young horse leaning on the bit

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JenniferR

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Need some helpful advice please. Young horse that I started last summer is proving tricky to get into a relaxed outline. I've spent a year hacking, light schooling, lunging, generally building up strength and trust and then a few Intro dressage competitions. I've been really pleased with her progress in many ways but ... She is forward going and sensitive to the leg and it's taken months to get her to accept enough leg contact. Now that she has turned 5 I am on a mission to get her into a better outline as she tends to rush and hollow with a high head contact when asked to do anything out of her comfort zone and at the start of a session. Now that I have started asking for more contact and to ask her to stretch down, she has taken to leaning on my hands and tipping forward. I really want to release my hands and apply much more leg but as soon as I do she starts rushing and becomes unbalanced. I seem to have replaced one fault (hollow) with a different but just as bad one (leaning)! How can I get to the point where I can apply my leg to get her off my hands but still in a balanced steady pace without rushing. Advice and tips much appreciated. I'm a reasonable rider and have lessons but I'm finding this stage tricky!
 
How was she mouthed during breaking? Was she long reining & lunged with two lines? Does she salivate well during ridden work? TBH i always prefer to start mine on two lines sometimes with a mouthing bit so i can replicate the leg and hand being there. By the time i get on they are usually already going forward into the hand.
 
i've one the same age doing the same thing at her stage of training. i'm gonna switch her to a waterford bit to see how she goes
 
Thanks Ossy for your reply. Perhaps wrongly, I didn't do much lunging as I'm not sure about lots of circles and young horse's joints. I taught her some voice commands on the lunge and then got on and went out hacking on our own over the hills working on her confidence and having a nice time on a fairly loose contact! She was a little weak looking and I didn't want to demand too much before she had the muscle for it. And to be fair she is the most amazing hack now. I can take her anywhere on her own without the slightest drama. But that is probably where the problem lies: she's uneducated in accepting a more demanding contact and bending. Should I start again and do the lunging and long-reining or have I missed the boat on this?
 
Thanks Paddi22. I was wondering about one of these bits as I had heard they were useful for leaning. She's only been doing the leaning thing for 3 weeks, so I'm going to try a few other things first though. Hoping it's just a phase and I can catch it before it becomes a habit.
 
JenniferR said:
Thanks Ossy for your reply. Perhaps wrongly, I didn't do much lunging as I'm not sure about lots of circles and young horse's joints. I taught her some voice commands on the lunge and then got on and went out hacking on our own over the hills working on her confidence and having a nice time on a fairly loose contact! She was a little weak looking and I didn't want to demand too much before she had the muscle for it. And to be fair she is the most amazing hack now. I can take her anywhere on her own without the slightest drama. But that is probably where the problem lies: she's uneducated in accepting a more demanding contact and bending. Should I start again and do the lunging and long-reining or have I missed the boat on this?
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If she is uneducated in taking a contact, softening and bending then she will go through a leaning/ learning stage, the last thing I would do is put in a waterford to discourage her taking a secure contact, once she can soften, flex and take more weight behind she will stop leaning, if you get her too light and airy she will never look to take the contact forward and down which is what you say you are trying to do, self carriage comes only once they have found the strength to take the weight more on the hind legs, obviously you want them polite but some leaning is part of the learning, strengthening process don't try and rush things at this stage if she is generally improving and beginning to understand what you want.
 
Any thoughts on how to get her to take more weight behind anyone? I think the rushing is an evasion and so is the leaning to avoid having to work from behind. Any thoughts anyone? I'm sure you will say use more leg but then she rushes and then I use my hands and then she leans!
Should I use more leg and live with the rushing? I hate over-using my hands!
 
Let her find her rhythm first, she will not progress until it is fairly established, while getting that encourage acceptance of the contact, start to get some flexion and she should start to step under more, half halts are your friend, as you ask her to go forward think half halt to reduce the inclination to rush and slow your rising, at this stage everything is an "evasion" not because they don't want to do it but because it is difficult or they don't understand so keep repeating until you know they understand and can build up the muscles required to make it easier.

Trotting up a decent hill out hacking is one of the best ways of getting them understanding how to power rather than pull.
 
can`t see the horse but it sounds like it could be a balance problem common in young horses, next thing i would try is trot to halt, halt to trot not holding at the front too much and letting it be progressive to start, when she can do that it may bring her together as she steps under into halt and starts off into trot her head will be carried rather than ploughing forwards and may help her not to lean., and could help longitudinal suppling.

also using your legs and not your hands, then your hands and not your legs in walk and trot can be softening.
 
JenniferR said:
Thanks Ossy for your reply. Perhaps wrongly, I didn't do much lunging as I'm not sure about lots of circles and young horse's joints. I taught her some voice commands on the lunge and then got on and went out hacking on our own over the hills working on her confidence and having a nice time on a fairly loose contact! She was a little weak looking and I didn't want to demand too much before she had the muscle for it. And to be fair she is the most amazing hack now. I can take her anywhere on her own without the slightest drama. But that is probably where the problem lies: she's uneducated in accepting a more demanding contact and bending. Should I start again and do the lunging and long-reining or have I missed the boat on this?
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Absolutely not missed the boat and if you use two lines you don't have to do circles all the time you have the outside rein so can take them straight too.
 
Thanks, everyone for the tips and reassurance. It's good to know that a certain amount of this is to be expected. Just don't want to spoil the little horse or make schooling a misery.
 
JenniferR said:
Any thoughts on how to get her to take more weight behind anyone? I think the rushing is an evasion and so is the leaning to avoid having to work from behind. Any thoughts anyone? I'm sure you will say use more leg but then she rushes and then I use my hands and then she leans!
Should I use more leg and live with the rushing? I hate over-using my hands!
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Transitions (teach her to listen to your seat), lots of them, including halt and half halts, circles (but not so small she falls in), serpentines etc.
And she can only lean if she has something to lean on i.e. your hands. You can teach her to relax her jaw from the ground - stand by her head, take a rein in each hand and apply light pressure. The instant she softens, lose the pressure, and do that until it becomes her conditioned response to pressure from the reins
She can only lean if she has something to lean on so for as long as she isn't strong enough to carry herself I would ride on a very loose rein, western style almost. It has the added benefit that she has to use her back more - outline will come as she gets stronger if you do the engagement exercises.
 
absolutely right, don`t make here life a misery, she should enjoy her work and then you will too.

did`nt want to say before but i agree with jillA about light contact, not exactly loose but something to reach out to with confidence, you want her to work her whole body, too strong a contact at this stage will make her break at the withers, when what you need is the power to flow through the whole horse along its back.

i would ride only on large circles so you are not blocking the forwardness which is vital for her to put herself on the bit eventually.
 
My young mare sounds exactly like yours! She is sensitive to ride, doesn't like too much leg contact but tries really hard! We had a similar issue a few months ago as I started to school more and I think it was down to her being unbalanced when taking a contact. We went back to basics, long reining and lunging getting her behind my 'leg' on the ground and really getting her bending. Have you heard of the scales of training? Sometimes you need to go back a step to go forward again, focus on her rhythm, get her supple and bending then the contact will come. Getting her supple and bending was the turning point for me, I can now get such a good bend she feels as though she is wrapped around my leg! I found when I had established a bend, picked up my outside contact and rode forward/straight through my seat we got a nice outline. We've since competed in a number of prelims and always achieving in the 60-65%, still lots to work in but feel like we are moving in the right direction! I would be really against changing her to a Waterford or a stronger bit as it sounds as though with some more flatwork and time that she will become soft again.
 
Yes, they do sound very alike! She is super sensitive to everything you do so and really tries to please but it's like riding 3 different horses at the moment and you have to change your tactics every few seconds. There is very little consistency. I guess that's young horses for you. I think you are right about establishing a better rhythmn. I had another lesson today and we worked out a rhythmn in walk and trot to aim for (slower than I would have gone for on my own). Changed her bit to a NS Verbinden with a french link and this seemed to help a bit with the leaning. I'm going to work on transitions and changes of speed within a pace while out hacking and also on bend. I have a useful book (unopened as yet!) on in-hand suppling exercises and I'm going to have a go with these.
 
JenniferR said:
Need some helpful advice please. Young horse that I started last summer is proving tricky to get into a relaxed outline. I've spent a year hacking, light schooling, lunging, generally building up strength and trust and then a few Intro dressage competitions. I've been really pleased with her progress in many ways but ... She is forward going and sensitive to the leg and it's taken months to get her to accept enough leg contact. Now that she has turned 5 I am on a mission to get her into a better outline as she tends to rush and hollow with a high head contact when asked to do anything out of her comfort zone and at the start of a session. Now that I have started asking for more contact and to ask her to stretch down, she has taken to leaning on my hands and tipping forward. I really want to release my hands and apply much more leg but as soon as I do she starts rushing and becomes unbalanced. I seem to have replaced one fault (hollow) with a different but just as bad one (leaning)! How can I get to the point where I can apply my leg to get her off my hands but still in a balanced steady pace without rushing. Advice and tips much appreciated. I'm a reasonable rider and have lessons but I'm finding this stage tricky!
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My youngster was hollow at this age, it takes a long time - a very long time - mine is now 7 and can hold a good outline in walk and trot. Be patient with her. How long would it take you to be able to lift and carry a fifth of your own weight at all paces?

Your mission is NOT to get her into an outline. It is to get her balanced - the "outline" will come with strength and balance. Firstly, are you sure she can balance effectively? Make sure the saddle is well fitted and balanced and then make sure you are well balanced and not hollow. Hollow riders make hollow horses - something I didn't appreciate until a few years ago when I got my own youngster. They show up all your bad parts!

Work on one part at a time, if she rushes when you've taken away her crutch, don't ask for faster work. Keep it in walk until she understands that to accept a light contact and if she tugs, lift the reins gently (always lift the reins in any movement) so that it acts on the corners of the mouth rather than the bars - the pressure on the bars is what makes most horses pull.

Keep up the work in walk, practice all your laterals, all your bends and flexions in walk until you feel that she can be straight on a straight line and straight on a circle - with and without contact. This will be frustrating for you because it'll take a good few months. Then start to introduce all of these principles in short bursts in trot.

In between, do cavaletti. Enjoy her! Have fun doing it and don't be in a rush. If you want some visual guidance, I watched the DVDs by Sylvia Loch - she trais a young horse in them. Also Philippe Karls DVD were helpful - a bit hard to follow at first but persevere if you get them :)
 
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Stop using your legs. your leg aid is pushing her out of balance, she will lose confidence if you keep doing that and start to not trust you.

If she is forward going she does not need pushing, you cannot push the hindlegs under the horse you will just push her more on her forehand and more out of balance.

You need to train her to answer a half halt, if you can't give immediately after a half halt then you have not ridden a proper half halt or she has not given you a proper half halt.

Teach her the half halt means take your centre of gravity back, once she has learnt this you will have a tool to rebalance whenever you need to and then when she adjust to a different balance you will be able to ride her forward again.

Never use leg and hand at the same times that is just asking for her to be confused.
 
JenniferR said:
Any thoughts on how to get her to take more weight behind anyone? I think the rushing is an evasion and so is the leaning to avoid having to work from behind. Any thoughts anyone? I'm sure you will say use more leg but then she rushes and then I use my hands and then she leans!
Should I use more leg and live with the rushing? I hate over-using my hands!
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use half halts if she is rushing so leg half halt on the outside rein slow your rise down so she can't rush she will soon learn leg means soften not rush you have to teach her she will soon get it.

using a 20 meter circle will help use your inside leg to outside rein and if she rushes rise slower, circle in and out that will help slow her down.
 
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This is where these threads can become interesting and you will get lots of conflicting advice which does not mean that one person is right and another is wrong, we are just following different systems, you just have to chose what is right for you.

Personally I would not half halt just on the outside rein, for me a half halt has to be from both reins at the same time. This way you will keep the horse straight and take the weight straight back onto the hind leg. But then I do not ride from inside leg to outside rein either, I ride from both legs to both reins but train the horse to go from inside to outside or outside leg to inside rein if I should need to to get the horse straight enough to ride from both legs to both reins.

I could go on but do not want pinkvboots to think I am having a go at them as I am not, I would not ride their way but that as I said does not mean their way is wrong we are just different.
 
That's very interesting about the half-halts. She is definitely forward going and I do think I sometimes confuse her the use of my leg as up to now this has meant go forward/change pace. I have another lesson booked for Monday and will try the half-halts as suggested under the watchful eye of my instructor. Meanwhile we shall go off hacking and having some fun this weekend over small jumps. Thank you also Tallyho for the assurances about how long this will take - that's good to know! You see some youngsters out there competing who seem to be doing everything from medium trot to jumping big SJ tracks by this age, whereas we only seem to have just started! I suppose every horse (and rider) is different.
 
As long the medium trots are balanced and the horse is working correctly from behind, that's great - nothing wrong with that if the strength building has been done and the horse is supple. I certainly couldn't achieve it with mine at 4yo unless I was out on a hack and a bus was following us :D... at 5, certainly.

You will get there in your own pace and time. There's a right time to ask for more extension and that's when you can ask the horse to lift the front more between the whithers.

I hope you find a technique that works for you and your horse :).
 
what works for me is trot to halt, then back to trot, teaching this first not putting the horse under pressure to halt abruptly, i find when they understand this they have learned to half halt without hardening the contact and hollowing because they are becoming softer in the back from doing the trot to halt and back to trot as preparation.

i think so much depends on the riders tact, riding the halts and half halts from the seat with soft arms and giving the horse plenty of time to get the idea without causing further disruption in the balance department, not being too `serious` about it all, and introducing th and ht and hh into the schooling and achieving proficiency over a couple of months.
 
Thanks, that advice about trot to halt and back again sounds like a useful idea and something I can do out on hacks. I'm also introducing a "zero tolerance" policy to rushing in trot. If she rushes, she goes back to walk. Fantastic ideas everyone. Thank you so much. Really useful.
 
Great post OP!

I am having similar issues with my 4yr old. We began schooling at the beginning of the year doing lots of large circles, serpentines, figures of eight etc. in walk then started with transitions especially trot to halt and halt to trot and lots of half holts to try encourage her behind. She responded great but now seems to have gone backwards and can't trot a circle without tripping or motorbiking around it.

In regards to contact she either seems to evade contact or lean on the bit (mostly the latter) and I often feel like I am literally holding her together. I also get told I need to 'ride her forward' into contact but it's impossible at the moment - as soon as I ride her forward she either ups the speed or gets trippy. I have decided to leave schooling for the rest of the year as I don't have facilities so come winter I wont be able to school in the field anyway. We hack out around three times a week and I do groundwork 1 day a week which I think is fine for her.

Next year I am hoping to take it back to basics and start long reining (I am also not a fan of lunging) and build her back up to light schooling.

I will definitely be returning to this thread when I start schooling again!
 
Well, progress has been made! Thanks to all who posted. Speed seems to be the key to her balance and she needs to go much slower than I ever imagined in order to find a consistent balance. She is quite a bit smaller than my previous horse and so although we seem to be not covering the ground, in fact the pace we had settled on is too fast for HER. Doing lots of half halts (both hands out hacking and outside rein on a circle) and walk trot/trot halt transitions is really helpful. Not perfect but I can see the way forward - slow every step down. What an amazing forum. Thanks for all the experienced advice.
 
JenniferR said:
Well, progress has been made! Thanks to all who posted. Speed seems to be the key to her balance and she needs to go much slower than I ever imagined in order to find a consistent balance. She is quite a bit smaller than my previous horse and so although we seem to be not covering the ground, in fact the pace we had settled on is too fast for HER. Doing lots of half halts (both hands out hacking and outside rein on a circle) and walk trot/trot halt transitions is really helpful. Not perfect but I can see the way forward - slow every step down. What an amazing forum. Thanks for all the experienced advice.
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Well done - there is sill hope for me!
 
Get someone to video you doing circles. You'll be amazed at what you see! I couldn't believe how quickly we were trotting until I saw it with my own eyes and how I was encouraging this by pinging up and down with! Good luck and keep at it. I don't have a school either but can do some schooling on hacks.
 
Hi Thanks for your really useful post. I agree about not using my leg. She's forward going and responsive and just goes faster/unbalanced if I do. I've slowed her right down using half halts and various other exercises. Just wondering about the "not using your leg as it will confuse her" advice. This makes perfect sense to me but when I took her to do an Intro dressage test this week the very respected judge commented for every movement for me to use my leg and get more energy. So now I'm wondering if I'm wrong! I was pleased with the test as she was much more balanced and shapes were better. At what point do I start using my leg and how? You say never use leg and hand at the same time - can you help me a little more with this idea please?
 
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