You consider horses manners to be....???

fattylumpkin said:
Agree with many people here :)

But the horse also expects a bit of the same courtesy as part of a working relationship, so it's give and take. I wish there was more emphasis put on teaching people how to show politeness to their horse!
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so true!

my new Welsh mare is a perfect lady in every way. so quiet and sweet, loving etc. she grooms back very gently, stops as soon as you stop. never gets in my space etc leads next to my mobility scooter (don't even need to hold the rope)


yet she will play with things outside the stable, she will tip over a large wheelie bin to get to the hay inside. play with head collars or boots left in her reach. I left a lunge whip outside her stable the other day, came down to find she had pulled it inside :) and i like that she does, as when I first got her she didn't. I think of it as allowing their character to grow without losing manners
 
Illusion100 said:
Completely agree, ground manners relate to ridden manners. This what gets me. People complain their horse naps/bucks etc when ridden and don't relate it to the facts like it is bargey on the ground! Baffling eh?!
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Totally baffling that some people don't get the horse you ride is the same one as you have in the stable .
 
"You consider horses manners to be....???"

Another word we use that is meaningless really, not helpful and adds confusion. ;)
 
One pet hate - not standing still when you mount/dismount.

My boy was allowed to get away with this before I bought him and it's taken 6 months to drill it into him that he HAS to stand still. He's just about cracked it *touches wood*
 
ihatework said:
I like mine to be polite and safe to be around yet to retain their own character/personality. I can't be doing will drilling them for any minor mishap.
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This ^^ They are all polite but each have a personality and will be cheeky. I couldn't stand the thought of them not having their personalities and to be rigid and too strict with them.
 
amandap said:
"You consider horses manners to be....???"

Another word we use that is meaningless really, not helpful and adds confusion. ;)
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Yes, agreed.
My horse is a large non-human animal. He has no concept of manners, and if I start to label his behaviour as "good manners" or "bad manners", I start to have expectations that he somehow *knows* what's acceptable and what's not.

Instead, I just look at it as behaviour. I have trained him to do certain things and to respond to certain requests and cues. He's trained to do all the usual things - follow a lead, maintain a comfortable distance from my shoulder, stop when I stop, trot up for vettings, back up and move shoulders and quarters sideways when asked, drop head when asked, lift and offer hooves when requested, stand quietly. He also has cues for "eat now" and "stop eating now" for grazing in-hand. He puts his own nose into headcollars and bridles, because that's what he's been trained to do.

If he doesn't do any of these things, I usually ask myself why he's responding on this occasion when he's usually dependable, and then I work out what I can do to make it easier for him to respond and how I can make sure, if the same situation arises in the future, that he's able to deal with it. It's up to me to train him well. It's not up to him to work out human concepts like "acceptable manners".

I'm glad to say he's an absolute delight to be around, and especially since he wasn't that way when he came to me. Focussing on observable behaviours like "stand", "walk", "distance from person leading", you can see how good your training has been and what needs fine tuning. If you focus on intangibles like "manners", you tend to end up blaming the horse for apparently understanding perfectly what humans want in every given situation but choosing not to offer it - unlikely, if you think about how a horse's brain works :)
 
Brightbay said:
Yes, agreed.
My horse is a large non-human animal. He has no concept of manners, and if I start to label his behaviour as "good manners" or "bad manners", I start to have expectations that he somehow *knows* what's acceptable and what's not.

Instead, I just look at it as behaviour. I have trained him to do certain things and to respond to certain requests and cues. He's trained to do all the usual things - follow a lead, maintain a comfortable distance from my shoulder, stop when I stop, trot up for vettings, back up and move shoulders and quarters sideways when asked, drop head when asked, lift and offer hooves when requested, stand quietly. He also has cues for "eat now" and "stop eating now" for grazing in-hand. He puts his own nose into headcollars and bridles, because that's what he's been trained to do.

If he doesn't do any of these things, I usually ask myself why he's responding on this occasion when he's usually dependable, and then I work out what I can do to make it easier for him to respond and how I can make sure, if the same situation arises in the future, that he's able to deal with it. It's up to me to train him well. It's not up to him to work out human concepts like "acceptable manners".

I'm glad to say he's an absolute delight to be around, and especially since he wasn't that way when he came to me. Focussing on observable behaviours like "stand", "walk", "distance from person leading", you can see how good your training has been and what needs fine tuning. If you focus on intangibles like "manners", you tend to end up blaming the horse for apparently understanding perfectly what humans want in every given situation but choosing not to offer it - unlikely, if you think about how a horse's brain works :)
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No-one is asking a horse to understand the human concept of manners or understand the actual meaning of the word lol!

Simply what people find acceptable behaviour and what they don't!
 
"I like mine to be polite and safe to be around yet to retain their own character/personality. I can't be doing will drilling them for any minor mishap. "

Indeed, too many horses are driven witless by endless schooling, manners can be taught and should be, but ending up with a life-weary robot who is easy to handle seems to be the goal for quite a few owners nowadays.
 
amandap said:
"You consider horses manners to be....???"

Another word we use that is meaningless really, not helpful and adds confusion. ;)
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Comments like this just make me laugh .
The same as people bleating that their horses are flight animals when they can't control them .
Manners is a perfect acceptable word to describe what OP is alluding to.
A horse with good manners will have been trained to behave in a way that makes then feel secure because they understand what we require from them , that makes them as safe as it is possible to get them for humans to be around .
Horses live in 'our ' world when they are domestic and we use our words to articulate things they do or we desire from them .
 
Goldenstar said:
Comments like this just make me laugh .
The same as people bleating that their horses are flight animals when they can't control them .
Manners is a perfect acceptable word to describe what OP is alluding to.
A horse with good manners will have been trained to behave in a way that makes then feel secure because they understand what we require from them , that makes them as safe as it is possible to get them for humans to be around .
Horses live in 'our ' world when they are domestic and we use our words to articulate things they do or we desire from them .
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Agreed. 'Manners' is a pretty universal term.
 
hackneylass2 said:
"I like mine to be polite and safe to be around yet to retain their own character/personality. I can't be doing will drilling them for any minor mishap. "

Indeed, too many horses are driven witless by endless schooling, manners can be taught and should be, but ending up with a life-weary robot who is easy to handle seems to be the goal for quite a few owners nowadays.
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Really curious here, what type of endless schooling do you refer to? Any examples?

I like a horse that respects handler/rider but is relaxed and curious. E.g. likes to inspect you can do up rug straps properly and if they can unravel the 4 legs bandages you have accidently left within reach as you turned you back for 30 secs!
 
Illusion, I refer to the riders who 'school' without much knowledge, because they are only comfy in a confined space and won't hack out. I have seen a few such people start with nicely mannered horses that that went sour and nappy because their riders' idea of riding was endless circles in an indoor school, the horses never set foot outside. Usually a case of novice owners overhorsing themselves because the big, young warmbloods (yep all were WBs) they bought looked flashy and impressive. All the gear and no idea kind of folks.
 
hackneylass2 said:
Illusion, I refer to the riders who 'school' without much knowledge, because they are only comfy in a confined space and won't hack out. I have seen a few such people start with nicely mannered horses that that went sour and nappy because their riders' idea of riding was endless circles in an indoor school, the horses never set foot outside. Usually a case of novice owners overhorsing themselves because the big, young warmbloods (yep all were WBs) they bought looked flashy and impressive. All the gear and no idea kind of folks.
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Thanks for reply!

Appreciate your POV on souring a horse under saddle. Have these horses you've seen nap under saddle through a boringly repetitive regime in schoolwork revert to poor ground handing behaviour as well?

Or has poor 'manners' exaggerated issues in ridden work?
 
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My boy is pretty good, it's interesting the difference between him and the other horse on the yard. They're both owned by the same people (I only loan him) so you'd think they'd have the same manners but no.

Mine is polite, has never dragged me anywhere, never purposefully bitten (although sometimes he nibbles, he's a bit babyish, but he gets told NO when he does it), moves out of my way with the slightest touch or click or me just holding my arm out, will neatly pick all four feet up without a fuss, puts his nose into the headcollar and bridle when I hold them out and stands on the yard for hours without making a fuss.

He also now backs up two steps whenever I bring feed/hay into his stable and I'm working on stopping him eating the hay when I'm tying it up!

The only problems I have with him are his dislike for standing still when mounting, I will quite often have to repeat the process several times when getting on, however he now stands while I do stirrups/girth and then moves off when asked, and he sometimes will leave his stable if I leave the door open. Most of the time he'll stand there good as gold, other times he'll dart out and go exploring, he does it quickly as he knows he's not meant to do it!

In comparison the other horse is pretty bad to handle. Drags behind you when being led, then pulls off to get grass, will continuously move when tied on the yard, scrapes the floor, will attempt to walk off when having his bridle put on, will pull his feet away from you, crowds and barges you if you go in with feed/hay and walks off round his box when doing his rugs. He also snatches his reins down to get grass when being ridden, takes a shoulder to the ribs to get him to move over sometimes, threatens to kick if you're in his box with him sometimes, and has recently taken to trying to bite the other ones face, and if the other one has a bridle on he will get hold of it and tug! He broke the flash strap the other day and put teeth marks in the noseband yesterday. So I have to make a point of not going near him when mine is tacked up, although he even does it when riding and leading. Now I take a schooling whip and he'll get a flick when he tries it as he just doesn't listen otherwise.

Second horse has been with the family about 5 years longer than mine and is older and generally spoilt. I don't give mine treats in hand any more as he was getting rude and nippy.

However mine is clever, when I wouldn't let him walk off when being mounted, he would neatly reverse! He figured out he needed three steps backwards before he could be past the mounting block and turn. I had to let him take a couple of steps forward to break that habit before asking him to stand again. He finds standing when being ridden difficult, especially out hacking, and he jogs a bit but that's general excitement/stress and I think he'll always be that way inclined!
 
I expect my horse to lead at whatever distance I ask with her head at my shoulder, stop when I stop, back up when I ask her to back up, yield shoulders and quarters when I ask, move round me in a circle if I ask, stand quietly either actually tied or ground tied, stand for mounting and dismounting and wait for me to as her to move, quietly accept bridle and saddle. She does all of the above without any hassle. I put a lot of work into those ground manners when I got her like 15 years ago, as she was a full of herself and young, and being dragged around by 16.1hh of Shire cross was rather unamusing.

Does it mean she has less "personality?" I don't know, but I don't understand the "training" v. "personality" dichotomy anyway which you always see on threads like this one. People who say, "His manners are alright but I don't want him to lose his personality." As if one has something to do with the other. If its "personality" consists of standing on two legs when I ask it to do something or running me over or being a tool about standing still for mounting, then I damn well do want it to behave differently. I don't call that a "quirk" or he's being cheeky or my favourite, "that's just him." I call it a training problem and my goal with such a horse is to train it to behave in a different -- and from my point of view, more amenable -- way.
 
Illusion100 said:
Or has poor 'manners' exaggerated issues in ridden work?
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IMO Manners is a perfectly acceptable term and one I will use often.

Quality and type of ridden work is not in my mind linked to manners.
However basic behaviour under saddle can be linked.

I find it quite ironic that for someone like me who says basic politeness and safety is paramount but drilling 'manners' into them isn't - consistently ends up with happy well adjusted horses who livery staff always make a point of telling me how nice my horses are to do.

In my mind to achieve this its about the whole picture - a horse that is mentally and physically in the right place, handled with mutual respect and consistency, fed/routine to suit their individual needs etc. And allowed to express themselves (within reason) at appropriate times.
 
Caol Ila said:
Does it mean she has less "personality?" I don't know, but I don't understand the "training" v. "personality" dichotomy anyway which you always see on threads like this one. People who say, "His manners are alright but I don't want him to lose his personality." As if one has something to do with the other. If its "personality" consists of standing on two legs when I ask it to do something or running me over or being a tool about standing still for mounting, then I damn well do want it to behave differently. I don't call that a "quirk" or he's being cheeky or my favourite, "that's just him." I call it a training problem and my goal with such a horse is to train it to behave in a different -- and from my point of view, more amenable -- way.
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I agree. Personality has nothing to do with a horse not knowing (through training, consistent handling and appropriate management) what is expected of him/her, when handled, in my view.

Do people call horses who are difficult under saddle bad mannered? Just interested.
 
I consider good manners to be respect for humans, as much or more than they would give the leader of their herd. So personal space is respected, they stand where they are told to, do as they are told at all times, and treat humans with respect.

No horse would dare bite/kick/barge into/disobey the leader of their herd - they would get seriously told off! It is the same with my horses and I. I need them safe enough to have a toddler in the field with them, to obey commands without needing any tack/headcollar, and to care for the humans who handle and ride them. In general, they are very secure and happy individuals - they know who is in charge, and they feel safe and content.

They are funny after field arguments though - whoever has overstepped the mark and is in trouble, will come running when I arrive, walk up to me and gently ask for fuss as if they're saying, "Mummy, they're all being mean to me!"
 
Illusion100 said:
Thanks for reply!

Appreciate your POV on souring a horse under saddle. Have these horses you've seen nap under saddle through a boringly repetitive regime in schoolwork revert to poor ground handing behaviour as well?

Or has poor 'manners' exaggerated issues in ridden work?
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Hi Illusion.

From the examples I have seen, the horses ground manners did most certainly deteriorate. Not standing for mounting, barging, nipping and quarter swinging, hoof raising threats. Bear in mind though, these poor critters went from stable to school and back again, (repeat ad infinitum) maybe 40 yards at most! I took three such cases on and after turning away for a short while and then hacking out, and of course a little schooling - they really got into the groove again and regained the interest and enthusiasm - and manners, which they once were obviously taught. IMO they were just bored out of their minds, and sometimes couldnt do right for doing wrong purely because the rider was not asking the right questions and giving mixed messages. I also think that the horses took advantage of/ were unsettled by the riders' lack of confidence. The horses certainly re-learned their ground manners without much prompting once they had more to occupy their minds.

This subject is a pet hate with me Illusion :) I call it Trophy Horse Syndrome!
 
Spot_the_Risk said:
The owner has said he gets bored with the farrier, again not acceptable, I'm happy to hold him a few times and keep his attention but will expect him to get on with it a few months down the line.
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This is not unusual for a young horse. Trimming/shoeing can take some time and young horses like all young animals have a short attention span.

I've often had the farrier trim fronts on one and then go and shoe another and the fidgety youngster has a break, maybe a walk or put in a yard with a haynet. Then when the other horse is done the youngsters back feet are done.

Taking the time certainly pays off in the long run
 
Using the word 'manners' (rather than some other term) isn't particularly important to me. It's a convenient shorthand that a lot of people use. What does make a difference though is how we think they come about, and hence how we respond when they're not there and how we teach the horse to have 'good manners'.
 
Put it this way... I pointed at Ferg's chest and told him to go to his stable the other night. So he reversed all the way back up the field and put himself in :D
 
I've had my boy since he was three so we know each other like a book. I expect him to go back when the door opens, respect my space when I have hay to hang , he must go back when coming in with his feed etc also no pawing or kicking the door. He has loads of personality and to begin with it was a fine line of getting rules enforced before he became too cheeky, if you got harsh with him then he could turn bolshy. He knows the rules and he's extremely well behaved, a pleasure to be around :)
 
I can't stand bad manners in horses. Even with our foals (especially our foals!) I still expect nice polite manners. I do however make allowances for each horse as an individual. My ancient old horses (who do have good manners) are allowed to jog along if they wish, I feel they've earned the right to zip along at whatever speed they like. The younger ones, no, if I ask for walk I expect walk and will make them walk. My riding horses are good and behave well, as are my broodmares. I teach and expect all of mine to behave for vets and farriers, and my broodmares to accept quietly whatever comes along at breeding and foaling season.

There are a couple of horses who live on my farm whose owners let them do whatever they like. I never say anything to them as that's up to them, however if I am handling those horses then yes they behave as I pick them up on their irritating little habits. I don't understand people who let horses run roughshod over them tbh. It doesn't make for a good horse.
 
My lad may not understand either the concept of manners or the actual word but he knows what I mean when I growl "manners" at him if he's out of line. When he has been particularly polite, for example by watching exactly where my feet are in a tight gateway, he often gets a scratch and a "manners maketh horse".

I am too creaky these days to want to deal with horses who haven't been taught good behaviour, manners, or whatever anyone wants to call it.
 
mystiandsunny said:
I consider good manners to be respect for humans, as much or more than they would give the leader of their herd. So personal space is respected, they stand where they are told to, do as they are told at all times, and treat humans with respect.

No horse would dare bite/kick/barge into/disobey the leader of their herd - they would get seriously told off! It is the same with my horses and I. I need them safe enough to have a toddler in the field with them, to obey commands without needing any tack/headcollar, and to care for the humans who handle and ride them. In general, they are very secure and happy individuals - they know who is in charge, and they feel safe and content.
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So how does one get to this happy state of affairs?

1) Emulate the dominant horse in a herd (assuming that's what you had in mind with 'leader') and in so doing gain the kind of 'respect' that you have described - including desired behaviours like standing where they are told to, which horses don't usually engage in.

2) Teach the manners you want without the kind of aggressive pushiness or threatening body language that dominant horses show towards subordinates. In other words, concentrate on behaviour rather than attitude, and end up being in charge and the horse feeling safe anyway.

You can probably guess which one I go for!
 
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