Young horse very slow downhill

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stimpy

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I have a green 6 year old, he was lightly backed last year, had a few months hacking work, was turned away for the winter of 2011/2012 and then came back into work in April 2012. He came to me in May 2012 and has spent the last 6 months getting out and about hacking and doing some basic schooling whilst hacking. He is generally going well, he's nice and forward, very responsive and likes to work. However, he is painfully slow going downhill. We have lots of hills here, some of them steep and he really seems to struggle going down the hills. He becomes really backwards thinking, his stride gets super-short and he sort of potters down the hill. This is worse when surface is hard, eg tarmac, gravel tracks, he's a bit better on softer ground but still hesitant. He is sound in all his gaits and tracks up well on the flat.

He is a well-built pony type and conformationally he has big forehand with a lot of action in his front legs (a bit like a driving pony). The vet and the farrier are both happy with his legs and feet, I believe that his saddle fits fine, and he is like this in both a tree'd and holistic saddle. He is *much* better if I get off and lead him downhill so I assume my weight is exacerbating the problem. However, I am very small and I don't think I am loading his forehand or generally being out of balance. Last week, whilst being a nosey parker looky-loo and not concentrating he stumbled going down a stony, not very steep track and went down on both knees :eek: but miraculously managed to get himself back up with me still in the saddle. Apart from anything else this tells me that my balance must be OK otherwise I would have bitten the dust with him kneeling with his face in the dirt :(

I bought my other horse as a 6 year old but he wasn't anything like as green so I am wondering if this just a green horse balance thing that will get better or should I be worried? Physio is the next port of call, I haven't gone down this route to date as I can't find any obvious areas of pain or stiffness.
 
How is he going down the ramp of a lorry?

This is definitely NOT what you want to hear but my big girl was finding downhill and the ramp difficult way before she started stopping when jumping. She's been trained by some very highly rated trainers both on the flat and jumping and no-one ever thought she had a problem with her feet. It was put down to rider error due to changing from my daughter to me riding her. When I eventually took her for a full work up nerve blocks showed she has some dramatic changes to both fronts and was extremely sore on both, if she hadn't been such a trouper she'd have made her objections felt far earlier.

I used to think my girl behaved as though if she were human she'd stubbed her toes and her shoes were a little bit too big so when she walked down hill her sore toes bashed into the end of her shoes.
 
*hic* said:
How is he going down the ramp of a lorry?
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He's fine down the ramp (though I have a 3.5ton lorry so the ramp is low and short). When I am not on him he seems to cope going down a slope or hill fine.

*hic* said:
This is definitely NOT what you want to hear but my big girl was finding downhill and the ramp difficult way before she started stopping when jumping. She's been trained by some very highly rated trainers both on the flat and jumping and no-one ever thought she had a problem with her feet. It was put down to rider error due to changing from my daughter to me riding her. When I eventually took her for a full work up nerve blocks showed she has some dramatic changes to both fronts and was extremely sore on both, if she hadn't been such a trouper she'd have made her objections felt far earlier.
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Nope, not what I want to hear but definitely worth knowing, thanks.
 
Again, probably not what you want to hear but my youngster always walked downhill badly, choppy stride, slightly crablike action etc and was diagnosed with arthritic hocks at the age of six. He's had his hocks medicated several times now (he's eight now) & is in full work but the biggest indicator of when they need doing again is that he starts 'crabbing' downhill again. Might be worth bearing in mind if you do decide to have it investigated. Good luck.
 
Watch the horse walking along a straight, flat surface. Is he landing heel first? Film it and slow the footage down if necessary. The symptoms you describe sound like pain in the back of the foot, which if left can often lead to navicular. Iiwy I would want to rule this out first, before Physio etc.
 
Could be heel pain. With hindsight mine had been a bit reluctant on downhills prior to going lame, and she is now much freer and more swingy down hill.

Is he shod? Mine turned out to have some negative rotation of the pedal bone, shoes have come off and she is now striding out ridden in hoof boots while her foot balance is addressed by careful trimming with the benefit of x-rays.
 
Mine was like this while as an unfit and unmuscled youngster. Just noticed recently that he is much better coming down very steep hills, starting to stride out now rather than mince down.

Get vet checks etc done for peace of mind if you like, but if all else is well, give him time to grow, muscle up and mature. Get off down steeps if you think he is very uncomfortable :)
 
pootleperkin said:
Mine was like this while as an unfit and unmuscled youngster. Just noticed recently that he is much better coming down very steep hills, starting to stride out now rather than mince down.

Get vet checks etc done for peace of mind if you like, but if all else is well, give him time to grow, muscle up and mature. Get off down steeps if you think he is very uncomfortable :)
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This first imho :) My sisters rising 4yo has just started hacking and she gets off him for the steep hills as he cannot cope with it balance wise yet - these are steep hills, he's ok on the shallower ones :)
 
I suspect this has a lot to do with age/lack of strength/lack of confidence & balance. Especially as he is fine without a riders weight on board.

I have a 17.2 , who has exceptionally long legs, he simply couldn't co-ordinate himself going down hills until recently. He is now 8, & just coming back from a year off with a fractured pedal bone, I have been pleasantly surprised to find that going down a steep hill is no longer a mixture of short steps/runs/crabbing back-end!!

I would be far more concerned if a horse that used to be OK, then started to go short downhill....that is a definite warning sign.
 
It may well be a balance issue, though my 4yo has just started hacking & would quite happily power trot down the steepest of hills :eek:. Please do check how your horse is landing, as caught early a toe first landing can be resolved before it causes terrible damage. Not trying to scare you or be pushy - but prevention is so much better than cure. Hopefully it's just a balance/strength issue, but better to be safe than sorry :).

P.s. ime vets don't always check the horse for a heel first landing, so best to do this yourself to be sure, as well as any vet checks you have done.
 
Mine always minced downhill and crabbed too. He would actually prefer to trot or canter down really steep hills and would buck when I didn't let him. He too was diagnosed at 9 with DJD in his hocks.
 
I'm not discounting the possibility of discomfort AT ALL but don't rule out that the horse may (perhaps in addition to a soundness issue) simply not understand how to go up and down steep hills comfortably with a rider on.

I had one to ride recently who DID have soundness issues - feet and hocks - BUT he also thought going up steep hills meant power up like a loony with your head in the air and down meant creep down with a stiff back and mincing steps, unless you trip/lose your nerve/get spooked, in which case leap. He simply did not know how to use himself properly and the owner's attempt to help him/keep control simply confirmed his bad habits

With careful work he got a new, much more comfortable system, which also meant he found the job easier and we were able to improve his strength and suppleness - an upward spiral! :)
 
As others have said there may be an issue. But I have ridden a few green horses who go slowly down hill due to balance, all have got better the more they do it. Its much better than having one try to run down the hill.
 
Our young heavyweight cob struggles on steep hills when I ride her. She shortens her step and slows down. However, when my instructor rides her the horse strides out confidently and in balance down the hills.

The difference between the riders is 4 stone. The cob is up to a lot of weight and I am certainly not too heavy for her but her age and lack of balance makes carrying me down hill far more tricky than someone a lot lighter.

As she has got fitter and better schooled the hills are getting easier for her, if this had not been the case I would have had a work up done.
 
Ooh, that's interesting Copperpot, mine would also much rather trot or canter downhill, particularly interesting given the similar diagnosis ours have had.
 
My 4 yo is very careful walking down anysort of a slope or hill. She has had all the ususal checks so no physical issues. Actually when I say careful careful she really takes her time walking downhill:) she did slip couple mths ago and she literally had sparks flying out of her shoes! ! She would be no where near ready for a downhill canter.
 
It is Jumpsforfun. I can only presume it hurt him going down very steel hills and he wanted them over with quickly! Unfortunately we have some very steep ones where I used to hack him! He was sure on his feet, could happily canter down the steepest of hills, although I wasn't as keen :)
 
These are all really helpful replies, thank you one and all.

My gut instinct (and hope I suppose) is that it is his baby-ness but the heel first landing theory is interesting. I shall try and get him filmed so that I can have a look. He is shod, and interestingly the farrier was here yesterday and he switched him to natural balance shoes as an experiment to see if it helped with the downhill issues.

I rode him out afterwards to check his new wheels and I have to say that I saw a pretty significant improvement. One ride is a bit early to say for definite but he seemed much more confident down hill though I didn't try the really steep hills. The most marked place was the tarmac surface coming back to the stables, it's a single track lane only about 300 yards with a horrible slippery-when-dry surface and when it's dry I usually hop off him to try to avoid him slipping. However yesterday as it was wet (naturally) I rode him down to see how he was and his stride length was much improved, far less mincey.

I do often get off and let him find his own way down the steep hills so I will continue to do this whilst riding the shallower hills with his new shoes and see how we go before doing any more investigation.

Once again, many thanks everyone, you're fab :D
 
TarrSteps said:
With careful work he got a new, much more comfortable system, which also meant he found the job easier and we were able to improve his strength and suppleness - an upward spiral! :)
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Can I ask you about the careful work TarrSteps? Did you work on anything specific/do specific exercises or was it just general work to teach him to carry himself and increase suppleness?
 
You did ask . . . ;)


This sort of thing is always a bit individual and multi-pronged but in this case it basically came down to teaching the horse to "think with his feet", solve his problems without resorting to speed (rushing is always anxiety, even in the cases where is it "desirable" anxiety), and change his posture to make those requirements easier and then hold that posture under stress.

We started with work in the school, over poles (not just trotting/canter poles, specific proprioceptive exercises) and other obstacles, convincing him to put his head right down and pick his way through, not rush. At first he was allowed all the time he needed then we gradually increased until he could trot and canter through the exercises. We also worked on his posture in general, teaching him to stretch on to the long rein and then eventually work on a loose rein, with a soft topline and looking where he was putting his feet.

We also, at this point, experimented with bitting. Because the bit had been used as brakes and he had some previous contact issues, possibly left over from racing, we went with a sidepull eventually for training purposes, as that kept him most relaxed. I would have transitioned back to a bit later but the owner is happy as is so we left it.

Next was to apply this to hacking. I went out a few times on long reins, so if he had a panic no one was in danger, starting with the loose, relaxed approach in easy areas, working up to small hills.

Then ridden work the same way, always coming back to the now more established way of going if he came off the rails, and only pushing him as he relaxed into more reasonable demands. Eventually we worked up to a very steep hill. The first few times we stopped every time he got agitated to lost his posture, had a little sit and maybe a treat, then a bit more and so on. Same going down. Initially we did long/steep hills going up, short/shallow ones going down if possible. After a few sessions he was able to walk straight up and straight down on a loose rein, although I still stopped him for a reset if he even got a bit quick.

Then we went on to working in trot over rougher ground, small hills etc, praising him when he replaxed his top line and looked where he was going instead of scrambling.

Obviously his shape and way of going changed during this time, too, which made it easier for him to build his skills. I will say even after all this, I'm still not sure this horse is suitable to be the sort of full time hack the owner wants, simply because he still has to work at something other horses do without thinking. That said, the experience has benefitted him, me and the owner no matter what happens next.

I've just done similar with another horse that is younger, did not race and is an easier temperament, although his behaviour looked almost as dramatic.. He took about 3 rides to get to the same place. :)

I grew up in a part of the world with extreme hacking. Most of the horses grew up on the terrain so it was not an issue for them but even so, people considered being a good trail horse to be a job like any other, requiring time and training. I know everyone has nodded off and rolled their eyes reading the above but I firmly believe if a horse is not "getting something", even if it's something we think they should just know, then it's worth the time and trouble to help them learn properly, not only for our own enjoyment, but for reasons of safety and soundness. It doesn't take long in the great scheme of things.
 
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TarrSteps said:
I know everyone has nodded off and rolled their eyes reading the above but I firmly believe if a horse is not "getting something", even if it's something we think they should just know, then it's worth the time and trouble to help them learn properly, not only for our own enjoyment, but for reasons of safety and soundness. It doesn't take long in the great scheme of things.
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I certainly didn't nod off, thank you for going into such detail.

My horse is, what my farrier describes as, a klutz. Very clumsy, flaps his legs around a lot. His default is that whenever things gets a bit scary/exciting/hard then the answer is ... rush, rush, rush. It's not a huge surprise because I also have his mother (though I didn't breed him) and she is a rusher too. Thankfully though, with age she has learnt to be a lot more sure-footed and her rushing is now an artifact of her very forward going nature.

The first thing I did when I got him was to teach him to stand still and wait nicely when I asked rather than swinging his quarters/stepping sideways. When under pressure he never tries to tank off as such but does whatever he can just to keep his feet moving. Except for the downhill issue where it's almost as though he doesn't seem to have the confidence to use his default response to rush and instead slows to a crawl with tiny steps.

So, it seems that if I can undo his default of rushing, and instill in him that he needs to take care where he is putting his feet this will give him to the confidence to stop rushing and will have a knock on effect of allowing him to relax about downhill work.

Good, a plan is coming together in my head :D
 
My first thought would be pelvis or hindlegs, and foot balance.

Agree with TS on the value of proprioceptive exercises using poles (going forward and backward over 1 or 2 poles, 1 hoof at a time) - also really helps horses that are bad to load and scrabble on the ramp with their hind feet. Worth a try.
 
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