YO/Livery clients' opinion on........

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Ginge Crosby

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making a profit on hay and shavings sold on to livery clients?

Ok, may be a bit of a long one....
Found out that when my livery yard buys in haylage/hay/shavings, they not only add cost on for haulage/diesel/paying staff to collect ect (expected and accepted), but they also add on enough money per bale so that they make a profit off of it.

For example, a small bale of hay which would cost £3.00 if i were to buy it from the farmer will cost more than £6.00 when i buy it through the yard owners. I've never experienced this before as a livery client, as I've always been allowed to source my own hay and bedding. But at this yard its written into the contract that we are only allowed to get hay and bedding from them. It basically came to light because I've been looking around for cheaper alternatives and suggesting them, but i've now realised that because I know how much the original cost per bale is they are reluctant to swap because i'll know how much more they're marking it up by.

So i was wondering how commonplace it is to mark up bales for profit? I understand covering their costs for transport etc, but..... not so much the profit when i already pay livery fees. I think i'd understand it if they were producing their own haylage and selling it to us, but not when they're just buying it in.

I always think, 'if I was running a livery yard i'd do suchandsuch' so i'd like to know how this sits with people from both sides of the fence really :)
 
Well... my YO buys our hay and haylage in as big bales. I don't know how much the big bales cost. I just know that I am billed for monthly hay and/or haylage (different prices depending on whether your horse is in at night or day as she assumes night will use more). I presume that she adds on a bit to make a profit as she has to make money, livery yard isn't a charity. I don't mind paying a bit extra because having my YO supply forage means I don't have to find a supplier myself and then go out of my way to fetch it. Overall even if my YO does mark it up a bit, I think it would still cost me less than if I had to buy in small bale stuff myself then factor in fuel to fetch it.

I don't think charging double the price is on though! I know that the price I pay goes up and down when the quality of the forage changes, as the price her supplier(s) changes so to some extent that is passed on to us.
 
That is a bug mark up ,but would expect them to mark it up a bit its pretty normal to be honest, theres not much margin for profit with livery feeds so theyve got to do it elsewhere.
 
At one yard i was at they did that, hence wasnt there long esp as you couldnt buy from anywhere else. People used to take in bags of shavings when they knew owner wasnt around and then buy just a bag from him each week.
 
ye i agree with Mrs M a small mark up yes expected and accepted. here is a wee case study for a giggle!

was at a yard with 9 livieries and owner had 4 of her own horses. we all paid £10 a week for one large haylage net a night so £90 from all the the livieries. The yard used 2 big bales of haylage a week including feeding owners horses! so £30 profit and owners horses all fed! Good if you can get it eh!
 
I have my own forage and I don't do DIY livery, so not really applicable, but:
If I was to buy in hay and sell it on to my liveries, I would want to make a profit on it, because it would be me who has to have the money up front in the first place:)
If there is no profit in it, you might as well let the liveries fend for themselves.
 
martlin said:
I have my own forage and I don't do DIY livery, so not really applicable, but:
If I was to buy in hay and sell it on to my liveries, I would want to make a profit on it, because it would be me who has to have the money up front in the first place:)
If there is no profit in it, you might as well let the liveries fend for themselves.
Click to expand...

If you were charging me double I would be happy to source it myself :D

I know people have to make a living but some people are rip-off merchants :mad:
 
martlin said:
If I was to buy in hay and sell it on to my liveries, I would want to make a profit on it, because it would be me who has to have the money up front in the first place:)
If there is no profit in it, you might as well let the liveries fend for themselves.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree with this. The YO has to source the hay, pay up front for it, collect it, store it, make allowance for wastage in storage... All of this justifies a profit imho!
 
When I was a livery in Warks it was in my contract to buy bedding and forage from YO. YO's uncle is a farmer therefore we bought the hay he made. Apparently it wasnt very cheap but it is very convenient to have it all on the yard already.

Now im in Aberdeenshire I can use the YO's hay but its sooo dusty, so me and my friend source our own haylage which is lush quality! I buy my own bedding too. Works out cheaper than what I was paying down south but I can understand why YOs want to make a profit from their bedding/forage. There is a waiting list at that yard so plenty of people are willing to pay extra.
 
Just got my first invoice in from new yard where YO buys everything in no problem with this as it saves my fuel and dont need to worry about running out, no probs with paying over the odds for my stuff becuse of this however I am getting charged VAT on shavings/hay/wormer that I know was overpriced in the first place wasn't best pleased, will be doing the sneaky buy half and half too lol
 
I don't begrudge the YO making money on the hay, haylege and straw he provides after all he's had to buy the baling equipment, spend hours in the fields bailing the stuff and then use a large CAT to deliver it once a month (or whenever needed) However now he's got the equipment and still using his own land to make it i find it a bit of a cheek when he put his prices up (doubled overnight) when your not allowed to source elsewhere. The YO knows he has you over a barrel.
I also get annoyed when the YO makes you worm to their schedule and you have to buy the wormer off them. There are over 80 horses on my yard an i know he gets a discount for bulk buying. He charges £17 for Equest but he buys it in at £9 a tube, i also know he doesn't pay for it until the month after so no outlay is required...I'm not really sure how he can justify making £7 a tube per wormer!!!
Anyway i digress...Yes to making a profit but sometimes people are just greedy and know they can get away with it.
 
YO's know when you sign the contract stating you will use thier hay, shavings and anything else that they can pretty much charge what ever. I would rather pay X amount for livery and be able to source my own products. I'd rather have the hassle of collecting it all than being ripped off. Having horses is expensive enough with paying over the odds!
 
I recently left a yard where you had to buy EVERYTHING including supplements from the YO ! - now i did not mind paying £4.00 for a square bale of hay - up till last year - why because the hay was wonderful, and the bales were so big you struggled to move them. Just before i left the hay was still wonderful BUT it needed 2 bales to make up the one from the previous year - by winter i would have been bankrupt as i would have had to use 3 bales a day= £12 per day on hay ! ouch.....

The yard also always put prices UP they never came down, the cheapest i can ever rember straw being was £2.50 - it is now £3.50 per small square bale, when VAT changed no prices went down, but when it went back up to 17.5% we had a price hike of 2.5%...... they must have thought we were all turnips !

I am now at a yard where you can buy the hay from them - i pay £20 per month per horse - i can have as much as i want - it is either fantastic hay or good hay, with the occasional "rough" bale - this gets moved within hours of being complained about and fed to the cows... the yo's buy the bedding you want, store it for you - and put it away, and just charge you what they pay for it ! - they sell you the wormers at the brought in price - why because they are happy to make the money from the livery and the livery services they provide, oh and the straw is free too yippee
 
YO here - what's SO wrong with making a profit ? - you lot go out to work and expect a fair days pay for a fair days work so do YO's. If the prices are too high for you then vote with your feet, but if you are content and happy with the facilities, service and care of your horse then don't begrudge us making a living ...we have bills to pay too !!
 
QR - I remember a yard where they grew their own hay (in a reportedly huge field at the back of the property that no one knew belonged to the farm) and got their shavings free, from a saw mill, and were charging clients as if they were "importing the stuff from America". They also had a rule where you weren't allowed to discuss your livery charges with anyone else...until someone got suspicious about it.

A few weeks later new look livery bills were sent out with everything itemised out on them and a reduction of several £££ ...
 
I am a YO & I realise I will not be popular for my comments.
We are YO's first & foremost as a business, like everyone else in business we need a profit. Basically that is how if we are lucky, we earn a wage. I am sick to the back teeth of hearing people on here (not my yard) whinging about YO's & how much it costs to keep a horse. If you can not afford to pay the cost dont have a horse. Simple!
On my yard I "PAY" NNDR (rates) at £10,800 pa My insurance is is £2,600. My staff get paid a decent rate (well above NMW)
When I buy in feed for liveries it is unloaded, stored & delivered to liveries stable/tack/feed room on the day they request. Best quality analysed haylage which is purchased for a whole year from same fields to avoid drastic changes to digestive system. All of this is stored, tractored to end of barns, then forklifted into large barn. Tractor + lifting implements £9,000.00 Forklift £6,000.00 H&S 6 monthly safety check £280.00 Calor Gas & Diesel. + staff training to operate & comply with H&S. Full Fire alarm system with both water & foam extinguishers at designated points £2500.00 + £275 yearly safety check & often replacing extinguisher due to horses left to chew them! Post & Rail paddocks that get broken, GP set of jumps that get poles smashed in 2 pieces. Oversized Indoor & Outdoor arenas that cost a small fortune. You begrudge me a profit on all of the above? Try looking at how much profit is made on all the horsey rugs & tack you go out & buy on a weekly basis & probably dont even need. Do you think Tesco or Asda make little profit on their products?
If you owned a Cafe, Restaurant or Pub would you allow people to bring in there own food & drink? 9 times out of 10 if you allowed most liveries to bring in there own supplies they will require extra storage, + lots will get such poor quality it can affect the health of horses in adjoining stables,which in turn causes further problems.
If you feel you are hard done by why dont you go & buy your own place that will cost from about £500,000 upwards & then tell us YO's how cheap it is.
BTW It is the government that insist to charge VAT on bedding & Wormers if you are registered you pay VAT on any profit. If not you still have to pay the VAT at purchase. Hay & feedstuff is zero rated.
Rant over & feel better now
 
Well said Freshman, but lets not also forget, Business Rates which are also charged on storage areas the more facilities the higher the rates, electricity and water bills again business rates not domestic. Our times on the phone just because liveries get paid to sit for talking for 8 hours on the phone, likewise our time ringing vets, blacksmiths, feed merchants etc to keep the yard running somewhere the business has to pay for that time and phone call. Oh then there is being on call 24/7 365 days a year.
 
Yep, plus all the late night checks, contacting owners when horse not quite right, often standing with Vet for hours as owner not answering calls. Owners phoning mid afternoon needing a muck out as they are not feeling well.
Why is it we are not supposed to earn a living from such a business? God knows we put enough effort in.
 
Personally i can see where the YO's are coming from, but ours does take the P**s a bit charging us double for a little bale of straw when my mare foaled. We went through 20 little bales at £4 a bale (she bought at £2).
She also buys our haylage at £28 and charges us £36...
x
 
Well with regards to the haylage it is normal business practice to add minimum 30% profit margin, then consider the storage area is rated at between £10 to £12.50 per metre per annum. Plus any bad bales or waste is also costed to the YO including removal. (ok if you have cows but an expensive excersise if not)
 
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