YO duty of care. How far are you expected to go?

[Enfys]

How far does 'duty of care' extend?

Yes, daily care as per agreement.
Yes, notifying owner of (serious, not everyday minor) injuries, ailments etc and agreeing on a course of action.
Yes, to booking farrier and vet for regular care and vaccinations ... (I book the visits, I notify owners, and they say yes, or no)

... but, what if owner insists on booking the farrier themselves, and will not allow you to book him for a horse that desperately needs it (navicular, needs fronts and pads), she has missed 2 changes now, despite me asking and reminding frequently and now finally threatening.

If I get a farrier in then I can be held responsible for anything that goes wrong (and the farrier has previously advised pts) plus, sorry, I am not paying out almost $200 either. Owner will not reimburse me, and is the type to lay any blame at my door.

The horse needs to be on a restricted diet, her buddy needs to be fed up
I can't separate them because they will go through fences to be together (tried that, cost me hundreds to get fence fixed)

Head. Wall. Bang.

Time to send them on their way I think

 

[skint1]

The owner is lucky to have such a caring YO, think of the overall picture and how it currently affects you, and I agree, send them on their way, or at least say if you don't do xxx by xxx then I am afraid I shall give you notice

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Well, I am not sure about your legal requirements, but owner sounds like a pain, lay it out ....she leaves or she stays, but the horses need to be looked after from a welfare viewpoint. In your opinion owner is not looking after them, you tell her how you want them managed if she does not agree, she has to leave.
If farrier recommended PTS[!] I would get a welfare vet involved. No animal should be left to suffer. Do something now.

 

[Spring Feather]

I had one lot like that. All the horses here are on a farrier schedule but they didn't want to be, saying they wanted to use their previous farrier instead. It wasn't that, it's just they didn't want to pay for such frequent farrier visits. Their horses feet were an embarrassment to us as I am particularly picky about having tidy feet around the place. So after trying to insist on them keeping their horses feet up to date on trimming, and not succeeding, I evicted them!

 

[Casey76]

Er absolutely not for the YO booking farrier/vet for me without prior agreement.

I use a different farrier than everyone else on the yard, and I wouldn't want to be kept to a "yard" schedule.

A note gets put up on the notice board if vet or farrier is coming, and if anyone wants to be added to the list, but I think it is a step too far to book them specifically for someone else.

 

[skint1]

I think that's fair enough, if you're the YO, or YM, it's your right to impose whatever rules you want. If they've been made clear at the outset, the livery should really comply or leave. As it happens I think sensible rules or guidance around welfare are always good ones and if I had my own yard I would also have rules about horses being seen to at least daily when they're out and rules around turn out'/bring in time when they're in at night during winter. They wouldn't be draconian, and I would recognise that people have to work and stuff and want a bit of a longer lay at weekends but I wouldn't want some of the nonsense I see going on around me with stabled horses.


eta- that said I have always booked and managed my own vets, farriers. other horse professionals so am not sure how I would feel about someone else choosing and booking one for me, if the professionals were good I would probably not mind.

 

[smellsofhorse]

What type of livery are they on?
Booking farrier and vets is usually owners job anyway.

But if her horse are suffering you need to get tough, either feed horse extra and get the farrier to other then charge owner or give her instruction on changes that need to be made and farrier treatment etc and a time scale, if not completed give notice.

You could contact whw for advice on where you stand legally.

 

[pixie]

I would never assume to make appointments for any of my livery horses. They are free to use whoever they want (as long as they are qualified) and book them for however often suits their horse.
If my farrier is coming up, then I will text my owners to see if their horses need doing while he is up, but I would never make assumptions. My farrier comes at an interval to suit my pony, it may not suit others.

If you are concerned about the animals, then perhaps while the farrier/vet is there they might look over the animal and advise you, but I wouldn't ask them to do any work.

If there is a welfare issue that needs addressing, then you need to write down your expectations, what needs to change and by when. Give it to her in person and explain all of your concerns. If it is not addressed within a certain time limit then its time for her to leave.

 

[Spring Feather]

What type of livery are they on?
Booking farrier and vets is usually owners job anyway.

It's different over here. Livery is usually full care livery and owners often aren't anywhere near as involved in their horses as owners in the UK are. On my farm, it's not unusual to only see owners once every few weeks/months, it is highly unusual to see owners every day.

Most YOs here book farriers and vets and owners either aren't involved in that at all, or they will book their own farriers and then they may be asked by YO to attend the visit, or the YO may still handle the horse for that farrier. Some barns only use certain farriers; some (like mine) are open to having any farrier of your choice visit, however on my farm if people use a different farrier then the owners must attend for that farrier. Otherwise I handle all the horses here for the usual farm farrier.

 

[Tern]

At the yard that I used to keep my cob - he was on grass livery. They had a diary of horses needing to be shod and called the farrier out - gave him the list of horses and those horses were shod, the same happened with the remedial farrier. Same happened with vet, there would be a number of vaccinations needed that day so they kept a diary of who needed vaccinations when (note: this is a yard with no less then 90 horses at one time) and if there was anything lame then the vet would check at same time. They order abut 10 boxes of wormers and horses are all wormed on the same day.

 

[Enfys]

AS SF says, things are different here.
DIY as such doesn't really exist.
Most owners are accustomed to being spoon fed as it were, many barns do all the bookings and owners just get billed, that is how it happens.
Some owners I don't see for weeks, or months on end, their horses are pets, or, in one or two cases merely status symbols.

I am like SF.
My Boarders are on Full Pasture Board, which means I feed them and do all the daily checks, blankets etc, basically grass livery really.
Plus, I grain feed (owner provides grain) I medicate, I treat and dress wounds etc, etc
My own farrier comes regularly, he is an excellent farrier AND certified (anyone can set themselves up here, no need for qualifications, you really do have to sort the wheat from the chaff) Some owners turn up and some don't. It makes no difference to me.
If people use my farrier then I inform owners but horses are on a schedule and mostly everyone is happy.

I have no problem with other farriers/vets/trainers etc coming here, at all, why should I?
But booking them and being there is entirely up to the owners, all that is agreed between us.

I hate moving people on, I am just treading water here, these owners have just bought a property with an acre or two so the horses will be moving soon anyway, I hope - god help them.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm a YO but unlike OP's situation in that I only offer DIY livery.

This is why!!

Its strictly DIY here, and there's only room for one livery, and she's fantastic - the best livery we've ever had.

But think OP's last sentence sums up what I'd do in that situation, send 'em up the road. You don't need this hassle.

 

[Goldenstar]

You can't force an owner to call the farrier and a farrier should not shoe a horse without the owners consent .
If after you telling them you consider it urgently needs done and they have done nothing I would serve them notice and move them on .
There's enough good owners desperate for a yard with a responsible YOer you'll easily find new clients .

 

[EventingMum]

I don't do DIY livery, we use two farriers and they come on a regular basis. Only one of my liveries uses an alternative farrier and makes her own arrangements with him which is fine as she makes sure her horse is done regularly. The other liveries all slot in with the farriers regular visits and pay them direct. I wouldn't tolerate a livery like this in your shoes OP

 

[Marydoll]

I can understand a livery using the professionals of their choice, When i was on livery i used my own vet and farrier but i was always there to deal with them, im very fussy about who treats my horses and tbh my horse my choice. What youre describing is neglect and thats not ok, they either look after the horse appropriately, defer care to you, or leave its that simple

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

How far does 'duty of care' extend?

Yes, daily care as per agreement.
Yes, notifying owner of (serious, not everyday minor) injuries, ailments etc and agreeing on a course of action.
Yes, to booking farrier and vet for regular care and vaccinations ... (I book the visits, I notify owners, and they say yes, or no)

... but, what if owner insists on booking the farrier themselves, and will not allow you to book him for a horse that desperately needs it (navicular, needs fronts and pads), she has missed 2 changes now, despite me asking and reminding frequently and now finally threatening.

If I get a farrier in then I can be held responsible for anything that goes wrong (and the farrier has previously advised pts) plus, sorry, I am not paying out almost $200 either. Owner will not reimburse me, and is the type to lay any blame at my door.

The horse needs to be on a restricted diet, her buddy needs to be fed up
I can't separate them because they will go through fences to be together (tried that, cost me hundreds to get fence fixed)

Head. Wall. Bang.

Time to send them on their way I think

personally on my yard everyone books their own farriers and vets as they all have different ones. I don't book anything for them as they are employed and need to book vets and farriers when their work allows them time off.

Tough one here ............... I know you said missed two shoeings, but are they still hanging on?? or are they coming loose?

Why will she not book the farrier? is it financial cost? what state are the feet in???

If its not good to any above I would contact welfare get them on your side or look into the legal side of things.

If its financial then I would be worried to whether she could pay the rent next time or if its not then the welfare of the horse comes first

 

[Enfys]

personally on my yard everyone books their own farriers and vets as they all have different ones. I don't book anything for them as they are employed and need to book vets and farriers when their work allows them time off.

Tough one here ............... I know you said missed two shoeings, but are they still hanging on?? or are they coming loose?

Why will she not book the farrier? is it financial cost? what state are the feet in???

If its not good to any above I would contact welfare get them on your side or look into the legal side of things.

If its financial then I would be worried to whether she could pay the rent next time or if its not then the welfare of the horse comes first

The mare has navicular, she needs her remedial shoeing (gel pads etc) to stay even vaguely comfortable. The Farrier has advised, even told her in no uncertain terms, that the horse will not improve, ever, and 6 weekly re-fits (whatever) are vital for the horse to stay comfortable. Owner won't book in advance, and doesn't seem to compute that the horse is IN pain. I am the one that has to see this horse with long feet hobbling about every day. I manage her as best I can, but without authority to book the Farrier I can do nothing more than remind Owner that feet are due, then nag, and nag until something is done (and believe me I nag and bitch about it, I even offer to make the appointment and deal with the farrier, deaf ears) At least I have persuaded her that it would be cruel to put the mare in foal. I think.

Rent, pah, don't get me started on that! Always something more important, (currently presents for grandbabies FGS :/ ) she knows I can't/won't kick the horses out, that I won't stop feeding them, so I am always the last on the list to be paid.

Welfare, much the same as the UK, things have to be really bad here, and the horse is being cared for.

 

[Red-1]

The mare has navicular, she needs her remedial shoeing (gel pads etc) to stay even vaguely comfortable. The Farrier has advised, even told her in no uncertain terms, that the horse will not improve, ever, and 6 weekly re-fits (whatever) are vital for the horse to stay comfortable. Owner won't book in advance, and doesn't seem to compute that the horse is IN pain. I am the one that has to see this horse with long feet hobbling about every day. I manage her as best I can, but without authority to book the Farrier I can do nothing more than remind Owner that feet are due, then nag, and nag until something is done (and believe me I nag and bitch about it, I even offer to make the appointment and deal with the farrier, deaf ears) At least I have persuaded her that it would be cruel to put the mare in foal. I think.

Rent, pah, don't get me started on that! Always something more important, (currently presents for grandbabies FGS :/ ) she knows I can't/won't kick the horses out, that I won't stop feeding them, so I am always the last on the list to be paid.

Welfare, much the same as the UK, things have to be really bad here, and the horse is being cared for.

Well she is not being cared for to YOUR ethical standards, and that would be enough for me to ask to move on.The money would just confirm that my decision was correct. I would even be prepared to lose the outstanding balance not to have this situation on my yard.

You sound very caring, but I think you need to be caring to yourself, and if you cannot change what is happening you need to make it happen not where it will be in your face.

You never know, if you explain your position with an open heart she may even think about more about what she is doing.

 

[pixie]

A welfare issue and money issue?! Give her notice now.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Well she is not being cared for to YOUR ethical standards, and that would be enough for me to ask to move on.

I agree with this fully. It's your yard, you should not have to feel uncomfortable with the state of a horse. Your welfare standards and ethics as a YO are really important. They define your yard and your reputation.

Not to mention that it is you who has to deal with the poor mare and managing a horse in pain is tiring when you know you are doing all you can for it. I can't imagine having a lame horse I could not sort out due to the owners unwillingness.

If it's as bad as the farrier says, I would offer her the option to PTS at the yard or move on. She may get a farrier in now, if you put your foot down, but it won't last. The payment issue will continue and the mare won't get any sounder with this sort of attitude from the owner.

 

[martlin]

I've given an ultimatum before - either have the horse treated or go elsewhere - they went elsewhere, which is a shame for the horse, but I've long given up the idea of saving them all.
Give her notice.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I think move her on Here, we can use any farrier or vet we want if on DIY. I was discouraged from using my own people on one yard, but not prevented. It's obviously very different over your way. People here tend to be up daily from what I've seen on the yards I've been at.

 

[Tnavas]

The yard where I kept my horses for many years organised everything, whether you liked it or not.

Head girl went round ALL horses and ponies and checked shoes. It was good though as sometimes you only needed fronts done, saved money. We were then billed. This was the understanding made when you first moved in.

I was always more than happy with that, until there was a fallout with the excellent farrier who had come in for many years. I declined to use the new farrier and was told I would have to take horse to his forge which I did once! It was a whole day riding there and back so decided to give new farrier a chance.

The YO Made the rules to make everyone's life easier and to ensure that the horses welfare was looked after. It meant she knew exactly who would be on the yard and when. Same applied for the vet. We used the yard vet, which cut down our vets bill considerably as there was generally another horse that needed looking at and so travel was halved. Vet bills went directly to us, farrier bill added to livery bill. Think a yard owner has every right to set rules that s/he wants.

 

[pixie]

Have you managed to come any closer to resolving this matter?