Yes, it is your fault!!

Pale Rider

Pale Rider

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Someone I know has just had their horse PTS by the vet. Why, laminitis. She was warned about it, because she overfed sugar filled crap feed.
Now, she has had a vet in who knows nothing about barefoot recovery, and between the vet and the farrier they have made things worse.
The horse is now dead, so much wailing, and saying how nothing could be done.
Well it could, between them they've killed a good horse.
 
Poor horse.
I feel your anger, I see daily the fattest horse I've ever seen actively stuffed with feed and 3 nets of haylage a day. Lami every spring but the idiot won't learn and cobs are meant to be that fat............... :(
 
I used to know a women who let a lami probe welsh a pony out on really good spring grass and it got fed it was only about two at the time and fat as anything but she said it was fine coz she gave it lami prone or something like that it was a supplement! People are crazy!
 
PR. Whilst I see your point, what if the horse was too far gone and would not have recovered?

Or would have recovered but only to have lived a life of constant dietary supervision and perhaps daily pain control?

Good horse, bad horse, that is irrelevant, it is quality of life that counts at the end of the day. As is the fact that it is/was the owners decision for their own horse (after obviously taking the professional advice of the Vet and Farrier) and although sad, really is not the concern of anyone else.

Is it not better to have a horse humanely pts, therefore out of pain, than to put it through painful and not guaranteed successful treatment and then shoot the poor unfortunate beast when it can no longer stand on all four feet or even get up?

Personally, I would pts as well if the prognosis was not hopeful or it meant having to bute it up enough to mask the pain so it could get through each day. I couldn't live with seeing a horse hobbling about, or crouching, hopping from one leg to the other in a desperate attempt to relieve the pain.
 
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Pale Rider said:
Someone I know has just had their horse PTS by the vet. Why, laminitis. She was warned about it, because she overfed sugar filled crap feed.
Now, she has had a vet in who knows nothing about barefoot recovery, and between the vet and the farrier they have made things worse.
The horse is now dead, so much wailing, and saying how nothing could be done.
Well it could, between them they've killed a good horse.
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Dear me. What a tirade.
 
Trouble is (barring vet and farrier, they between them should know better) as an owner you can only do what you know at the time. No doubt in 10 years she'll have learnt more and will kick herself that this happened. I know I have done over problems I've had in the past - not one that ended in pts I hasten to add.
 
Stencilface said:
Trouble is (barring vet and farrier, they between them should know better) as an owner you can only do what you know at the time. No doubt in 10 years she'll have learnt more and will kick herself that this happened. I know I have done over problems I've had in the past - not one that ended in pts I hasten to add.
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I agree with this. I certainly hope she's learned a lesson about feeding sugar to laminitics, though, or this will undoubtedly happen again :(.
 
I notice quite often that others are quick to point a finger of accusation but rarely been in the situation themselves and often only have what they THINK happened as 'evidence'. And the only advice they have is what they read in horse and pony magazine.
She bought in a vet and a farier, who are both - I suspect - far more qualified than you.

I once met a little pony who was laminitic. It lived in a small stable sized pen and spent it's days in this pen (in the corner of the field) watching it's friends on the lovely grass. Whilst it nibbled it's soaked hay and screamed for company. It could not ever touch a blae of grass again, it's owner said, so that was it's life. I breathed a sigh of relief when it died of old age.

I have owned a few laminitics over the years, and currently own one and wouldn't hesitate to PTS if it came to the point of him having no quality of life. I'd give him a big sugary feed first though....
 
Mrs B said:
Sanctimonious 'I know better' post from you, PR.

And none of your business.
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Well said!

Great to know you have an 'all seeing eye' OP and have the knowledge to categorically state that a horse would have survived had things been done differently. Why we should all be bowing down at your feet :rolleyes:
 
Goldenstar said:
Some people will never learn that to fat is just as bad as too thin
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Actually I agree with GS, some people genuinely prefer their horses on the fatter side of healthy - including a couple of good friends of mine. Sometimes, no matter how many times they are told that it is unhealthy, they won't listen.
 
Enfys said:
Gosh! How lovely it must be to be so perfect :rolleyes:

I do hope you hop down from your exalted position to help educate those around you now and again.
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No I never bother myself I simply watch the two fat unexercised ponies in the field near my home slowly killing them selves it's owners fault horses get too fat.
laminitis in over fat horses is mostly preventable there is no excuse for not controlling your horses wieght.
Every one gets very hot and bothered by a thin horse but fat one is being neglected just as much IMO.
It's hard to look after a real fatty I have got over 100 kilos off one of the horses here and it was a hard task but he's so much better for it he had complicated skin problems that needed steriods sprayed on them he had had constant issues with his sheath , swollen joints all have gone with the diet.
We all like to feed horses and it's hard to deal with a real fatty I was shocked by how little this hard working horse needs to eat and felt awful giving him such short rations but it's my job to care for him still think I've got 30kilos to go though which will get him to 600 kilos .
 
Mrs B said:
And none of your business.
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Just picked this out not to be personal but because it seems to be common thinking ie. we don't know the whole story and it's up to the owner and no one elses business... this is interesting, one could say horses left to starve in a home is also the no one elses business if this is to be adhered to.
Over feeding is every bit as unfair to the horse as under feeding and actually the long term effects from being fat are far worse than being too skinny!
These are general comments btw. I feel I have to qualify everything I write.

I can understand PR's frustration and really the info about laminitis is out there, mind you, even the L.Trust are still not recommending soaked hay but say restrict hay and feed those bagged feeds that many of us have found to be totally unsuitable. :(

At least the horse is no longer suffering. x
 
I am with OP.

I had a horse who got lami - and actually I know that I let him get to fat when he retired and I had a bit of an Ostrich attitude to it and was suprised when it happend.

We all make mistakes, the trick is to learn from them and do better next time.
 
Goldenstar said:
No I never bother myself I simply watch the two fat unexercised ponies in the field near my home slowly killing them selves it's owners fault horses get too fat. I am taking this as a sarcastic remark
laminitis in over fat horses is mostly preventable there is no excuse for not controlling your horses wieght.No, but some people just need pointing in the right direction, tactfully, and even sometimes then bucket love takes over common sense
Every one gets very hot and bothered by a thin horse but fat one is being neglected just as much IMO. Tell that to the showing bods, they know what they are doing
It's hard to look after a real fatty Isn't it? :) I have about 20 wannabe fattiesI have got over 100 kilos off one of the horses here and it was a hard task but he's so much better for it he had complicated skin problems that needed steriods sprayed on them he had had constant issues with his sheath , swollen joints all have gone with the diet.
We all like to feed horses I don't, unless they are breeding stock they get hay and grass that's itand it's hard to deal with a real fatty I was shocked by how little this hard working horse needs to eat and felt awful giving him such short rations but it's my job to care for him still think I've got 30kilos to go though which will get him to 600 kilos .
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....
 
amandap said:
I can understand PR's frustration and really the info about laminitis is out there, mind you, even the L.Trust are still not recommending soaked hay .
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Whilst I agree with the previous statements regarding different perceptions of skinny and obese horses on here - e.g. some of the reactions to posters mentioning a horse being overweight vs a skinny horse etc, I would prefer the LT recommended the feeding of straw as a filler - it is a very undervalued forage for overweight horses and is more consistent in [low] quality than soaked hay.

Not that long ago on here I got into this argument with a poster who claimed they would prefer a horse to condition score 5 than 2. I was genuinely shocked that such an attitude could exist in this day and age.

Goldenstar said:
Some people will never learn that to fat is just as bad as too thin
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Again, whilst the OP's post might be sanctimonious and unpleasant reading, Goldenstar is actually fair enough in this observation, imo.
 
As we rush to judgment all round, I am reminded not only of my imperfections and shortcomings as a horse-owner, but also this: anyone who has ever had a horse or pony prone to getting somewhat rotund knows how difficult it can be to manage their weight. It's often a very fine balancing act, and we do sometimes get it wrong.

Many of us battle to control our OWN weight, never mind our horses. Puts it into perspective, maybe. Still, very sad for all involved in the loss of a horse who was probably very well loved by an owner who sought the help of vet, farrier etc - ie not a sign of one who didn't care, that's for sure.
 
Having the real fatty here has made really have to think about this you have restrict food until they start to lose its no good judging what they are getting agaist your other horses they have have to start losing you have got to get them moving ours was ghastly to hack out lazy and heavy the rider was puce with the effort at first would not go in the school ( think very lazy riding school pony but 16.2) it took two people to lunge him.
I have completely changed what I feed now no more mixes just molasses free chop oats and micronised linseed supplements as needed low energy haylage and normal haylage for the TB who needs a bit more food they all look fab so its not only my fatty who has benefited from my diet journey.
You have to invest time in getting a horse slim it really does take effort on your part to keep them happy and get their wieght down.
 
JFTD said:
I would prefer the LT recommended the feeding of straw as a filler - it is a very undervalued forage for overweight horses and is more consistent in [low] quality than soaked hay.

Not that long ago on here I got into this argument with a poster who claimed they would prefer a horse to condition score 5 than 2. I was genuinely shocked that such an attitude could exist in this day and age.
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I've no intention of getting into an argument and definitely think skinny is far less of a problem for the horse.
Hay isn't just a filler though, it should be the main feed and only any required minerals, vitamins and drugs needed on top. I have been told by a feed expert that straw can be high in sugars just as hay can. Mixing soaked hay and straw is probably a good way to go for very over weight horses with laminits.
People get so hung up on bucket feeds and tbh most horses don't need them.
 
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Ancient Hacker said:
As we rush to judgment all round, I am reminded not only of my imperfections and shortcomings as a horse-owner, but also this: anyone who has ever had a horse or pony prone to getting somewhat rotund knows how difficult it can be to manage their weight. It's often a very fine balancing act, and we do sometimes get it wrong.

Many of us battle to control our OWN weight, never mind our horses. Puts it into perspective, maybe. Still, very sad for all involved in the loss of a horse who was probably very well loved by an owner who sought the help of vet, farrier etc - ie not a sign of one who didn't care, that's for sure.
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Nicely put.
 
Weight for our horses is as sensitive an issue as it is for us women...
Too fat, too thin, good doer, bad doer.
I have had many horses and ponies and weight is mainly hereditry.
I have yet to meet though an obese animal that has had at least 6 months resricted feeding and grazing.
There are people out there who would give an obese animal a high sugared meal 3 times a day. Cus they need their tea/ dinner.... Didnt you know.
 
Although I understand why you're frustrated as you think this could of been prevented but don't you think that the poor ponies owner is upset and probably realises that it could of been prevented earlier on?
Also if it frustrated you so much was there nothing you could of said or done before it got to this stage instead of sitting back pointing the blame?
 
amandap said:
Just picked this out not to be personal but because it seems to be common thinking ie. we don't know the whole story and it's up to the owner and no one elses business... this is interesting, one could say horses left to starve in a home is also the no one elses business if this is to be adhered to.
Over feeding is every bit as unfair to the horse as under feeding and actually the long term effects from being fat are far worse than being too skinny!
These are general comments btw. I feel I have to qualify everything I write.

I can understand PR's frustration and really the info about laminitis is out there, mind you, even the L.Trust are still not recommending soaked hay but say restrict hay and feed those bagged feeds that many of us have found to be totally unsuitable. :(

At least the horse is no longer suffering. x
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Absolutely agree with this.
I too know someone who lost 2 horse to laminitis. I feel to lose one horse is bad luck, but to lose 2 smacks of bad management. The info is out there for all to read.
But, just as a thought, could there have been an underlying cause - say Cushings?
 
Goldenstar said:
It's owners fault horses get too fat.
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This exactly.
I don't care how you paint it, it's bad management if you horse gets far too fat. I know, because I let mine get fat!! As of January she was officially a healthy weight and that's where she is staying. Weight gain is alright a few pounds over the 'normal' for that type but it gets to a point where if you see your horse is getting a bit too tubby, and then DON'T do anything about it....then it's entirely down to you as an owner.
It's hard to keep a good doer slim in Summer, which I know, but it can be done. That I also know! And hats off to other owners who flippin' bother to manage the weight of their horses.
 
amandap said:
I've no intention of getting into an argument and definitely think skinny is far less of a problem for the horse.
Hay isn't just a filler though, it should be the main feed and only any required minerals, vitamins and drugs needed on top. I have been told by a feed expert that straw can be high in sugars just as hay can. Mixing soaked hay and straw is probably a good way to go for very over weight horses with laminits.
People get so hung up on bucket feeds and tbh most horses don't need them.
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Actually, I meant straw either cut with hay or as a solo forage depending on the condition score of the horse - by "filler" I didn't mean to fill the gaps between bucket feeds (which are completely unnecessary in many cases, certainly for overweight animals), I meant as forage. I'm not sure what that feed expert was smoking, or what sort of straw they were thinking of! Even the vet college recommend straw these days... Personally I'd never use soaked hay as soaking is a very inefficient means of removing sugars - though that is somewhat irrelevant, my point, in mentioning it is that I can understand why the LT don't recommend feeding soaked hay.

What the LT should make clearer is that their approval logo on brands of chaff etc are not an indication that those feeds should be fed to laminitics, but that those laminitics who need short feed (e.g. for medication) can be given small quantities of those approved feeds.
 
Enfys to reply to your kind comments on my post I was not being sarcastic I don't bother to approach the owner of the two horses I mentain it would be no good they have already been asked to leave a very nice local DIY yard as they would not take the YO advice and control the ponies wieght.
AS for showing don't even what to get started on that !
We are In agreement that it's hard to manage fatties but you need to invest time in it.
And I know when the ponies I am referring to finally go off there feet there will be a lot of weeping and wailing and will I feel sorry for the owner no but I will be so sad for the ponies yes.
 
JFTD said:
Actually, I meant straw either cut with hay or as a solo forage depending on the condition score of the horse - by "filler" I didn't mean to fill the gaps between bucket feeds (which are completely unnecessary in many cases, certainly for overweight animals), I meant as forage.
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Ah, misunderstood you there. I agree.

The importance of bucket feeds to many is a bit of a bug bear to me. Horses get most if not all their feed requirements from forages. If we put the effort into sorting out good forage and ways to eek out the correct amounts it would be effort better spent imo.
 
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