew I would let go of the hoof, rather than see her take a nosedive (round one to her). In the end, I bedded her down in the deepest bed known to man, went in with her armed with a hoof pick, picked up her hoof, waited until she was distributing her weight further than I'd ever let it go before, released the hoof and stepped back, she fell onto the nice comfy bed, and although she didn't hurt herself, she bloody well knew she didn't like falling more than she didn't like her feet being picked out, (round two to me). From that day she was a saint with her hooves until she died ten years later.

Some people may call me a cow, but I think that benefit of the doubt must be given, but sometimes you have to move on from benefit of the doubt and take the next step if its appropriate. I suppose though, it very much depends on how in tune you are with the horse you are handling, you have to 'know' them well and know if its appropriate to call their bluff in any given situation.
 
My now eight year old mare got one when she was a yearling. They are incredibly painful so please do go the fuss and kindness route, rather than anger. I would give her a tasty feed whilst someone else did her hoof..and gave plenty of praise. She wasn't keen on that foot being touched for about four years, thinking it was going to hurt.
 
Flora said:
Need help please! I have a yearling who has been great picking up his feet since he was born. However, the last few months he has been getting abcesses due to grit up the white line. He has been getting his feet dug out by the vet and farrier and treatments applied. He has now decided that when you pick up his feet, he throws himself on the ground. I have spent time just picking his feet up and he is fine, its the minute you touch his foot with anything that he does it. Sometimes you have no warning, other times you get a slight warning and I give him a poke in the belly but it doesn't work. As he is getting bigger, he is about 14.2hh now, I want to nip it in the bud now, plus I don't want him to learn this is a way of evading something he doesn't like!!
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Going right back to the beginning - I reckon the poor boy has had enough as well!! I am not sure that grit in a stretched white line will cause an abcess.....abcesses are usually the bodies way of eliminated dead tissue or such things as thorns...but the problem is actually the stretched white line...and this needs attention!! It can only be addressed by improving the new horn growth from the coronet....I would suggest going to the Phoenixhorse site and getting more expert opinion than mine!! A mineral balancer seems to be needed and good trimming with plenty of exercise on a good firm surface.....if grit is a problem then some form of protection - not shoes!! Listen to what he is telling you!!! Good luck.
 
Queenbee said:
Hmm, I'm going to sound evil but I have used to great effect another method, although you have to give the horse enough rope to hang himself so to speak. Since this was triggered by an event, I would go the softly softly approach for a little while longer, I agree, try a calmer, perhaps even clicker training. However, there comes a point at which you know, the horse knows better and is pushing the boundaries. In such a case, my old girl knew I would let go of the hoof, rather than see her take a nosedive (round one to her). In the end, I bedded her down in the deepest bed known to man, went in with her armed with a hoof pick, picked up her hoof, waited until she was distributing her weight further than I'd ever let it go before, released the hoof and stepped back, she fell onto the nice comfy bed, and although she didn't hurt herself, she bloody well knew she didn't like falling more than she didn't like her feet being picked out, (round two to me). From that day she was a saint with her hooves until she died ten years later.

Some people may call me a cow, but I think that benefit of the doubt must be given, but sometimes you have to move on from benefit of the doubt and take the next step if its appropriate. I suppose though, it very much depends on how in tune you are with the horse you are handling, you have to 'know' them well and know if its appropriate to call their bluff in any given situation.
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I actually quite like this method for a horse you know if taking the pee - it was set up so the horse gave itself consequences with no risk of injury.
 
Have you checked your feed for the white line disease and abscess, too much grass not all horses can tolerate, read up pete ramsey barefoot, and products for white line disease, try equine podiatrist supplies on the net. When his feet dont hurt he should stop it, maybe the other foot is so pai ful when you pick up the nearest one he cant hold his weight
 
fburton said:
How do you know if a horse is "taking the pee"? What does it actually mean?
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Yes I wonder that as well.

I agree with those who say his hoof health needs addressing. Have a read of the last two articles here, especially the Teddy two shoes one.
http://forageplus.co.uk/category/hoof-abscesses/

Slow regaining of his confidence with hoof handling will be needed along with relearning. Keep any sessions very short and put his hoof down before he starts to worry even if that means only lifting it for a few seconds to start with. Don't get into the hanging on scenario, he knows already how to deal with that one!
 
fburton said:
How do you know if a horse is "taking the pee"? What does it actually mean?
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Hmm, I suppose its a combination of instinct with a healthy dollop of knowing your horse and being able to read it. I could recognise, pain, fear, indifference, excitement, contentment anger and stress in my horse. Ebony used to snatch and lean to avoid picking her feet up, she just didn't want to, there was no fear or pain just indifference and a belief she could get away with it. It had started a few years before I bought her when she snatched her foot from someone and they let her get away with it. Annie our cob on the other hand, she had a serious and true fear, she trembled head to foot, tried to run through and away from you... That took a completely different approach.

I fail to see what the big hoo haa is, people can spot responses driven by other reactions/emotions but not a horse taking the pee?! Like everything else in this world it's based on an educated guess, instinct and knowledge of the horse. I'm actually shocked that you and amandap seem to be implying that you would be unable to tell when a horse was taking the pee.
 
Queenbee said:
I'm actually shocked that you and amandap seem to be implying that you would be unable to tell when a horse was taking the pee.
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That's because I am not convinced they do. I do think they can learn ways to avoid things but I don't think they do it to show us up or to annoy us, which is what 'taking the pee' means to me.
Obviously, I can't speak for fburton.

As an aside I've been watching some videos on you tube and the horse keep 'resting' a back hoof. This is interpreted by the trainer as relaxation so the horse can't be stressed. I see a tense, rigid horse, not moving a muscle, breathing fast but shallow, sweating and ready to jump/run.
I've heard it called a 'running foot', a sign of worry/tension, which fits with what I saw in the situation I watched.

ps. Obviously the context is important.
 
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Queenbee said:
I fail to see what the big hoo haa is, people can spot responses driven by other reactions/emotions but not a horse taking the pee?! Like everything else in this world it's based on an educated guess, instinct and knowledge of the horse. I'm actually shocked that you and amandap seem to be implying that you would be unable to tell when a horse was taking the pee.
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No big hoo-hah, just mild puzzlement.

To my mind, the implication of "taking the pee" is that the horse is being unreasonable, or wants to make some kind of negative point vis-à-vis us, such as showing contempt. That doesn't make any sense to me. But it's not really what you mean, is it?

What you're saying is that the horse doesn't want to do something and the act of avoiding doing it isn't motivated by either fear or pain but by something else. It could be that they dislike what they are being asked to do, maybe because it's uncomfortable or too much like work or takes them away from something they would prefer to be doing. There aren't any strong emotions involved - hence 'indifference'. So why not just say the horse doesn't want to do it? What does saying it's "taking the pee" add that is useful? :confused3:
 
amandap said:
That's because I am not convinced they do. I do think they can learn ways to avoid things but I don't think they do it to show us up or to annoy us, which is what 'taking the pee' means to me.
Obviously, I can't speak for fburton.

As an aside I've been watching some videos on you tube and the horse keep 'resting' a back hoof. This is interpreted by the trainer as relaxation so the horse can't be stressed. I see a tense, rigid horse, not moving a muscle, breathing fast but shallow, sweating and ready to jump/run.
I've heard it called a 'running foot', a sign of worry/tension, which fits with what I saw in the situation I watched.

ps. Obviously the context is important.
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fburton said:
No big hoo-hah, just mild puzzlement.

To my mind, the implication of "taking the pee" is that the horse is being unreasonable, or wants to make some kind of negative point vis-à-vis us, such as showing contempt. That doesn't make any sense to me. But it's not really what you mean, is it?

What you're saying is that the horse doesn't want to do something and the act of avoiding doing it isn't motivated by either fear or pain but by something else. It could be that they dislike what they are being asked to do, maybe because it's uncomfortable or too much like work or takes them away from something they would prefer to be doing. There aren't any strong emotions involved - hence 'indifference'. So why not just say the horse doesn't want to do it? What does saying it's "taking the pee" add that is useful? :confused3:
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Amandap, I completely agree, the context is incredibly important. I don't think horses do things to show us up or annoy us, but fburton neither do I. Believe its just because of a pain/discomfort reaction. Some horses learn a behaviour because of some other reason, it becomes habitual and stronger than your normal methods of breaking/altering the behaviour. For example, my mare used to pick up her hooves, she then had a handler that she could snatch her hooves from, she learnt that the more forceful he was, the more forceful her resistant reaction should be. Her only focus was on achieving her goal which she now believed was not picking up her feet. Seems to me, if we take the op's situation, the similar can be applied, the horses goal is not picking up his feet, pain is not an issue, but he knows that in the past his owner has been tentative and we all know that horses can and do play on weaknesses, that is the mentality of a horse. Horses are most definitely not dogs, but I always remember caesar Milan saying we should never look at history, because we use it as an excuse or reason for behaviour, fine it may be where the behaviour manifests but to use history as our guide only gives more accommodation for the wrong behaviour because we become more accepting of it. If we draw a line and say whatever the past, this behaviour is unacceptable (excepting an EXISTING medical condition) then our boundaries and expectations are communicated clearly to the horse, if not we are inclined to allow it to push things, to 'take the pee'. In my mind, taking the pee, is doing something that is not wanted and for no medical reason, because it is a learned behaviour of resistance/avoidance.
 
Well in that case, Queenbee, I think we are pretty much in full agreement - except about what to call it. :)

If the consequence of ascribing a horse's behaviour to "taking the pee" is that the handler is resolved to set a definite boundary, then it is probably okay - maybe even a good thing. However, if it makes the handler think that the horse is somehow blameworthy and therefore deserving of more harsh treatment than it would otherwise receive, I am not so keen. Just my opinion.

What are your thoughts on the pros and cons of enforcing strict boundaries abruptly?

Once the handler has decided -- taking context into consideration, of course -- that a horse's behaviour is not due to pain or fear and has thought "Right, enough taking the pee!", he/she could make the penalty for not showing the desired behaviour quite severe and be prepared to up the ante until the horse does what is wanted. Alternatively, the handler can decide where they want the boundary to be (i.e. what behaviour they want) and work towards getting there as fast as possible but also as slowly as necessary, "taking the time it takes". I think that represents a real difference in approach. Basically, my worry is that labelling something as "taking the pee" could bias someone towards the hard-line approach when a more softly-softly one might be more effective, e.g. avoid upset and/or making it more likely in the future for the horse to comply with the boundary you have set.

That's not to say that taking the latter route is being soft on the horse and letting it get away with bad behaviour. The boundary you have set is still there and is consistently observed and reinforced once the horse has learned what is expected.
 
I am having a similar problem with my lad.

I got my lad a year and a half ago he was 3 nearly 4 had come from ireland, had never had his feet handled , anyway a few months of hard work and away we went he soon got the hang of it.

Recently he had a problem with maggots in his feet which made him foot sore, at first he was fine but the more i treated the more stibborn he got and flatly refused at one point to have his feet pciked up and if he did pick them up he kicked, i used the lead rein technique to get round it whilst i needed to keep treating and this helped. anyway his feet are pretty much healed now vet is happy he is no longer sore however he is still being difficult, he will now pick them up but on front mostly he will push his knee to the floor effectively trying to put all his weight onto me and he will go right down.(he is a big 15.3 cob).

I tried lifting his foot up higher , didnt help, tried poking him gently, didnt help so i tried saying no in a stern voice, worked a few times but then back to sqaure one. Anyway a week ago he did it with extra avengance and when he didnt get his way he promptly tried to walk forward meaning for a moment both front feet were of the floor hence me not being strong enough to hold up his front end so down he went onto his knees and bashed his nose. (luckily we were on the soft grass so he didnt harm himself) but the shock seems to have done the trick as he hasnt done it since lol.
Not what i would advise but think he scared himself enough not to do it again and has been an angel since x
 
Sometimes a shock like that is all it takes.

ETA: Though that doesn't mean that a shock is always necessary, of course - there may well be other ways to teach the horse.
 
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