"You should be prepared to pay more"

[gallopingby]

SO1 the 8.5k you have spent will likely feel very good value in 5 years time. Twenty years ago l bought a 6 year old connie for 6k broken and ridden but without a competition record who went on to become a very successful pony. I was offered over three times the price l’d paid three years later. There simply aren’t enough sound, safe and sensible well schooled large native breeds around at the moment. The price of youngstock has risen considerably over the last ten years as have the number of people who consider it their right to own a horse whether they have the experience, facilities or finance to do so.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

When people go looking for a horse they all seem to want 5 year old gelding, 15h 2"- 16h, no stable vices, has 3 established paces, easy to do. Oh, they also say they don't want a world beater but horse can jump a small course of show jumps & do a competent dressage test. They expect to buy this horse for £2,000 or less? I know people who produce horses & make their living normally producing show jumpers & dressage horses & they say if they could fill their stables with what I've described earlier they would be extremely happy & make a really good living because most riders want that type of horse/pony. Problem is they are rare as hens teeth. These easy to do, show jumping, dressage test doing & good to hack out are worth a good wad of money but most horse buyers expect to buy these horses for no money?

 

[ThreeFurs]

This is interesting. I've been idlely looking for my next horse, while still having my beloved retired schoolmaster, and enjoying my borrowed Clydie X. I'm older now, and all the money I had when I bought three educated wbs in a row over 12 years is gone. So I'm looking for an 'off' dressage breed with reasonable movement and some physical resilience.

But SO is everyone else now. At least in SE Australia. I also pencil regularly for my dressage club so get to see a huge range of types.

It seems the warmblood breeders [not all of them, am not generalising] haven't overall succeeded in meeting the amateur market needs for sporty but rideable horses. So the prices for wb young stock seem to be falling, while over in the Stock Horse/Paint/Clydie/ working horse market, prices are going through the roof, I think in a large part due to perception of temperament and versatility. I saw a stock horse mare with best old heritage lines, lovely in every way who had won a bit of stuff at AU$30,000.

At comps I'm also seeing riders on smaller horses, even ponies, in contrast to a few years ago. And of course, for all markets, the inestimable Australian tb and standardbreds make up a big part of the ammie but competitive population.

So, people haven't 'been prepared to pay more' ... if its not meeting a need.

 

[Kaylum]

We were selling ours 26 years ago for the prices today. Eventing and showjumping ponies were going for 20k without being advertised. Then the horse market dropped dramatically and nothing was selling so people dropped their prices. Police horses were no longer required we bred quite a few.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

People still expect racehorses to be given away or to pay peanuts for them. These horses have value beyond token money. Yes some are still given away, usually broken ones. But racehorses are some of the safest, sanest horses you will ever come across. I would far rather have a 6yo that has raced than a 6yo warmblood. You know the racehorse will have seen loads of life and will have generally only gone in straight lines. They won't have been pinned in, gone round and round in tiny circles, been jumped from a yearling for futurities etc.

I ride a 150k horse at the moment. When he leaves racing, no matter what he had done he will be sold for 4k. If he wins some huge races then he will be loaned so we can keep tabs on him.

 

[sollimum]

The majority of the amateur market is looking for a kind horse that will do low level activities and ride out in heavy traffic, load easily, good with the farrier and vet, happy in a stable and field. Oh at least 15hh and can be ridden in large open spaces, at fun rides etc and is sound. There will have been a lot of input along the way for that sort of horse even thought it is not a competition horse.

 

[Glitter's fun]

The majority of the amateur market is looking for a kind horse that will do low level activities and ride out in heavy traffic, load easily, good with the farrier and vet, happy in a stable and field. Oh at least 15hh and can be ridden in large open spaces, at fun rides etc and is sound. There will have been a lot of input along the way for that sort of horse even thought it is not a competition horse.

I can only think of one breeder who teaches all their horses to hack before they're sold (and he isn't in UK). Would videos of kind family horses loading, hacking, coming to call in the field etc , mean people would be happy to pay more ? Is it possible that all those jumping pictures aren't the best way of selling ?

 

[ThreeFurs]

Yes to sollimum and Goldie's mum. The input into the horse or pony along the way, and then demonstrating that input in action in the ad. Then people would be happy to pay more. Re: the latter, I do see these lovely little 'from catching in the paddock to putting away' vignettes in ads, and they are good. [sometimes need a bit of fast-forwarding double time editing, but that's ok.

 

[paddi22]

The majority of the amateur market is looking for a kind horse that will do low level activities and ride out in heavy traffic, load easily, good with the farrier and vet, happy in a stable and field. Oh at least 15hh and can be ridden in large open spaces, at fun rides etc and is sound. There will have been a lot of input along the way for that sort of horse even thought it is not a competition horse.

I agree with what you say but would disagree slightly on one point. I don't think the majority are looking for that kind of horse, competitive amateurs and the younger generations coming up want flashier horses. As a result, he majority of people coming to view horses seem to be totally over-horsing themselves. People seem to think they need flashy to jump over 90s/100m, which is madness. The reliable, non-flashy proper kind amateur horse is what they need, is well able to do what they want, but they don't seem to want that. They don't seem to value them as being worth anything as they don't have 'breeding' and doesn't have the same paces compared to their friends horses etc. people have a price in their head about what horses cost, and it's totally unrealistic.

 

[Xmasha]

I do always sigh a little when I see those posts . I assume it’s someone who thinks their horse/foal is worth more than what they’ve been offered. Sport horse foals whether that be dressage / jumping etc can be difficult to get the top dollar £££ . I’m sure a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon of the high prices of Covid and assume they will get the same return . In normal times to get those high prices you need to be an established breeder with results that speak for themselves . Plus the mare line , plus ( the most important bit ) a lorry full of luck .
I’m trying to breed all rounders , for people like me . Middle Aged women who want a nice all rounder .
Some question why , it’s certainly not for the money. I do it because I love every minute of the process . If I could get enough to cover my costs I’d be happy .
I had someone look for a chestnut filly foal of county standard. Yep , got one of those . The response of ‘out of my budget’ when I told them the price was a little surprising. But hey ho , I will keep her and show her next year . I will get the price I want for her and I’m prepared to wait until that happens .
As for people thinking it’s ok to let mares foal without supervision. Shame on you . Those people tend to hide behind the ‘ I’ve done this for a million years and never had a problem ‘ well good for you . ( theres probably another reason which they won’t admit to .. like it costs more to do it and yes it tiring staying up ) Personally I care too much for the well-being of both mare and foal to take that attitude.

 

[honetpot]

There are two sayings that are true today as when I heard them over fifty years ago, 'fools breed horses so that wise men can ride' and 'its costs as much to keep a good'un as a bad'un'.
I have run my equines what ever breed they were basically on the cheap, like cattle. They get mainly forage,water, wormed and see th farrier and the vet, spend most of their life unrugged, and the all the tack I have is a least thirty years old, and the only thing kit wise I buy is cheap head collars.I can keep five on what some people would spend on one or two. I could do this even when I had five at grass livery.
There are lots of things people buy that are completely unnecessary, you buy wisely and you buy once.
TBH I hope it does become more expensive, too many people buy horses as a lifestyle choice, a bit like gym membership without the serious learning, and I do not mean just learning to ride, that goes behind it. My favorite knowledge gap is the posting of common weeds on FB, with, 'is it safe for my horse to eat this?', and I think they must be so detached from their envrioment, and would rather ask a random than do a quick google and get reliable information, are they fit to take responsibilty for a horse.
Breeding is a money pit, and if you can not sell it as a foal, you are stuck with it till three at least. I now sell mine as unbacked three year olds, I used to sell the backed at four, and if you buy the right one and keep your costs down you can make a bit of money on them, but not a lot. I now buy in stock as a store, just for a bit of fun, and I will admit that most of my fun comes from buying something that no one else wants, or sees as a problem and seeing it change in to something that lots of people want. Breeding may get people to look at the advert but in reality something that easy to handle and has a nice temprement will always sell if it fits the brieif to the non pro.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Breeding may get people to look at the advert but in reality something that easy to handle and has a nice temprement will always sell if it fits the brieif to the non pro.

I keep a regular eye on a local FB site. The ad.s are pretty much identical except for the age/size of the rider. If you blink you could mistake one school/round of jumps for another. Most adverts seem to stay up for 2 or 3 weeks.
Last week there was a video of a hunter, showing his route to the meet - stand to be mounted, hack along a road, over a motorway bridge, through a couple of gates. I phoned when the ad. had been up an hour. The horse had already sold unseen & the owner said he could have sold him three times in that hour!

 

[Lois Lame]

I think I know what you're getting at. Part of me thinks that perhaps what we need is more hardy cobs bred out on a moor, etc. Do we really need the sort of horses that require AI, multiple scans, special feed, 24 hour monitoring etc to get a healthy foal on the ground? I know I don't. Welsh and Exmoor ponies seem to manage okay with far less intervention than that.

And I do realise that sometimes things go horribly and fatally wrong for those ponies, but then mares and foals are also lost at amazingly well equipped studs - it's just a much more expensive loss.

That sounds extremely harsh but it's just a half formed thought I've been musing on for a while, I'm not advocating everyone chucking their breeding stock out in a field and leaving them to it.

I often think we do disservice to a mare making her foal in a stable. To be able to move during labour is a great and helpful thing.

 

[marmalade76]

The majority of the amateur market is looking for a kind horse that will do low level activities and ride out in heavy traffic, load easily, good with the farrier and vet, happy in a stable and field. Oh at least 15hh and can be ridden in large open spaces, at fun rides etc and is sound. There will have been a lot of input along the way for that sort of horse even thought it is not a competition horse.

Agreed, and there's a lack of this sort of horse being bred now. I think the majority of breeders are in one extreme or the other, there's those that chuck a load of cobs out in a field and leave them to it and those that are trying to breed competition horses with high stud fees, AI costs, etc, etc and very little in between. There are plenty of ex-racehorses who will do the job but not everyone wants a TB, some might want something hardier, with more bone, some might not want something so tall.

I'm not surprised to hear that some competition bred horses are ending up with bin end dealers, there's only so many people who want a competition horse, there's probably more people who just want to hack and faff about in a school at home than ever before. I myself am now in that category, I've just given £1500 for a 21 year old just retired Argi polo pony of around 15/15.1. A few years ago, she'd have been £500 max (I think that those out there expecting to get a nice allrounder for £2k are a small minority). I didn't really want to buy an oldie, I've lost horses younger than her and it's hard, but I need something reliable now. No, she won't go round the school on the bridle and yes
she has lumps and bumps and windgalls but she's easy to do, I don't need any help loading or clipping her and I can chuck the tack on and go out for a canter without getting bucked or spooked off.

And as for paying what they cost to produce, that depends entirely on the end product, if you've produced something with an iffy temperament or iffy conformation or health issues - something that won't do a job for someone, no one is going to give you good money for it.

 

[honetpot]

There would perhaps be more good horses for sale, if there were more good buyers. My friend is sixty eight and has a 14.2 cob that has no competition experince, but is just about anybodies ride. She told me shes ridden it nine times this year hacking, and lets others borrow it but the thought of getting a load of numpties asking basically is it as quiet as a rocking horse makes her leave it the back paddock. I am virtually the same, I have a 14.2 which I bred out on loan and on paper its should be worth £5k but its easier to put that back in the field when they have finnished with it, and there it will stay.

 

[humblepie]

People still expect racehorses to be given away or to pay peanuts for them. These horses have value beyond token money. Yes some are still given away, usually broken ones. But racehorses are some of the safest, sanest horses you will ever come across. I would far rather have a 6yo that has raced than a 6yo warmblood. You know the racehorse will have seen loads of life and will have generally only gone in straight lines. They won't have been pinned in, gone round and round in tiny circles, been jumped from a yearling for futurities etc.

I ride a 150k horse at the moment. When he leaves racing, no matter what he had done he will be sold for 4k. If he wins some huge races then he will be loaned so we can keep tabs on him.

I was lucky to be given mine and it’s nice that suitable homes are found for them but I think good to sell for a sensible price. Quality well bred horses with good confirmation and temperament definitely worth a price and as you say they have life experience.

 

[TheMule]

Perhaps people should aim to upskill themselves to make their own horses if they can’t/ won’t pay what it costs for someone else to produce them.

 

[ihatework]

At the end of the day it is economics.
It’s as simple as a horse is worth a combination of what a buyer will pay and a seller will sell for.

If those don’t match the buyer either finds a cheaper horse and accepts whatever compromise that may bring or increases their budget. The seller either reduces their price or accepts they keep horse until another buyer comes along and/or the horse’s CV has increased sufficiently that it sells.

Unless ‘you’ are cutting massive corners most small breeders will be lucky to cover costs, let alone make a profit! Anyone breeding on a small scale relying on making money needs their head read

Buyers who want ‘perfection’ on a small budget possibly need their head read too though.

Plenty of good value horses out there if you are flexible and can produce your own.

 

[maya2008]

You can see the effect of this. There are no professional producers for the amateur market. Pro trainers yes, because they get their money for the hours they do, and whether that increases the value of the horse or not isn’t their problem.

That gives you a market where horses are predominantly trained by amateurs. If they’re doing so for themselves, they will have less experience than a pro as they will do less horses over time. That then leads to the ‘quirks’ that people complain of; to horses that are ok to ride but have no ground manners; horses that won’t load, or struggle to hack alone etc. The person who bought a ‘cheap’ horse then needs to spend the rest of the money on a trainer to fill the holes in their horse’s education. If they can find one that is, as BHS stages have little to do with young horses, being designed in a time when there actually were professionals to produce them. Or you get the amateur who buys a youngster because that is what they are willing to pay for, and completely messes it up, because they have no idea what they are doing and cannot find a trainer who has a clue to help them.

In the end, lots of people lose confidence, sports horses become field ornaments or bin end dealer fodder, and children struggle to progress from ponies (where a parent might well have produced it once for their child) to horses.

 

[SO1]

Saddler came yesterday. She asked me how much how much I paid for Bert and she quite shocked we have known each other a long time. However once she lunged him and seen him move seen me have a walk around on him in Homey's saddle and seen his behaviour she said he is a superb pony well behaved and well trained.

Homey was 3150 15 years ago as a 5 yr old when NF were not popular.

SO1 the 8.5k you have spent will likely feel very good value in 5 years time. Twenty years ago l bought a 6 year old connie for 6k broken and ridden but without a competition record who went on to become a very successful pony. I was offered over three times the price l’d paid three years later. There simply aren’t enough sound, safe and sensible well schooled large native breeds around at the moment. The price of youngstock has risen considerably over the last ten years as have the number of people who consider it their right to own a horse whether they have the experience, facilities or finance to do so.

 

[ihatework]

You can see the effect of this. There are no professional producers for the amateur market. Pro trainers yes, because they get their money for the hours they do, and whether that increases the value of the horse or not isn’t their problem.

That gives you a market where horses are predominantly trained by amateurs. If they’re doing so for themselves, they will have less experience than a pro as they will do less horses over time. That then leads to the ‘quirks’ that people complain of; to horses that are ok to ride but have no ground manners; horses that won’t load, or struggle to hack alone etc. The person who bought a ‘cheap’ horse then needs to spend the rest of the money on a trainer to fill the holes in their horse’s education. If they can find one that is, as BHS stages have little to do with young horses, being designed in a time when there actually were professionals to produce them. Or you get the amateur who buys a youngster because that is what they are willing to pay for, and completely messes it up, because they have no idea what they are doing and cannot find a trainer who has a clue to help them.

In the end, lots of people lose confidence, sports horses become field ornaments or bin end dealer fodder, and children struggle to progress from ponies (where a parent might well have produced it once for their child) to horses.

This 200%

I’d love to (and think I would be good at) breeding and producing normal horses for the amateur market. I don’t even want to make a business out of it. But the reality is I would need to keep that horse and train it until it is 6 years old to be confident it was solid for an amateur. To then only perhaps get 10-12k and if the horse went on to have a little whoopsie I’d probably get sued and plastered over FB.

Why would anyone bother??

 

[Jambarissa]

I think there's a huge market for a level below this Tbh.

The midlife crisis happy hacker market is growing very fast. It's people with money to spend who want a quiet obedient hack who doesnt need regular work.

There is a dealer near me who caters for this. Buys in from Ireland and sorts out any handling issues and makes them bombproof in traffic and perfect to hack. No schooling, no jumping, just easy reliable horses. Charges a good £7-£10k and gets it quite easily, although I have noticed he's got more in than he usually would have.

I'm window shopping for approximately this sort with a plan to buy in the autumn, I'm immediately put off by anything doing a huge jump!

Interestingly my friends keep sending me links to deeply unsuitable beautiful horses. There has definitely been a move towards 'he's unrideable but isn't he beautuful'.

 

[gallopingby]

I can remember many years ago a keen middle aged friend of mine bought a rather ugly horse from a reputable dealer, she was her first horse, well matched, they did a bit of everything with great success safe, sound and steady but definitely not pretty. Eventually she upgraded to a flashier model a partbred TB rather than cob how many times over the next few years did my friend regret her decision. There just aren’t the facilities to put the work in to horses these days. To many people looking for instant results but not willing to do the ground work or with sufficient time and interest to achieve a good long term result.

 

[LEC]

You can see the effect of this. There are no professional producers for the amateur market. Pro trainers yes, because they get their money for the hours they do, and whether that increases the value of the horse or not isn’t their problem.

That gives you a market where horses are predominantly trained by amateurs. If they’re doing so for themselves, they will have less experience than a pro as they will do less horses over time. That then leads to the ‘quirks’ that people complain of; to horses that are ok to ride but have no ground manners; horses that won’t load, or struggle to hack alone etc. The person who bought a ‘cheap’ horse then needs to spend the rest of the money on a trainer to fill the holes in their horse’s education. If they can find one that is, as BHS stages have little to do with young horses, being designed in a time when there actually were professionals to produce them. Or you get the amateur who buys a youngster because that is what they are willing to pay for, and completely messes it up, because they have no idea what they are doing and cannot find a trainer who has a clue to help them.

In the end, lots of people lose confidence, sports horses become field ornaments or bin end dealer fodder, and children struggle to progress from ponies (where a parent might well have produced it once for their child) to horses.

Because there is no money in it…. People want to pay minimal amounts for the work that has gone in so either better with young horses which are green where they are what they are or producing smart competition horses which will have more value and be worth the time going in which ironically will be the same amount.

I have some 4yo at the moment and had forgotten the time which needs to go in on everything. Yesterday one decided he didn’t like his legs being brushed so spent time sorting that out. Then decided he was going to move for mounting - I am super fussy on this so more time sorting it out.

 

[MagicMelon]

I absolutely get why breeders charge a lot for horses. However, they dont tend to breed IMO for the amateur affordable market. Ive never bought a horse from a breeder before. I have bought youngsters from amateur breeders, those who just want to breed a foal or two for the fun of it. Plenty of them around and they're not in it for the money so I can actually afford the horse.

 

[lme]

I think there's a huge market for a level below this Tbh.

The midlife crisis happy hacker market is growing very fast. It's people with money to spend who want a quiet obedient hack who doesnt need regular work.

There is a dealer near me who caters for this. Buys in from Ireland and sorts out any handling issues and makes them bombproof in traffic and perfect to hack. No schooling, no jumping, just easy reliable horses. Charges a good £7-£10k and gets it quite easily, although I have noticed he's got more in than he usually would have.

I'm window shopping for approximately this sort with a plan to buy in the autumn, I'm immediately put off by anything doing a huge jump!

Interestingly my friends keep sending me links to deeply unsuitable beautiful horses. There has definitely been a move towards 'he's unrideable but isn't he beautuful'.

I bought myself a 4yo one of those during lockdown. Irish, large, though actually actually nicely bred and by no means a plod. In someone else's hands she could be at least an upmarket RC horse. I happily paid 5 figures for her because, at my age, I don't bounce and its nice to know we can hack past a gritter with flashing lights or motorists making quetsionable decisions with out her batting an eyelid.