You need a bit to do dressage - discuss

when i first started riding baring in mind this is only about 13 years ago it was all about riding a horse into the bridle, or leg to hand no mention of on the bit. Surely those principles apply to a bitless bridle as well but then i am not a dressage rider what so ever but i am very curious about what people think will watch with interest :)
 
Nice to see :)

Does anybody know if you can enter dressage under BD rules bitless but go HC? Or do you still need to be in correct tack to go HC?
 
After some very successful (bareback and) bitless riding last night I was wondering the same thing as Quirky... if enough ppl did it they *might* even relax the rules eventually...
 
quirky said:
Nice to see :)

Does anybody know if you can enter dressage under BD rules bitless but go HC? Or do you still need to be in correct tack to go HC?
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id like to know this too! my mare isnt a big fan of bits and goes much better without!
 
Love this, demonstrated everything dressage should be. After all, the whole point of dressage is subtle aids and a relaxed horse, so why should you need bits when most of the aids should be from seat and legs and subtle weight aids.

Would love to see bitless being allowed in BD, it would show the truly talented and soft combinations and i think it would lead to progression in riding and the need for less reliance on the hands (which i think many have become too reliant on).

After all, it's only about training to respond to different aids. If a bit is not to inflict pain to create results, then it makes sense that we don't need one at all. Just need to train the horse to be sensitive to whatever other aids are taught.

This has made me happy, thanks for posting, it's an inspiration and reinforces my life's ambition (which i am a very long way off but hopefully have 40 years of riding left in me to keep trying!)
 
I haven't watched the vid..I dunno. An old instructor said that bitless dressage is ridiculous and useless and not achievable, but I don't agree with that. You see some demo's where people are schooling GP stuff with no saddle or bridle..though I suspect that at the higher levels, the bit *may* give more refinement - but I've never tried bitless so I don't know.

Over here, bitless dressage is legal in affiliated competitions at all levels (except FEI ones, obviously, because they're done under FEI rules).
 
quirky said:
Nice to see :)

Does anybody know if you can enter dressage under BD rules bitless but go HC? Or do you still need to be in correct tack to go HC?
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This is an interesting question, and you might have to go direct to BD and ask them about it. I plan to do dressage and wh HC with my boy because im not going to bit him just because the rules state that i should.

I still hope some day that the FEI will change the rules regarding bitless, because the bit really is irrelevent. From what ive heard it was a mistranslation of 'on the bridle' to 'on the bit', so many people still believe that the bit is needed to do high school dressage. Maybe some day enough people will want to ride and compete bitless and we can put enough pressure on the FEI and get the rules changed.
 
quirky said:
Nice to see :)

Does anybody know if you can enter dressage under BD rules bitless but go HC? Or do you still need to be in correct tack to go HC?
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I've entered unaffiliated stuff in a bitless and just gone HC. The first one we went into, we got the highest mark by about 10%. Watching that made me think that I might just dig out my bitless again.....
 
I wanted to enter a share horse I had into unaffiliated local dressage bitless and was told it was down to the judge on the day whether to allow it or not! Didnt get a chance to in the end but she went a million times better into the contact when it was on her nose not her mouth.
 
There is nothing in BD rules about bitless , loads on what bits you can or cannot use etc etc , I dont suppose there are lot of people out there that confident to compete bitless ( excluding Hackamore's ) ... I know there are alot more than when the BD rule book was written ( back in the dark ages !!!!) . I think that BD are the only group that are so funny about bitting .... all the other groups that I have asked about rules on their bits all say , as long as your horse is happy and accepting of the bit , thats fine ...... WAKE UP BD and join the enlightened 21st Century !!!!!
 
Agree with you there bj666 - BD, well, FEI generally live in the dark ages. I agree with some things but I never know what it is they are trying to preserve????

Isn't bitless allowed in any discipline if your horse has a mouth injury or tooth problem? I'm sure I went to watch my RI compete once and another competitor entered in a scawbrig and the whispers were it had got an ulcer on it's gum and the judge allowed it.

As long as the horse can perform I don't see a problem with bitless... after all as you say there is NOTHING to say you CANNOT :D

I dressage in a pelham at the moment but have schooled him in just his lunge cavesson without a problem... however, put a snaffle in his mouth and it's 'fight to the death'!
 
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As things stand you cannot compete in dressage without a bit.

So you won't ever see the like of the video, except as a nice training skit on YouTube.

So the argument that you can't do high level dressage bitless, will never be satisfied as you'll never see anyone doing it in the ring.

And I think that's a shame.

If there are no concerns about safety - there should be no problem with competeing bitless.

It should be a choice between horse and rider.
 
The video shows a lovely example of sympathetic riding, I'm sure the horse would look just a nice in a bit.

The problem with bitless is which to allow, there are many many varieties and to work they obviously apply pressure differently to a snaffle, most use some kind of poll pressure. The belief that they are kinder than a basic snaffle is also rubbish, many can be quite harsh in their own way.It all comes back to the old argument that it is not what is on the horses head (bitted or bitless) but the hands at the other end!
 
Maybe pressure needs to be put on BD etc to justify the bitting rules they have . There is so much evidence as to how bits work and tongue pressure and tongue relief etc etc and all about evasion due to single jointed bits and pressure on horses tongues that stop them swallowing ( then you see the open mouth , so strap it shut, tongue over bit , so strap it shut or put a tongue bit in or a band on , leaning on the bit , give it a jab in the mouth , head tossing , put a martingale on , chewing , strap its mouth closed ) most of these can be due to pressure on the tongue with a jointed bit , take the pressure off the tongue ... happy horse ! I have Myler bits and it was a real lightbulb moment when it was explained how they work . I think anyone who makes rules up should be fully aware of all the possibilities and alternatives and understand the subject fully before they discount anything... and move on and update ..... well at least once a century !!!!!
 
Well today, I put my old, arthritic gelding back into his bitless for a schooling session. I forgot how wonderful it was - i only went back to a bit last time as I wanted to compete and not have to go hc every time! But now the competing has finished for him, he'll be staying in his Dr Cooks. He went like a 10 year old instead of a 21 year old and all thoughts of full retirement for him went out the window! It's really strange how he froths at the mouth in a bitless, but has never ever done so in a bit!
 
bj666 said:
pressure on horses tongues that stop them swallowing....I have Myler bits and it was a real lightbulb moment when it was explained how they work
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I'm sure that pressure on the tongue does have a big effect on swallowing etc - however I too have been given the myler related spiel about putting your finger in your mouth, pressing down on your tongue, trying to swallow and proving that you can't. All well and good. But in fact just put your finger between your teeth under your tongue and try to swallow - you can just about do it but it hurts like hell - you can't swallow with your mouth open like that, tongue imobilised or not. So I'm not too keen on that particular marketing tool ;)

eta - not knocking mylers pe se, got one pony who adores hers far more than anything else (I have to say, I like it less - but ain't going to fix what isn't broken)
 
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A numpty question about bitless- I thought that bitless worked by applying pressure to the nose and poll? To me, that's just as bad as a bit...
 
Lolo said:
A numpty question about bitless- I thought that bitless worked by applying pressure to the nose and poll? To me, that's just as bad as a bit...
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You're right - there are a number of bitless bridles out there which are just as bad and do work by putting pressure on the nose and poll. The Dr Cooks is slightly different in that when you turn, it works by putting pressure on the outside of the face to encourage the face to turn that way as it crosses under the jaw. The brakes work by putting a gentle pressure all around the head. I have a sheepskin noseband on mine to stop too much pressure and a gel poll guard on, so there is no poll pressure at all. In my opinion, there is nothing that you can put on the outside of the head which is as invasive and painful as something you put in the mouth......however I am not anti-bit - my mare wears a bit as she is still in the early stages of her training, but when she has reached a reasonable standard of training she will start by having a bitless bridle on for hacking out as I don't want her bitted all the time.
 
Why is a correctly fitted bit so bad though? I appreciate that badly fitted bits, along with badly fitted everything, are terrible but surely a well fitted bit is reasonable?

I think the trouble I have is, barring these videos of amazing riders, I have only seen local riders using them, with horses holding their heads high to escape the poll pressure or becoming chronic headshakers, or just generally looking terrifying. The same does apply to badly bitted horses too.
 
I don't think debating which is better - bit or bitless is the point.

Any equipment used on a horse can be used sypathetically or harshly depending on the hands behind them.

The point is that BD is not giving horse owners the choice on what to use and that (IMO) is wrong.
 
Oberon said:
I don't think debating which is better - bit or bitless is the point.

Any equipment used on a horse can be used sypathetically or harshly depending on the hands behind them.

The point is that BD is not giving horse owners the choice on what to use and that (IMO) is wrong.
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Out of interest if BD should allow the owners to choose do you think BD should allow anything on the head and any type of bit(s) on a bridle at all levels?

At the moment BD also don't allow many types of bits or bit combination, not just bitless and below Elementary level only certain snaffles are allowed so there is already a limited choice for horse owners.
 
Lolo said:
A numpty question about bitless- I thought that bitless worked by applying pressure to the nose and poll? To me, that's just as bad as a bit...
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not numpty at all ........all questions are relevant ;)

you are quite right that bitless bridles do apply pressure to different areas . :) ... and both can cause discomfort / pain

.. but there are differences to consider and the main one for me is ...

the mouth / tongue area has far more nerve endings, just like humans, and the same amount of "pull" / contact / pressure applied to a small area by a thin metal bar creates far more pressure psi than a broad strap over the nose for example. This is neither good nor bad per se but inexperienced / harsh hands taking hold on a bit can create far more pain and injury than the same hands in most bitless bridles. The "simple" single jointed snaffle can also impact the palate as well with quite a small but high psi ratio and its the bit of choice for many novice riders.



There seems to be a trend too, as pointed out by others, in that if the horse is not "controlled" by one bit then some riders just keep putting harsher bits in .. harsher usually means thinner metal or shutting horses mouth over it :rolleyes: I dont know of any bitless bridles that have a similar escalation of "severity .... except the long shank of a hackamore fitted tightly perhaps.




The FEI steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the evidence that horses can and do perform just as well bitless as bitted and not just in dressage. One arguement given for not allowing them was that they would then have to legislate as to which bridles are acceptable and which not ......errrmmmmm dont they do that re bits already :rolleyes:






Lovely video to watch ...... I wish I could show it ( but I cant remember where it is now) but I have seen these moves done by a horse in Oz that had never had a bit in at all, it was just beautiful to watch ;)
 
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