young eventers attitudes

Firstly If your read Georgie's Blog properly you will see she had been taking Advice from Lucinda Green. A previous winner, Who along with Yogi Briesner and Mark and Tanya Kyle advised her that she was ready to take on a 4*

She was not as written earlier "Going at break neck speed through out the course" as she was only just on her time.

Georgie wrote " then came the dreaded Rolex Combination, a rail with a ditch underneath, two strides followed by a narrow corner on a straight line. Having got my line sussed out and taking in the advice I'd been given and how it had been riding for those before me, I kept coming to the rail, to get a good forward shot for two long strides out over the corner.
However, as I sat back waiting for the second stride, Ben took off on one.

This shows a rider who can take the initiative and talk to previous riders and gain there advice and experience on how to ride a tricky element of the course, she took on there advice but he come up out of her hands on one stride. Hardly her fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For people to say she has no respect or care for Master Monarch with the way she rode the course is utter crap. She is Honoured to be riding such a wonderfull horse.

Oli townend is a very positive rider who has fall's XC, he does not seem to get slatted on public forums????


PS There were lots of other falls at Burghley.......Not just Georgie, they dont seem to have a large thread on them!!

Caledonia wrote " And why can't this be discussed factually without it becoming personal - the rider rode it badly - if you don't think that then it's worrying. "

But you have not had the facts your going by a 10 second clip on the tv, not the days and hours before. She was advised to attack for those strides. It didnt come off. And she and Ben paid the penalty!!!
 
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I find in eventing i'm more often than not very impressed with our younger riders.

I think watching interviews with the like of Emily L and Lauren Shannon show them up to be very mature and very grateful towards their horses in general, the younger ones always always give credit to the horses.

I feel sorry for GS, she did make a mistake but im sure she knows it, and her blog to me read like a young person who was aware of it and was just trying to make the best of a horrible time for her, by showing a little bit of bravado.
 
Uff, okay I think I've read about all now.

A1JUMPJOCKEY said:
Firstly If your read Georgie's Blog properly you will see she had been taking Advice from Lucinda Green. A previous winner, Who along with Yogi Briesner and Mark and Tanya Kyle advised her that she was ready to take on a 4*
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And why did two rather experienced riders, who know MM rather well, think (and say so - e.g. to owner and rider) this combination was not? Why was MM retired? 2 Years ago? Why did he run his last CCI4 3 years ago? Why did GS never explain that to us?

I'm sure, well, despite of some of what I read here, everybody knows that your own website or your own blog, is always just a totally sugarcoated portrait of yourself. There is always another side, which trust on H+H, was never asked about it's take on these things - journalism at it's finest.

Well done, after reading the comments in here, only prayer might safe eventing and the horses from dozens of more G. Strangs. That or Mike Tucker.
 
A1JUMPJOCKEY said:
Caledonia wrote " And why can't this be discussed factually without it becoming personal - the rider rode it badly - if you don't think that then it's worrying. "

But you have not had the facts your going by a 10 second clip on the tv, not the days and hours before. She was advised to attack for those strides. It didnt come off. And she and Ben paid the penalty!!!
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It makes NO difference whatsoever what she has done beforehand. This is commenting on the fence that she fell at, nothing more or less. YOU are the one making it personal, I'm discussing watching what was a genuinely potentially fatal fall, why it happened, and how could that information change the way another rider might avoid that happening in future.

She didn't 'attack' the fence, she allowed the horse to roll at it at speed, long and low. He wasn't prepared for what was to come, and as he'd been launching elsewhere on the course to get himself out of jail, he did it again at the second element.

She is a very lucky girl to walk away from that.

Unless people see and understand why these falls happen, then it will keep happening. Some falls cannot be avoided, this could have been, hence why it should be discussed.
 
Eating my own words, I had not read it all...

"[...] or he was a little over enthusiastic and had possibly wanted to show off for the crowds by doing what no other horse had tried, however I will never know. "

Okay I just have to say it, she did get kicked in the head alright, geez. Another advice to H+H, don't make a bad situation worse. She probably *is* confused at the moment - and she should be yes - but even I don't see the need to expose someone to ridicule like you do/she does with GS and the above.
 
This is exactly the sort of post big comp thread I was hoping to quash with my 'Burghley 2010 impressed by...' post but sadly that didn't work :(

I think it's very unfair to criticise any young rider at this level as they are still cutting their teeth, but their whole leraning curve is carried out under the hugely critical eye of thousands of people, they are photographed, interviewed, videoed, and all their heart ache and mistakes plastered across the internet for anyone to watch and make assumptions about. Just imagine being a sportsman but equallly the flip side of your passion now dictates you are also fair game for the media?! The pressure of this spot light is immense and I just don't know how they cope with the additional stress. I actuallly think that all the riders should be asked permission before getting their rounds streamed on the web.

If you were doing your first 4* 10 years ago and crashed the worst that would happen would be the people round the fence seeing it happen and maybe the odd timely shot if a tog happpened to be there, now every spectator has a camera phone, camcorder, is uploading their footage immediately to the net, pro togs at almost every fence, National TV coverage, online footage from almost every fence, forums full of 'opinions' picking your performance apart.

We should nurture, educate, inform, and help our young riding talent, NOT negatively pick them apart especially just hours after an accident which could have had a very different outcome
 
I am with Chloe and totally agree with her.

A horse can help any rider but no horse can babysit a rider around a 4* or even 3* IMO. She has successfully competed at 3* with him and was going well until the fall. She is obviously talented and i just think she was really unlucky. She has a great back up team and i'm sure the likes of lucinda and yogi wouldn't have let them go round Burghley if they didn't think they were up to it. The likes of Pippa made lots of mistakes when she was younger and look at her now!

Also she is obviously very concerned for her horse, which is lovely to see, especially compared to the rider who was busy whipping the fence when his horse was still stuck in a ditch.
 
Chloe_GHE said:
We should nurture, educate, inform, and help our young riding talent, NOT negatively pick them apart especially just hours after an accident which could have had a very different outcome
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So you just say, oh dear, never mind, pretty horse, nice girl and then say how tragic when someone else does it and gets killed or kills their horse.
 
Caledonia said:
But if you read the fall as NOT being rider culpability, then how do you do that? :confused:
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My point is you should educate, support and inform young riders - get them to analyse what went wrong, how to avoid it again, what to work on to improve as a rider, and it's my belief that that POSITIVE action will help prevent it happening again in the future, and other riders can learn from it too and help avoid ever getting into that situation themelves.

This negative, witch hunt, blame apportioning attitude displayed by some in this thread does no-one any good. I think it is a peculiarly British attitude to attack and blame when things go wrong rather than sit back re-group and think 'hang on something went wrong, let's work out what, and try to stop it ever happening again'
 
Chloe_GHE said:
This negative, witch hunt, blame apportioning attitude displayed by some in this thread does no-one any good. I think it is a peculiarly British attitude to attack and blame when things go wrong rather than sit back re-group and think 'hang on something went wrong, let's work out what, and try to stop it ever happening again'
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I totally disagree with you. Who is witch hunting? I'm not.

As for 'hang on something went wrong, let's work out what, and try to stop it ever happening again', isn't that what is being done on here?
The horse ended up on the floor because of the approach and the way he'd been being ridden up to that point. If you let horses jump long and flat to get out of jail, then that's how they will continue to react.

Or do you think it was nothing to do with the way he was ridden?

ETA - why do YOU think he fell?
 
I am somewhat alarmed at several of the posts. The only reason for posting in the 1st place was to perhaps make SOME young eventers think carefully about what goes wrong before blaming the horse. If the attitude is that the horses are to blame then how will the riders ever learn what they did wrong? No amount of education will improve the situation without a change in attitude 1st.The reason for using the example of what happened to Master Monarch was that the blog was there for all H&H readers to see, it was NEVER meant to be a personal attack on this particular rider. The slanging match which ensued has somewhat defeated the purpose of my original post.
 
Caledonia I think the best thing to do is for me to bow out of this discussion with you, as we appear to be speaking at cross purposes.

I am writing generally in defense of the young riders who come under attack quite a bit on this forum especially after high profile events, and incidents. My main point is crit HAS to be constructive, education freely offered and received, and that currently isn't the norm for the equestrian community in Britain, but I believe that if self analysis, support, and knowledge sharing becomes more prolifc then falls and inappropriate riding will become less frequent leading to a safer sport.

You seem to want to disect this specifiic incident in detail, and as I wasn't there, only have the online footage from a rear angle to view, and my limited personal knowledge to draw on I don't feel I can comment on why it happened and what was to blame with any level of authority worth listening to.

*hands up* I'm out :)
 
silu said:
No amount of education will improve the situation without a change in attitude 1st.
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Do you not believe that attitudes change BECAUSE of education?...

I don't see how it can be any other way.... If I believe one thing to be right, my attitude towards that will ONLY change through education and personal learning. eg a novice rider may believe that a horse knocks a fence because it is lazy or stupid, by training them and educating them on the quality of the canter, the role of the rider in jumping, and how to properly approach a show jump only then do they realise that they were wrong to believe what they previously thought.
 
By the time young riders have reached 4* I would have imagined they would already have had a massive amount of education. Taking your point re education why is it that so many young riders continue to blame the horse when the majority of times problems occur through their lack of experience.
 
Chloe_GHE said:
Caledonia I think the best thing to do is for me to bow out of this discussion with you, as we appear to be speaking at cross purposes.

I am writing generally in defense of the young riders who come under attack quite a bit on this forum especially after high profile events, and incidents. My main point is crit HAS to be constructive, education freely offered and received, and that currently isn't the norm for the equestrian community in Britain, but I believe that if self analysis, support, and knowledge sharing becomes more prolifc then falls and inappropriate riding will become less frequent leading to a safer sport.

You seem to want to disect this specifiic incident in detail, and as I wasn't there, only have the online footage from a rear angle to view, and my limited personal knowledge to draw on I don't feel I can comment on why it happened and what was to blame with any level of authority worth listening to.

*hands up* I'm out :)
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I apologise if I'm at cross purposes with you. I wasn't aware you were generalising.

That said, there is masses of information and support out there, info is freely given at competitions, you only need to listen to top riders discussing fences with each other, and advising if they are walking courses at the same time as less experienced combinations. By the same token, criticism is part and parcel of it, it has to work both ways.
If a fence (any fence, anywhere) is ridden badly, and commented on, why is that considered witch hunting? I truly don't understand that.
The internet is a wonderful tool inasmuch one can read varying opinions and assess and discuss POVs. It's the same tool that gives riders a huge feel-good factor when all goes well. Rough with the smooth.

As I said earlier, competing internationally, in one of the showcase events of the sport does put you in the spotlight, like it or not, and, if a rider can't deal with it, they shouldn't be there.
 
Caledonia wrote " You only need to listen to top riders discussing fences with each other, and advising if they are walking courses at the same time as less experienced combinations. By the same token, criticism is part and parcel of it, it has to work both ways"

I'm sure that's what I wrote!!!!!!!! She walked it and sort after advice from top riders and trainers. She was advised to approach the fence in the way she did.... Let him roll on and attack the first element, for the long two strides to the next element. Lucinda and Yogi have been talking the fall over with her so she has the best people advising her, She does not need to have a nasty discussion on a public forum tearing her to pieces.
 
A1JUMPJOCKEY said:
Caledonia wrote " You only need to listen to top riders discussing fences with each other, and advising if they are walking courses at the same time as less experienced combinations. By the same token, criticism is part and parcel of it, it has to work both ways"

I'm sure that's what I wrote!!!!!!!! She walked it and sort after advice from top riders and trainers. She was advised to approach the fence in the way she did.... Let him roll on and attack the first element, for the long two strides to the next element. Lucinda and Yogi have been talking the fall over with her so she has the best people advising her, She does not need to have a nasty discussion on a public forum tearing her to pieces.
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Who is tearing her to pieces? And if you saw nothing wrong in her approach, then I hope to god you don't event. :confused:
 
Not a regular poster and have to admit I havent been on the forum for a while but just said I'd check in as I always find the feedback and other's opinions really interesting after big events like Burghley. Have to admit though I'm pretty appalled by some of the pretty shocking comments that others have posted on this forum.

Firstly with regards to the title and original post of this thread - what you've said could theoretically be classed as fundamentally discrimminating and ageist! Generalisation is an incredibly dangerous thing and in this instance completely unjustified and groundless. To echo other's points, the "young riders" rode some of the classiest and most polished rounds on Saturday and behaved in an extremely professional and mature manner. None showed any sign of having a bad attitude and all should be given credit for the hard work and dedication that they have demonstrated to get to this incredibly high level.

With regards to saying that the rider in question was "blaming" horse, again that is completely unjustified. There were several elements that contributed to the fall in this instance and I believe that she was completely justified in saying that the horse "didn't read" the back rail of the corner. Had he done so, it would be unlikely that he would have taken on the fence in the manner that he did. I do however agree that the fundamental cause of the fall was the high speed and lack of connection with which the rider approached the fence but the horse clearly didn't read the fence properly either. (On a side note, personally, I'm much happier that she see was riding too forward than too backward!)

Horses like humans do also make mistakes. 9 times out of ten mistakes can be apportioned to some degree of error by the rider but there are definitely instances where horses simply get it wrong too! We've all been in situations where we've met a fence just right in a showjumping arena and the horse hits the fence anyway for various reasons. Our job is to make our horse's job as easy as possible but there are instances where he/she will get it wrong too.

With regards to the singling out and defamation of a particular rider, those involved should be ashamed. I am all for objective discussion and feel that there probably are lessons to be learnt for us all from Georgie's mistake. Disecting the error and discussing what went wrong is beneficial for everyone but the discussion on this thread has gone WAY beyond that. All sense of objectivity has gone out the window and the "discussion" has become a personal attack on an individual.

None of us are perfect - even the top riders in the sport get it wrong sometimes. I've seen ALL of the big names "miss" at some point and they'll all admit that they'll probably do it again in the not so distant future. It's a dangerous sport and things will inevitabley go wrong for everyone at some point!

She made a mistake and will undoubtedly learn from it. Her back up team know her and her horse far better than any of us and so are in a far better position to judge whether they are in a position to take on a 4* track. Knowing some of the parties involved, all I can say is she's very lucky to have such wonderful support.
 
It is absolutely right that horses make mistakes just as humans do but as you so rightly say, it is the riders job to present the horse at the fence in balance, with enough power and on the correct length of stride to jump the fence safely. This art has to be learnt at a level that the horse can help out when the rider gets it wrong and the rider must take on board those near misses and learn from them. On a very good horse it is easy to gloss over those moments so the lesson isn't learnt. The broader the base, the stronger the foundation so the instincts and reactions will be better. The horse would have had to have done something extraordinary to have found room for the 2nd stride and jump the fence safely so he just took off in hope. That was his error, he should have run out but maybe that option was also not so simple without balance. He had after all been encouraged to take strides out in the Trout Hatchery. If the rider felt she was approaching the fence as she'd been advised then some help with a powerful balanced approach is required. For me this is a basic requirement of safe XC riding. She obviously has raw talent but this needs developing to ride at the top level.
 
oldvic said:
It is absolutely right that horses make mistakes just as humans do but as you so rightly say, it is the riders job to present the horse at the fence in balance, with enough power and on the correct length of stride to jump the fence safely. This art has to be learnt at a level that the horse can help out when the rider gets it wrong and the rider must take on board those near misses and learn from them. On a very good horse it is easy to gloss over those moments so the lesson isn't learnt. The broader the base, the stronger the foundation so the instincts and reactions will be better. The horse would have had to have done something extraordinary to have found room for the 2nd stride and jump the fence safely so he just took off in hope. That was his error, he should have run out but maybe that option was also not so simple without balance. He had after all been encouraged to take strides out in the Trout Hatchery. If the rider felt she was approaching the fence as she'd been advised then some help with a powerful balanced approach is required. For me this is a basic requirement of safe XC riding. She obviously has raw talent but this needs developing to ride at the top level.
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Well Said - I agree completely! It was wasn't a great round but hopefully she'll learn an awful lot from it...I certainly have!
Thanks for your well thought out, balanced, objective opinion on what happened OldVic - thats what a proper sound discussion should be based on rather than sensationalised, unjustified personal attacks
 
well all make mistakes. i did the open pony club eventing champs last month, and i got a complete misser into an sj fence and kicked. why i kicked i have no idea, and because i did my horse took off and landed on the fence, thank you safety cups!!!!! but it was my fault not his!! and because of all of this, he got a swollen knee and i had to retire on the xc course.

but, i felt like c**p after because it was my fault. my horse tried, we just had a majorly wrong stride.


i'd never blame my horse for something, but i read the post and she didnt blame him. she has no recollection of the fall, therefore she mention her horse MAY NOT have seen the back bar, not that he didnt and thats why she fell.


people have to be cracking riders to do 4*, people make the odd mistake. we all do whether its over 2ft or a 4* course, we cant just slate her for that mistake. its wrong.



she rode the rest of the course fab, well done Georgie, good luck next year! recover quickly.
 
It is very presumptuous of you EVENT RIDER to think I am "ageist" as I am under 25 myself. No doubt I will have the jealously card thrown at me once again. Obviously I'm not entitled to my own opinion on here it seems only positive comments are welcomed.
 
Caledonia said:
Who is tearing her to pieces? And if you saw nothing wrong in her approach, then I hope to god you don't event. :confused:
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Firstly, I think that was a very personal and unnecessary comment!

"She walked it and sort after advice from top riders and trainers. She was advised to approach the fence in the way she did.... Let him roll on and attack the first element, for the long two strides to the next element."

It wasn't A1JUMPJOCKEY's personal view at all, they said it is how Georgie was advised to ride the fence on the coursewalk.
 
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