YO/Livery clients' opinion on........

Ah Freshman also forgot the lorry that is sat there 24/7 paid for, properly insured, taxed properly qualified drivers that are is ready god forbid we have to run a liveries horse to horspital if lucky at a reasonable daytime hour, or worse in the middle of the night.

The long trudge over a field to straighten a rug for the umpteenth time in a day because the owner will not get it fixed, bring a horse in for the farrier to replace one shoe so they can compete that weekend.

I for one would love yards to be regulated whether one horse for a friend, or 60 horses on a competition yard, that way all yards would be sigining from the same hymn sheet and the cheap yards, would no longer be able to charge what they charge as it wouldnt be going into their pockets, but to pay what proper law abiding business livery yards have to pay. If you take money to keep someones horse at your place, you legally have to register as a business, it is an income earnt from your property, I wonder how many yards actually do this and undercut the yards that are running correctly, professionaly, safely and legally. How many of you have yearly fire inspection visits, or even a fire extinguisher on your yard?
 
FRESHMAN said:
Yep, plus all the late night checks, contacting owners when horse not quite right, often standing with Vet for hours as owner not answering calls. Owners phoning mid afternoon needing a muck out as they are not feeling well.
Why is it we are not supposed to earn a living from such a business? God knows we put enough effort in.
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Why don't you just charge for those services instead of over-inflating other prices? Then people pay for what they get instead of subsidising others!

Why do YO think they are doing you a favour when you are paying £495 a month thats nearly £6000 a year for the privilige of being treated like an inconvenience!
 
Sussexbysea know one should ever be treated as an inconvenience and that is wrong. However if I started charging saying double time at night for emergency call out and panic rush to the vets at say £20 an hour, I would be looked at as making a profit out of someones misfortune and what a heartless yard owner. So you have to work out all your day to day costs, to make a living if lucky with a wage, but at the very least the yard is paying for itself as otherwise it is not a business and somethings we do through compassion as no one wants to see an ill horse, at the least being seen to make a profit through it, look at how much stick vets get on here also.
 
I never consider people to be an inconvenience, but I do consider them to be a client. I provide a service for a fee, after all I would be checking my own horses so whats another 25? However it is often abused. Not answering a phone when your horse is in trouble with ie; colic or cast is not really my duty to sort out. But of course we do sort it. Like I said previously all items that I pay out for in advance for the convenience of my clients must carry a reasonable profit margin. 30% is not a huge margin by any standards.
 
Scally - youve touched a sore point and I had a few glasses of wine - I am on part-livery - last weekend my horse got spasmodic colic - after vet had been I stayed another 4 hours at the yard to make sure he was OK. I live 20 miles away - my YO lives less than a mile away - she did not offer to do a late check. Not only that she first diagnosed his colic as a problem with his left hind (luckily I ignored her) . Last night she sent around a text saying we can no longer top up our horses hayif they need it (even though we have just had a £20 a month increase to cover price rises) I am leaving as soon as I can find a suitable yard. Another livery 2 liveries have already handed their notices in.
 
Sorry Scally, missed the in between post re transport etc. I also can not wait for the day that yards are licensed & regulated. This is the only route that will improve things for both client, YO & of course many staff jobs in the Equestrian Industry. When we are all singing from the same sheet & it is regulated the illegal yards will be finished. Then we will get a level playing field regarding charges versus services.
 
Sussexbythesea. This is exactly the reason why yards should be licensed & regulated. It would get rid of the people that do not take responsibility for the business they are in. However, is your yard a legit livery yard, paying NNDR, insurance etc. Do you have a contract?
 
Sussexbythesea I am so so sorry, as a responsible yard owner, that owners trust me with their horse, never ever would I leave an owner to it with their horse, I have had two this year one colic, where I did two hourly checks for three days including the night as owner could not get out of work (owners also have the choice of the spare room if they want to be on site), the second a broken leg and again two hourly checks for a week to make sure he was settled, didnt lay down, had enough hay as was cross tied. Never would I dream of charging one of my liveries for this it what I calculate into my yard running costs and part and parcel of having livestock. My liveries get one bill a month, never changes, unless a price increase yearly or extras they have requested, it includes everything including, feed and bedding so they never ever get a shock. I hope your horse is well on the way to recovery.

Freshman, level playing field was the word I was looking for, and it does need regulating, if not only for health and safety but realisation the horse industry is still 20 years out of touch with reality. No other business could get away with shoddy customer service, inflated bills, tax fraud etc etc and the good yard owners get penalised with the bad. However liveries can do a lot to help themselves. Check your yard is properly licensed as a business with your council, check insurance certificates, H&S Certificates, fire extinguishers in date a yard that goes to this length will offer you a professional service, otherwise you only have yourselves to blame for just benefiting someones pocket.
 
Scally. That is absolutely spot on & probably the reason I do get miffed reading complaints about YO's. If everyone just checked a few details before putting their horse on a livery yard everyone would benefit, especially the horse. Please everyone make sure your yard is legitimate otherwise you only have yourself to blame when things go wrong.
 
I do have contract - I don't know what NNDR insurance is but she has public liability insurance. On the surface of it the yard is run well but she is weird and unprofessional. She is a listed BD judge and trainer. She just thinks she knows more than she does and is only running the yard so that she can keep her own horse how she wants it which is out for 3 hours in the morning alone, then wrapped from head to toe in bandages and rugs even at 20 degrees. She even put a turnout rug on a woolly New Forest last week when it was forecast to be 20 degrees. On tuesday night I went to say hello to it and it still had its turn-out rug on was covered in sweat and had no water. I rang the owner and changed it to a waffle sweat rug with her permission (I think it should have no rug) and topped up its water. My last yard was apparently regulated (BHS approved) but I cant say they were much better but at least they were honest. I do not know of any other 'regulated' yards.
 
Sussexbythesea NNDR is non domestic business rates i.e. running a business which your council can tell you about.

When looking for a yard from past experience, the first time I always make an appointment so I get shown round the facilities, the second time I just pop in to ask a couple more questions and double check things they said were true, horses always having hay, turnout, clean yard, staff on yard etc etc. Attention to details is another big one, no cobwebs on any light fittings (a big source of a fire), fire exinguishers, first aid kits are in date and correct, check maintenance is being done, make notes of something that is broken (if anything) and see if it is fixed the second time I go, be prepared to pay a little more for a small yard than a large one as there overheads are probably a little more than a large yard but not always. Look at the hay they have in to feed, check feed bins have sufficient feed, question if you are not allowed to wonder around and talk to the liveries and ask there opinions. Also ask where their accident book is located I know very very few yards that can tell you and produce it, again it is a professionally run yard with attention to detail that can.

Good yards will never have anything to hide, including their pricing policy. Make a list of questions ask what happens if horse ill, emergencies in the night etc. It wont protect you against everything, but it should help you a lot.
 
A contract is a good start. It should state what they expect from you & what you can expect from the yard. It should also detail all prices which should only be changed with notice from the YO. ie; Sept most feed companies put up prices of feed & bedding etc so I must notify the livery of this change, they either accept or decline & move elsewhere. NNDR = National Non Domestic Rates. Or better known as Business Rates.ie; If you are running a business from premises the Council place a rateable Value on the property & charge approx .48p for each £ of rateable value. My Rateable Value (RV) is £22500.00 x .48p = £10,800 payable to the local council. Personally I do not believe Public Liability Insurance is enough if you are caring for someones horse, especially on more than a DIY basis. I choose to have full cover with Care Custody & Control Policy (far more expensive) My staff are covered to deal with clients horses which covers them if injured by a horse & covers owner if staff make a mistake or error of judgement. A BHS approved yard is not much security. Basically anyone who is prepared to pay the fee gets a plaque for the wall! Generally you need to have a feel for the yard on first visit, ask questions & stick with gut instinct. This is why Scally & myself feel that a properly regulated/licensed yard would help improve the overall status of livery yards for both parties.
 
Scally - I know you are being helpful but I've ridden for over 35 years had numerous horses on loan, share and my own for around 20 yrs on and off and know what a good yard is. It fulfills all the criteria you mention but the YO is a cow - this is something the council does not regulate.

I had lessons with this woman for a year before she set up her yard - the facilities are good the basic care is OK. I think I pay enough £115 a week for part-livery this is about the most expensive you will get for the services in this area. You cannot tell what a weirdo the YO turns out to be until you get there.
 
SBS
I am really not being sarcastic but surely if YO is such a twit she should have a lot of empty stables especially if her charges are quite high. On a personal note I do not like horses to be left unsupervised overnight. All hell can break out at anytime which is why my yard is staffed x 2 at all times. I would not entertain a yard without a person present.
 
As a livery, I appreciate my YO's are trying to make a living and are not running a charity!

So I expect them to make a profit out of me being at their yard, how they do that really doesn't matter, whether it be everything marked up or a basic higher livery fee and goods at cost, it all works out the same at the end of the day.

I think my YO's are very reasonable, I am at the best yard in my area facility wise and yet they are not the most expensive. Their goods (bales of sawdust, sacks of food etc) is usually on 20/30p more expensive than the nearet tack/feed shop, and it would cost me more than that to go get things in petrol, not to mention the time and effort to go and get it.
They grow their own haylage/hay/straw so are able to keep costs down on that front.

I think a lot of clients of livery yards dont consider the costs of having schools resurfaced, paddock fencing maintained etc, they just look at the cost of a bale of haylage and dont understand why it has a mark up.

I am free to buy my goods where I want, but find its much more economical to buy direct from my YO.

If I wasn't happy, I'd simply move. YO's have the right to charge what they want for goods or services, its their business and if well over the top in price, they usually find themselves with an empty yard, those reasonable and who provide a good consiencious service usually find themselves full like the yard I am at.
 
Didn't realise this would create such a response!

I don't begrudge YO's trying to make a profit where possible. Sometimes it feels a little bit greedy when a basic service is at hand for a fee which is higher than many local yards (without adding extra hay/bedding costs!). Late night checks, rug checks, organising vet/farrier visits and hourly checks when poorly sound like my idea of heaven, and a service which i would happily pay extra for.

"simply moving" is simply not an option, when i've been looking and come to find that all decent yards in a 30 mile radius have waiting lists. But then again, the phrase "out of the frying pan, into the fire" spring to mind.

I can afford my horse, even if its painful in the process..... its getting on for 4.45am and i've not long finished work, I'll be awake in about 2 and a half hours to go muck out (can anyone else hear those tiny violins ?? ;) ) . But all the long (and crappy) hours at work make having him all the worthwhile, and i wouldnt change things for the world :D (don't ask why i'm still online looking at HHO - its basically my way of de-stressing atm!)

The whole idea of starting this thread was so that I could find out if this sort of mark up was unusual, or that it is the norm and i've been extremely fortunate at all the other yards ive kept at over the years


(welcome to the real world - from the general response i'm guessing its more the latter!!)

thanks for your input, it's much appreciated :)
 
I can see both sides of this. I have kept horses on all kinds of yards, from renting a stable yard and being entirely self sufficient, to a DIY yard where I had to by everything in to where I am now..hay and straw are supplied in my livery bill. I can use them or not, it is up to me, or source alternatives myself.

The advantage of it being supplied is of course that I don't have to worry about sourcing it and storing it. On a previous yard where we all had to buy in, and an entire barn was given over to storage of fodder and bedding, with us all having individual areas - what a waste of space!

My only thought on having to buy direct on solely from the YO is that they have effectively set themselves up as a retail operation. I know that business rates should be paid on any area that relates directly to areas for the customers, but imagine that in some cases there may be barns and storage that are treated as agricultural for taxes.
 
Our yard does this, they make a profit on the haylage they make themselves and they butshaving in pallets, we are olny allowed to use their shavings, its cheaper than if we bought if from the mill ourselves but more then they pay for it.
 
I think it's perfectly reasonable to make a profit - they are, after all, a business.

How else do people expect them to make any money???????
 
I know this is getting into a conversation about my own woes and off-thread - sorry OP.

Freshman -I'd love to know where all these fantastic yards are because I just don't think they are there and the ones that are great no one ever leaves. I live right on the coast so there are very few yards without driving miles inland. I've found 20 miles after work in the pitch black pouring rain or ice is just too far especially in winter.

Is this evidence of her being a twit?
1) She still has 3 empty boxes after a year of being open (it only has 12 horse and 2 pony stables
2) 2 people have handed their notices in in the last month so there will be 5 empty boxes - 6 when I leave.

There are a couple of liveries with their heads stuck firmly up her backside and that also makes things very devisive on a yard that size. And she also makes comments on FB that you know relate to one of her clients disagreeing with her like "is upset - I try my best but I cant please everyone! :( " so she can get her little fwends to say oh people are sooo unreasonable. This is so unprofessional.

I agree with you I do not like that there is no one on site at night but its really hard to find something that fulfils everything you need at one yard - this is why I drive 20 miles because it seemed the care would be would be better for my horse. I was wrong.

I was working long hours and travelling away a lot so had to move from DIY to Part-livery and at my last yard I used to go up every night to ensure he was ok - no injuries, enough water, enough hay - I used to buy extra hay to give him - if I was away I would have to ask a friend to check. But at least I was only 5 minutes away. I wanted somewhere where if I couldn't get there I didn't have to worry. Sadly its not this place.

I pay my bills on time, I obey yard rules, my horse is easy to handle, I always discuss any problems with whatever YO I have and I am never rude. To be honest she hasn't done anything to me per se but I have so much evidence that she is dishonest so I do not trust her anymore and I cannot keep my horse with someone I do not trust esepcialy as I live so far away.
 
I used to have my mare on full livery, then moved to my own place and built my own stables, along with buying a few more horses. It actually doesn't save much money at all, if any. People don't realise how little proffit many YOs are making on livery. At one point we had a few DIYs, thinking it would help towards costs. It SO didn't. More fields got churned up, so needed more re-seeding and rolling etc (we pay a local farmer), muckheaps grew quicker and needed moving by the farmer, fences got broken, even brand new ones. New stables got holes kicked/chews. Something always needed repairing! We provided hay for everyone and bought shavings in, as there wasn't storage for everyone to do it. We put a bit of money on what we paid, but we had to lug the things around etc. In the snow, none of the DIYs managed/bothered to come, so we ended up doing theirs as well as ours. It was, generally, a nightmare! I'd never do DIY again. Perhaps full livery at a push, but never DIY. It actually ended up costing us money.

At the moment we buy in hay and straw ourselves. We haven't got storage for a full lorry load, so buy from a local man who buys from auctions etc. I know he adds a fair bit onto what we pay, but thats his job and his living! We don't have to chase around after it.

Sometimes I think everyone should have to run a yard once in their lives, they probably wouldn't complain about much afterwards.
 
Of course the YO should make a profit, they are a business. I sell supplements for a living & get sick of people trying to beat the price down, or saying "I've only used a bit out of it, can you change it because I've sold the horse" or whatever. FFS you don't go into Tesco & say "Can I return this chicken I've only eaten the legs off it" I too have a mortgage & bills to pay, that it why I run my small business, same for YO, I feel sorry for you with people moaning, not turning up & then complaining how much it all costs!!
 
I have no problem with a YO making a profit however adding an extortionate mark up and then insisting no other supplier can be used is rather unfair and I would be voting with my feet.
My horses are at home and I have to source my own foods - my friend with liveries locally typically charges about a pound a small bale over what I pay which is not unreasonable. They charge for wormers at the suppliers cost if bought singly - so the YO gets the difference which is fair enough.
Good YOs do work hard and I don't begrudge them making a profit where they can but not allowing feeds from outside is an unfair practice if they cannot/ will not supply reasonably.
 
Honey08 said:
In the snow, none of the DIYs managed/bothered to come, so we ended up doing theirs as well as ours. It was, generally, a nightmare!

Sometimes I think everyone should have to run a yard once in their lives, they probably wouldn't complain about much afterwards.
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We had a similar problem re-snow last winter - our yard is about 10mins drive along main road, then 10 min drive down a single track lane on the side of a welsh mountain. Myself and one other livery were driving as far as we could along the main road, then walking the rest of the way (ended up being an hour and a half round trip from yard to car, twice a day). We even had to sledge water in barrels, and feed bags there as the taps froze and we ran out of feed. Even the 4x4's were getting ditched along the lane as they couldnt cope. It was quite possibly the one the most hellish couple of weeks of my life. No offer of help/services from YM, besides pulling our car up the drive with a tractor when we got stuck.

This year i've already said her that if this happens this winter, she will be asked to do him for me (she lives on site and is paid by YO's to be a YM), and if i have to pay extra then fair enough, i wouldnt expect her to do it for free just as i wouldnt expect to do it for free for someone else.

I would love to run my own yard, and i probably would complain - about all the clients whingeing, and moaning, and being untidy, and rude, and.............. ;)
 
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The YO adds on a bit at our yard BUT we do not have to buy it from her. She used to pay £2/bale and sell it to us for £2.75/bale I think - I believe she now pays £2.50/bale and sells it on for £3/bale. She used to say we had to buy hay from her, but if we fed haylage we could source that ourselves. Last year she allowed people to buy their own hay, and this year she has had such a hard job getting hay, she has just bought her own. I feed haylage and have done for the last two years, although I do buy the odd bale of hay off her, and I don't mind paying a bit extra for convenience.

TBH we have had some unscrupulous liveries in the past, and she has lost bales, so I think the few pence she adds on, gets wiped out by people taking bales and not writing them in the book.

I don't mind paying a small mark up, but OP's does sound excessive
 
Ive just read all posts in this thread with intrest. There is always 2 sides to an arguement and they seem well represented.

I am neither a YO or a livery, I rent fields and some outbuildings off a farmer. This winter I think I would be happy paying inflated prices for hay and straw if the supply was guaranteed! as having trouble at the mo sourcing hay.

I think YO are entitled to charge what they like, however I do not agree with yards with say everthing has to be brought from them. I think the yard owner supplying forage and bedding should be seen like any other shop, with overheads and a living to make. If people want to shop elsewhere they can. YO do not have to supply storage, I used to store my hay in garage at home and transport daily to yard in old feed sacks. Not a realistic option for everyone.

I agree yards should be regulated and run properly and that if people cant afford to pay the fees then dont have horses.
 
Gosh! I NEVER make a profit on hay/wormers etc! They pay what I pay, if there is postage and delivery then it is all worked out so each person pays a fair portion including me!

I mention when I'm getting hay and how much, and if they want some, then let me know and payment to me before it comes...same with the wormers....but as you get discount from buying in bulk, they all ask me to get them as it saves a fiver a time!

And if I had a much bigger yard, I certainly wouldn't mind WHERE people got their hay from, if they can get it cheaper, good luck to them! BUt to buy off me would be fine as welll......and I guess one would have to add a little to support the costs...

I do it this way because I know what it was like years beofre, paying over-inflated prices and having to buy it from the yard when I could get much cheaper...

HOWEVER - If I were runing the place as a full-blown business that I needed to earn a decent living off, then certainly I would expect to be making some sort of profit.....
 
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