Young Horse Class Rant!

Worried1

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Be warned this might be long...
The Background:
My OH has trained at the TTT since he was a Young Rider who started off as an eventer. After he lost his Intermediate horse Hatmnadu he was given the ride on a promising Westfalian gelding who showed potential as a dressage horse. He subsequently him qualified for the Nationals at Novice, Elementary (he won the Elementary title) and Medium before he was PTS sleep following a rare brain infection.
Today:
He is a freelance instructor who still regularly attends the TTT as a trainer and is lucky enough to train with Arthur Kottas, Charles De Kunfey, Stephen Clarke, Klaus and other guests. He also has a regular trainer at home who has competed to Grand Prix.
Lst year he qualified a clients horse for the 6-y-o international and national final at the College. He currently competes our advanced horse at PSG. We also have a 5-y-o stallion and a 6-y-o mare both competing Novice?Elementary and have both done a couple of National Dressage Class qualifiers.
The emphasis on his training and education has always been the welfare of the horse and also to establish the scales of training and maximise the horse's natural potential in every pace.
Here comes the moan:
We pride ourselves on never rushing our horses but instead developing natural support and self carriage. The stallion has only recently begun his competative career having een given time to develop and mature (physically and mentally since we bought him in November 05) He has been out 3 times at Novice. First time out he was 3rd at Oldencraig, he won at Merrist Wood and was fourth at Stilebridge. All comments were things like this horse a very big future or one to watch. Taking this on board we thought we would have a go at Young Horse Classes.
At Oldencaig on Friday both horses excelled themselves. The Mare was 4th in the 6-y-o class so just missed out on qualifying.
The stallion finished 5th out of 24 with an 8 for his walk and 7.8 for canter, way of going and general impression.
He then got a 6.2 for his trot because they said he was unlevel. At one point in the test he tried to break into canter and took a couple of hop steps as horses do. In know way could anyone perceive this to be unlevel - it was at most a slight loss of balance! We watched other riders whose horses fell apart in the trot on a stretch, horses whose walk was lateral and no stretch shown. Horses with fabulous trots who actually couldn't do anything else.
We were so close to qualifying that we decided to have another stab and went to Fenning Farm yesterday.
Again Bitz was stunning, see the pictures in the photo gallery. He was accurate, obdeient with 3 clear correct paces. He can walk, trot and canter and change within the pace without blowing up or falling apart. I will concede that he doesn't have the flashiest exagerated trot that some horses possess but he does have a lovely way of going. He did an even better test than the day before, more polished and presented. I really believed that today was their day and they would qualify. We were truly gutted to get a score sheets back and see flat 7's all the way through. No mention of the irreguar trot but no encouraging comments either. They said he needs to work more from behind. Take a look at the canter picture and tell me if you agree?
We watched others warm up and saw much of the same thing, horses tight in their necks with huge flicky trots that were not always doing much behind, walks which were lateral or did not track up. Canters which verged on being 4 time or with hind quarters that were 'out behind'
The inconsistency in judges marks and comments is very disapointing.
I understand that we won't always beat the big boys and girls but it is gutting that judges can't always see beyond the fashy movement. We presented a well trained and well behaved horse with ability and correct movement and didn't get a look in.
Intrestingly the 5-y-o classes were huge but entries in the 6-y-o classes were tiny - I tjust wondered where all the 6-y-o had gone?
OK rant over, I feel mch better now so thank you if you got this far. I would love to hear your comments it would make me feel better to know other people feel the same way
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Lovely horse and wow what power!
If the judge actually trains I would book a lesson no matter what your personal opinion is of her/him and see what she says..
Perhaps they can either see something you can't (which with that list of trainers I seriously doubt) or at least by working in front of them they can see whether he goes correctly in their eyes. It also gives you a chance to ask them why he got those marks!
Remember you're only going by someone's opinion, and if other judges rate him better and you feel he went as he usually does then don't ride under that judge again.
As we have struggled with a mare who does exactly what you say (almost canters but doesn't) some people can think it's unlevelness, when in reality it's wanting to canter..
I can't really offer much help as we don't compete at that level, but judges do have differing ideas, as you say, some are blinded by short necks and flashy toe action, others like S Clarke, know what's wanted..
I think your horse is lovely.....!
 
THis is the thing with young horse classes, not every horse that does well will be able to carry on to top level, because the flashiness they seem to want does not mean they can carry it on to an advanced level. They either cant collect or the flashiness was so forced it disapeers. And vica versa
Friend of mine, had a very nice german gelding, did exceptionally well at Young Horse classes, but as soon as he was taught his lateral work his movement began to go.
Still is a lovely animal, but moves nothing how he did when he was a 5 year old!
Personally i wouldnt pay to much attenton to YH classes, and wait and see how he does in actual competition.
There is a reason why the likes of Anky dont rate Young Horse classes.
x
 
Nice horse, just had a look at the pictures - with regards to the cantering one, yes your horse seems to be working from behind, however i have a pretty much identical picture of my mare from the Nationals this year and i know that she needs to work from behind and over her back more. Due to her conformation she cant do this tho! Heres the piccie of my mare:

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Dont get me wrong, im not saying the judge is correct - im just saying that you cant possibly tell from one picture whether the horse is working from behind correctly or not.

Im not a fan of the YH classes anyways as i think the horses should be trained in accordance to their ability and not pushed/rushed from such a young age. Im never going to do the YH classes with any of Bloss's young purely because i dont like rushing my horses and believe that what will be will be, you dont need a YH class to tell you whether your youngster has potential or not.
 
Lovely pic P_G and I totally agree but the pic of worrieds horse shows the horses hind leg coming up far more then in your pic. But your right you cant tell anything from one pic!
 
I realise that the canter is just one picture from the whole test and as we all know a picture can lie but I do have them on video which I will happily share. I just put up a few of the best pictures to show him off.
I know that some people are not a fan of Young Horse classes but surely with all the hype surrounding training and a horse's way of going credit should be given to horses who are working to the best of their physical and mental ability according to their age.
Our aim with Blitz is long-term, we are hoping to produce him as a horse for the future ideally to replace Hils who will soon be needing a less pressured life as he is getting on
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What a beautiful horse!!

we have had the same thing with our young horse Raubritter..

Thing is we know he hasnt got an enormous flashy trot or canter, but what he has got is good trainable paces, which are becoming more flashy as he matures.

we took him to kingswood, and came 5th, all the horses ahead of us had the big paces, but so did some we had beaten. So we took it as a great compliment to be up in the top couple in a massive class, and where really very encouraged by the fact we had almost qualified, despite looking ordinary compared to the others.

It is important to remember, that unfortunately young horse classes look for the huge paces, and that cant be changed unless all the judges decide that they will use the scales of training for the criteria of their marking, which seems to be a long way away...

I do have to say that I thought that the classes where the fei tests where used would be marked on accuracy etc aswell, so we would stand more of a chance, but unfortunately not!! lol

Dont let the comments get you down, they are there to be critical.. My friend won a qualifier with 8/9's across the board, but still had SOME negitive comments..

Hope to see you out soon!!!
 
Your horse looks very nice indeed in the photos. But it is very difficult to tell much from a moment in time. To be honest, I think the trot photo could possibly show more engagement, but it is still lovely and better than many you will see.

I would not take young horse classes very seriously if you believe your horse to be a major prospect for the future. Who cares what judges think of him now? If you think your training is correct, then keep doing what you are doing and wait till he is at PSG - at which point a lot of these uber young horses will have fallen by the wayside and correct training will out. I think the young horse tests are well written and a good test of training, but I wouldn't take the results very seriously as an indicator of which horses will succeed at the higher levels.

I'm not saying that all horses who succeed at YH classes are badly trained or pushed too hard - I'm just saying that they are not a gold seal of approval for future career of a dressage horse. At best, they are a showcase for good production of young horses by people who cannot compete at Novice/Elementary. At worst, they are a way of inflating the prices of young horses by pushing them too hard for their age or maturity.

Good luck with your lovely horse!

x
 
What a lovely horse, we are doing one a week tomorrow but ours is only a gelding and although gets 70% plus in tests we won't stand a chance but it is only down the road and its an outing.
The other horses must have been fabulous is all I can say,
Good luck for the future
 
We have a couple of horses at our yard who have qualified for 6yr old and 5yr old young horse classes and comments on the Judging has been from one extreme to the other.
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.. just to make you feel better!!!
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It is very frustrating..
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can we see your video please? If you could put it on u-tube or something??
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I am very interested to see his test.. thanks..
 
Hi!
Your horse is gorgeous!
If this is any consolation, we have been contesting the young horse classes for years (all the different ones and on a massive variety of totally different neds), and no one will convince me that the judging is consistent, by any stretch of the imagination.

We're doing the ones at myerscough and someford park, for no other reason than, you've got to be in it to win it and frankly your face might fit on the day
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Loads of the pro riders aren't for them. One said "waste of time" other said "need to take te judging with a pinch of salt"

Actually the feature on it in H&H this time is really interesting. Sorry if i've offended anyone but we've done seriously LOADS of these and i'm talking from my own experience. The 4yo I took went on to be Novice national champ as a 5yo so go figure. The 5yo went came no where really then qualified regionals in one outing with 78% and 73% so it really isn't worth losing sleep over.

Just enjoy the time you'll be stuffing the big trotters at medium
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so there you have it... take no time and push your horse to do well YH classes, and loose him for future dates.... or take your time, as you obviously have, and get results later on. we all know which is better.
out of interest, what horses have done really well YH and gone on to be top horses?
didnt primmores pride win the BYEH one? im not sure... that may have been missunderstanding.
 
YH classes have become an end in themselves not the means to an end that they should be. The breeders use these clases especially on the continent to 'showcase' their wares.
At the judge training clinic at Addington that dealt with these classes and how to look at the young horse to assess potential and what is quality and what is not was very interesting.
One point that was made by the German judge taking the clinic was that our 6yr old test was not a good test and had little to do with the progresive development a horse at this age and stage of training, like it had a mark for collection and yet there was no collecting required inreality in the test.In his opinion the 5 yr old test was much more indicative of what a young horse shoulld be doing. That may be why there were the lower numbers in the 6 yr old class.
It is a circus. The development of the paces should come with the systematic development of the horses physique through work over time ans the trot is a pace that can be 'made ' the walk and the canter are not . So more attension should be paid to the flextion of the hocks and the balance of movement in the diagonal pair in the trot and the position and use of the hock. I.e where the force of the hindleg on the floor is applied, under the body.
By forcing the young and weak horse [ all young horses sre weak interms of muscular development time is vital here] they are forced into going wide behind in lengthened paces ,crookedness and eventually damage and there fore not the long life in work that dressage is meant to develope.
The german doctor Hausman who brought about the 'roll kur' debate , is most concerned about these aspects of demands on the young horse and the over extension of the stay apparatus in the fore limb because of such work that is not supported by the hind leg carrying but hind leg pushing.
It maybe goes some way to explain why we really dont see that much of the horses that have done well in the classes.
Escapado did win the Shearwater but after this success in the 6yr old section he was not heavily competed and the good riders that produce a lot of Carls horese like Jo Barry and SpencerWilton obviously then developed him in the way he should work and along correct lines but this is one horse with the best help.
Surely these classes should offer a structure for the development of horses ? Full stop.
 
I would be wary of stating such specifics on a public forum.

It is easy to identify the rider & horse when specific placings at specific venues are posted.

Each of those classes will have an individual judge who you are identifying grievance with. If you have a problem with the standard of judging in general, then bring it up for discussion, or directly with either Stephen Clarke, if you have contact there, or Jenny LC.

If you have a question with the opinion of a particular judge, then ASK THEM. Posting on a forum will not help.

We find that all the YH judges have fairly strong opinions on what they are looking for, it is not always the same as what we believe to be priorities, but Dressage is a fairly broad Church. You will find out far more by discussing with the judge after the class
 
The point of a forum is to express your own opinion and ask for other people's feedback. Which has been very useful and encouraging.
In no way can anything I have said be interpreted as anything other than my own opinion of the events in question.
You are absolutely right that we should have asked the judges and trainers but unfortunately we were not in a position to wait all day for them to finish before approaching them with our queries and I don't think they would have appreciated us banging on the judges box mid-way through a class.
Anyone who regularly follows our progress on this site will already know the horse and so would easily be able to track results via BD if they so wished.
 
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Your horse looks very nice indeed in the photos. But it is very difficult to tell much from a moment in time. To be honest, I think the trot photo could possibly show more engagement, but it is still lovely and better than many you will see.

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I must admit I thought the same - the canter and walk piccies look fab but the trot pic is the weak one. I suppose it is only a shapshot in time and it is virtually impossible to judge from a picture, however it is the bit that the judges picked up on.

The horse is fabulous and surely it is better to peak later in his career than now. A lot of these horses are not seen again and yours has yet to have his day.
 
Why on earth do you want to do the age classes?
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Whether eventing, dressage or SJ they all seem to push a horse beyond where they should be at that age. I know they are big in Europe, but vast quantities of horses careers are ended by this!

Dressage is second only to showing for subjectivity, I've seen tests have unbelievable scores because it was a big name and the judge wouldn't DARE mark them down.

My opinion, take up show jumping if you want a fair score!!
 
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