young horse with grade 5 heart murmur

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mariosmummy

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I have recently taken on a 17 month old tb x Welsh sec c with a grade 2 heart murmur, he was a state when I got him and had previously been pretty much been starved. I had the vet out to do a blood test query kidney problems (came back clear luckily) but the vet has advised that his heart murmur is grade 5 not grade 2! I'm gutted and so worried about him, he was only ever going to be a happy hacker and maybe a bit of light local competing for my children now the vet has said he can NEVER be ridden, it's not the end of the world as luckily we are on a lovely yard where the owner has been so supportive and has others the kids can ride.my worry is how long I've got with Mario, he is an absolute sweetheart and all of us love him to bits, considering the start he has had he is so well natured and easy going, has anyone had any experience with severe heart murmurs? :(
 
I don't have any direct experience of this, but I went to a talk by Lesley Young, who is a vet who specialises in heart stuff in horses.

She gave an excellent talk, really easy to understand what she was saying, and if I was in your position I'd definitely be contacting her to see what she thinks in terms of a prognosis.

I know she said there are only 3 out of the 4 heart valves which tend to cause problems in a horse's heart. And she also said that some types of murmurs have greater significance than others. She let us listen to recordings of different types of murmurs, and she could identify the nature of the murmur from its rhythm/sound.

I think she said she travels the UK doing heart visits, but I may have got that wrong.

Definitely worth looking her up though. She'll tell it how it is.

Sarah
 
Thank you hun, will have a look at contacting her, just worried specialists will dismiss him as not being worth it as he's not a high value competition horse but he's our baby
 
"just worried specialists will dismiss him as not being worth it as he's not a high value competition horse"....

Forget that worry. I'm quite certain Lesley Young will be totally objective. She is very down to earth and very approachable.

Good luck.

Sarah
 
My little section A has a grade 3/4 heart murmur, picked up on vetting. We almost didn't buy her and gut instinct was to walk away. The owner had her scanned (ultrasound) and the murmur is just a teeny tiny hole in the ventricle walls which is not causing her any problems at all at the moment (and might not for many more years). She then passed the vetting for lead rein and first ridden pony. She really is a fab pony and there are no signs that this is affecting her. The plan is to keep scanning her every 18 months or so and to look out for signs of circulatory problems.
So I'd recommend getting a scan -it cost around £100, work out where the defect is and take advice from there. I've spoken to several people about heart murmurs since and they're quite common. Often the higher grade ones are more 'noisy' and can be defects in ventricle walls which cause less problems to the horse, they just sound worse.
 
I have used Lesley young before. Get her out to do a full check of the murmur, there are many types. I had a polo pony with a severe murmur but she established exactly what was wrong and objectively wrote an in depth report on her future etc, so it went from vet saying big problem to her saying actually she is fine for work and no more likely to drop dead than any other horse. She does recommend annual check ups especially of it is young so you can monitor any deterioration etc. I think it was around £250 for her to come out but well worth it IMO. Good luck.
 
Thank you, I emailed Lesley young last night and she has already got back to me! Feel a bit more positive about his prognosis and going to arrange an echocardiogram :)
 
A very high percentage of thoroughbreds have heart murmurs and often continue to compete, there's no medication that can be given for it, I can feel his murmur it's like a mobile phone vibrating
 
I had one of my horses vetted by very experienced equine vet. No mention of a heart mumour.

Few years later a very young looking vet said he had one...
 
mariosmummy said:
I have recently taken on a 17 month old tb x Welsh sec c with a grade 2 heart murmur, he was a state when I got him and had previously been pretty much been starved. I had the vet out to do a blood test query kidney problems (came back clear luckily) but the vet has advised that his heart murmur is grade 5 not grade 2! I'm gutted and so worried about him, he was only ever going to be a happy hacker and maybe a bit of light local competing for my children now the vet has said he can NEVER be ridden, it's not the end of the world as luckily we are on a lovely yard where the owner has been so supportive and has others the kids can ride.my worry is how long I've got with Mario, he is an absolute sweetheart and all of us love him to bits, considering the start he has had he is so well natured and easy going, has anyone had any experience with severe heart murmurs? :(
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saw your post the other day, but just re read... ebony developed a heart murmur while suffering from malabsorption syndrome... basically she couldn't absorb her food and so was wasting away and starving its linked to increased viscosity (thicker) blood and the heart having to work harder... the vet said that it is expected when horses are in poor/very poor condition... he was surprised it wasn't worse, but would have got better if she had... so the severity may be linked to the acute weight loss... it may get a bit better with the increased condition.
 
Mine had a grade 5 aortic murmur (problematic type) and was in full work including eventing with it. Seen by Lesley every year. He showed thickening of the ventricle walls as a 16 year old and went into atrial fibrillation for 12hours, but reverted to sinus rhythm. He was retired and PTS, but he had 16 good years

Lesley is super :)
 
mariosmummy said:
I have recently taken on a 17 month old tb x Welsh sec c with a grade 2 heart murmur, he was a state when I got him and had previously been pretty much been starved. I had the vet out to do a blood test query kidney problems (came back clear luckily) but the vet has advised that his heart murmur is grade 5 not grade 2! I'm gutted and so worried about him, he was only ever going to be a happy hacker and maybe a bit of light local competing for my children now the vet has said he can NEVER be ridden, it's not the end of the world as luckily we are on a lovely yard where the owner has been so supportive and has others the kids can ride.my worry is how long I've got with Mario, he is an absolute sweetheart and all of us love him to bits, considering the start he has had he is so well natured and easy going, has anyone had any experience with severe heart murmurs? :(
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Hi there, just seen this and wondered what has happened since? I have a 9 yr old gelding diagnosed with grade 5/6 murmur 3 years ago who is still going strong as a happy hacker..he didn't show signs of atrial fibrillation but was starting with early hypertension which has since appeared to reduce (since putting him on a heart supplement called 'Arjuna' from global herbs coincidentally). Lots of research on this supplement for use in humans, I was recommended it by another owner who's horses heart was labeled a 'disaster' by her vet, suggested PTS, I spoke to her 8 years later, he was still alive and in light work! I've found vets opinions very up and down and in some cases dismissive. Thinking of finding a Lesley Young up North nearer us in Wales for a check up on him. Did you have her out? Sorry this is so late in commenting, hope you don't mind!
 
I have heard of horses with severe heart murmurs that have recovered, one was from iron deficiency. He was in full work and pulling a competition carriage and I think he was vetted for purchase and the heart murmur was discovered. After investigation by the owners they found he was severely iron deficient, put him on a course of iron and then later had him examined again and he was fine.

Since your youngster is in poor condition it may be connected to that and might be curable.
 
PonyGalaxy said:
i have not had personal heart murmer experiences, as i would never buy a horse with a heart murmer, no matter how mild.
grade 5 is very severe, in fact, in grade 5 you can actually feel the heart murmer through the chest wall.
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My vet told me that the majority of horses have some sort of murmur. My mare did but it was low-level and certainly didn't affect her as she could out-gallop anything.
 
PonyGalaxy said:
i have not had personal heart murmer experiences, as i would never buy a horse with a heart murmer, no matter how mild.
grade 5 is very severe, in fact, in grade 5 you can actually feel the heart murmer through the chest wall.
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I bought a horse with a stage 1 heart murmur.

It goes away with work (She was 5 stage vetted when this was picked up and it went away as soon as she began to work), apparently if you have a horse with a large heart and large chest cavity it can squeak when the heart is at rest.

6 years on, no problems whatsoever. I was advised that this type of heart murmur was incredibly common.
 
Damnation said:
I bought a horse with a stage 1 heart murmur.

It goes away with work (She was 5 stage vetted when this was picked up and it went away as soon as she began to work), apparently if you have a horse with a large heart and large chest cavity it can squeak when the heart is at rest.

6 years on, no problems whatsoever. I was advised that this type of heart murmur was incredibly common.
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We also have a horse with a mild heart murmur - he is on loan so wasn't picked up on a vetting, but during a routine vaccination check. He has now done five winters hunting with the bloodhounds, including whipping-in and field-mastering, competed up to BE Novice and been to the Pony Club Open Tetrathlon Championships twice. A mild murmur definitely wouldn't put me off the right horse, although I would want to take veterinary advice.

I hope the OP gets some helpful advice and a clearer perspective of the problem from the specialist.
 
Damnation said:
I bought a horse with a stage 1 heart murmur.

It goes away with work (She was 5 stage vetted when this was picked up and it went away as soon as she began to work), apparently if you have a horse with a large heart and large chest cavity it can squeak when the heart is at rest.

6 years on, no problems whatsoever. I was advised that this type of heart murmur was incredibly common.
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Is this 2nd degree AV block that you are talking about. My horse passed two vettings with this and it wasn't detected on either vetting. It comes about when the horse is stressed and goes away when at rest. It is of no consequence to the horse other than the fact that he cannot have phenyphrine - I found this out when he had a left dorsal displacement of his colon. It can bring on a fatal arrhythmia. Luckily for him vigorous lunging and a bumpy trailer ride shrunk the spleen and his colon shifted down to where it was meant to live!
 
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applecart14 said:
Is this 2nd degree AV block that you are talking about. My horse passed two vettings with this and it wasn't detected on either vetting. It comes about when the horse is stressed and goes away when at rest. It is of no consequence to the horse other than the fact that he cannot have phenyphrine - I found this out when he had a left dorsal displacement of his colon. It can bring on a fatal arrhythmia. Luckily for him vigorous lunging and a bumpy trailer ride shrunk the spleen and his colon shifted down to where it was meant to live!
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I have no idea what the funky name for it was now (It was over 6 years ago, I'd have to dig her vetting certificate out!)

I seem to remember that the murmur was present at rest but went immediately when worked, even in walk. Vet was very unconcerned about it and passed her 5 stage vetting!
 
Damnation said:
I have no idea what the funky name for it was now (It was over 6 years ago, I'd have to dig her vetting certificate out!)

I seem to remember that the murmur was present at rest but went immediately when worked, even in walk. Vet was very unconcerned about it and passed her 5 stage vetting!
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Yes sounds like it. :)

Just bear in mind should your horse ever need trimedazine or phenylephrine I was told this shouldn't be used in horses with this condition.
 
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