Young horse with very soft mouth....but no brakes!!? Advice??

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HorseyStar

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Hello

Iv got my welsh D filly, who is 3yrs 8 months old, due to her age she is schooled bout 1-2 a week in walk trot sometimes only for 10 minutes if she's done something correctly, turn on the haunches etc I just leave it and call it a day on a good note.....she hacks out at weekends, and I long rein her just for 5 minutes down the road once a week to keep her in check with traffic etc

Iv had her since a yearling and put time into her really slowly and hands down she is my dream horse.....she is just going beautifully in the school, she is way beyond her years, loves the work, is so light and responsive and very forward going etc....

She is in a snaffle lozenge loose ring and likes it and is soft, only the las 2 times iv hacked her out the horse in front has gone for a canter, so wev followed and on BOTH occasions she has become uncontrollable, and gone from cantering to full speed gallop, almost wanting to race the horse in front!! Iv half halted, tried all our schooling techniques, sat deep, lent back half halted, everything I could think, today she went into full gallop then also was bucking at the same time, in the end I literally pulled her on each rein luckily she eventually stopped but I was disheartened as she has a lovely mouth and in the school were now at the point where she stops from a deeper seat and core with only a twitch on the reins??!

She also felt today she was leaning on my hands and definitely going overbent to avoid the bit almost as a tactic for me not to have any control or brakes?.....and was pulling me down....so I need some tips to nip this it's bud when she does it....as soon as she does it I normally put a lot of leg on and push her back up into the bridle and at the same time been vibrating the reins so there's not a fixed rein that she can lean on....

Anyone got any suggestions......to me she seems very excited and this usually happens either in the gallop field...or on the way home....when we're going out the opposite way from home she's the complete opposite, nappy nd hates to go forward!! Ha ha can't win! Lol

I know she's young bless her so I'm not over worried as she's a little star for her age, my plan was to do more hacking than schooling due to her age but she seems to settle the opposite way an prefer the arena work....

Ideas?? changing her bit to a stronger one is NOT an option as I dont believe this would solve the real problem...and her mouth is lovely! It's like the excitement kicks I. In gallop an she ignores my aids..... :(
 
I used to ride my old horse in a "double" comprising his snaffle bit but combined with a scawbrig noseband. I went from "oh *****" to "please".
 
Youngsters / green horses are like sponges sand and you are giving her the wrong things to absorb!
You said ' this usually happens either in the gallop field...or on the way home' to a youngster there should be no such thing as a gallop field as they (older horses too) just associate places with actions. If she knows that when you go in the 'gallop field' that you will go fast then she will anticipate it and her brakes will go out of the window, i would suggest keep up her. Schooling untill you know that you can control her correctly and easily in all paces in an enclosed area and although you may not want to hear this... Either find a more sensible hacking partner or make sure they don't canter off. Everything should be steady controlled and at your pace not somebody else.
 
x2 ex race rider's comments.

And something else to consider, I hack all my horses bitless. I mostly endurance ride and prefer bitless for that, either a hackamore or I have used a cross under bitless bridle as well.

It means you can haul in emergencies if needed, not recommended, but as we all know, sometimes must needs.

It also means that after many years as an endurance horse <=== still has a mouth, despite pulling like a train for the first loop his entire career.

And it is also a nice time out for my horses - no bit means "fun" time, but that dosn't mean no manners.
 
First of all make sure that you don't go at the same pace in the same place each time -what on earth is the 'gallop field'? You are teaching this youngster bad habits. Try putting her in front of her hacking partner to canter and make sure that no-one increases the pace without checking that every-one is willing and ready to do so.
 
Sorry if I sound dim or teaching to suck eggs, but you say you school her twice a week walk and trot. Has she cantered before under saddle? On another note, checked recently for wolf teeth or caps coming off making her uncomfortable?
 
I like the idea of a bitless bridle... I have used the scawbridge bitless before and can highly reccomend it... However, as for the leaning, if you decide to stay with a bit, this may be a bit contentious but what I would do is sort of gather her in so you can 'feel' the lean, let her get comfy and then slip the reins a couple of inches, just enough to make her go.... 'Oh, I didn't like that' very soon she will stop leaning. Also, change to a loose ring... It makes it much more difficult for them to lean as the bit keeps moving through the ring... Hope there's something useful there :)
 
Ha ha maybe I need to clarify myself, the gallop field is on our bridle track and called 'the gallop field' amongst locals, it is a name and I didn't say I took her on their to gallop!

Im an experienced rider, but as we do from time to time wanted some friendly advice not for ppl to scroll thru my post and 'pick' words out of it to then state that I am giving my horse wrong signals...

I'm simply asking that when another horse canters off and I either let her go behind or stop her but she does not listen and becomes strong...does anyone have any 'helpful' advice.

Thanks!
 
And yes she has cantered in the school before although I.m trying to balance her up well in walk an trot just dont see no rush for canter in the school and we normally just have a little canter on hacks, the reason I. Asked the question is she's always been fine to canter and this started only a few weeks ago, both in different scenarios, I.e. 1 was behind another horse at which she felt like she wanted to race him and get in front, the other was when she was leading at trot and I asked quietly to canter as she felt calm as soon as she did she galloped in a. Of so controlled manner, fine at first but won't listen to the aids to come back to me,which again is why I posted the question
 
Take her back onto the lunge and re-inforce voice aids - particularly WHOA! We actually don't get ON breakers until they will go from canter to halt in about 3 strides on the lunge! Then always ride with a neck strap. Practice 'WHOA' with voice aid and a pull on the neck strap, without the reins (obviously don't practice when another horse is cantering away from you!!)

And - most important - DON'T hack with riders who won't be helpful! We always hack our youngsters in front from day 1 - and then QUIETLY practice having another horse pass them WITHOUT the other horse heading off. So companion canters past and comes immediately back to trot, then once youngster is happy with this, companion canters on STEADILY and youngster is allowed to follow. If youngster gets het up, rider calls out to companion in front who stops!!
 
In addition to what's already been said, if she's getting excited you need to make it boring. Canter a few strides then trot, repeat. If she gets excited stay trotting to release the energy but not allow her to get up speed. Only when she's calm with a few strides do you increase it. And be reasonable, some horses never can take it when another horse they're out with canters off in front of them. If she's nappy on the way out and tanking on the way back, then you have a general obedience problem, its not only the slowing aids at gallop she's ignoring. If she tanks off, then when you've pulled up, immediately take her back to the place she started it and make her do walk/trot transitions all the way home from there. She will hopefully stop tanking (or at least she will do it less often) when she realises it doesn't get her home any quicker.
 
Agree with Janet George- go back to ground work and reinforce the voice aids. I personally would do a lot more long reining, in the school even, practising trot to halt transitions, turning etc.
Also if a horse was properly pissing off there is no harm in using a sharp aid to get the message through. I know of someone who's young pony spooked and went into fast canter along the road and she was too scared to pull it up because it might hurt it's mouth. Luckily nothing happened, but cantering quite fast into an oncoming car hurts the horse more!
 
That's super thanks for all your help guys! A lot of answers I know are just common sense, I'm constantly thinking logically with her, was just interested to here other people's views and ideas to add to her training, that's super, I think we'll stick with the arena for now until I feel she's 100% got everything down to a tee then take back to hacks again, it's ironic ask headin my mind due to her age more hacking rather than arena work, but il just change it up to stop her getting bored, I agree also that it is an obedience problem as she is spooky an nappy on wa out yet nothing fazes her coming home? Lol little monkey!

When another horse has canters off I do hold her back and make her stay put but the last few times because I did think I had her mouth I let her go with them and the excitement for her became to much, hence the bucking with the galloping, she defo was pleased to be heading home! Maybe iv just asked to much of her at her age, il take her back a few steps and start again

Neck strap GREAT IDEA! I do have one, not sure why I didn't even think of it!! Deeuur! Ha ha

Thankyou
 
My 4 yr old cob was a bit strong when I first got her - she was just in a thick nutcracker snaffle, but she did used to pull.

I changed her to a french link loose ring bit with copper in which she likes - and with nothing to pull against she was so much better. Now when we canter I just say trot and she does, don't even really use my reins. I also had her teeth, back saddle etc all checked so that might have coincided.
 
HorseyStar said:
And yes she has cantered in the school before although I.m trying to balance her up well in walk an trot just dont see no rush for canter in the school and we normally just have a little canter on hacks, the reason I. Asked the question is she's always been fine to canter and this started only a few weeks ago, both in different scenarios, I.e. 1 was behind another horse at which she felt like she wanted to race him and get in front, the other was when she was leading at trot and I asked quietly to canter as she felt calm as soon as she did she galloped in a. Of so controlled manner, fine at first but won't listen to the aids to come back to me,which again is why I posted the question
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Yes, and again, I apologised at the start of my post for possibly sounding like I was trying to teach sucking eggs, but as that info I was genuinely asking about wasn't posted anywhere in the original post, I only asked that first to then provide a fuller answer once I had that info.

So thankyou for clarifiying she has done canter work before, it was just a question, no need to get defensive about it as I wasn't questioning your common sense.

So, back to teeth before I'd talk about bits and hackamores and nosebands. Any wolf teeth or loose caps making her uncomfortable in her mouth at all?
 
To me Id take her out in hand with someone who can canter away with you.

When they canter away make her stay with you, whether this is by circling, backing up doing lateral steps in hand whatever. Just to start teaching her that just because another horse is running doesnt mean she has to. She should feel safe to stay with you as her herd.

Also start teaching her a one rein stop. So ask for flexion one way or the other than to yield the quarters on that side.
 
Have you had much previous experience with backing and riding very young horses? I ask because what you are describing is very common with babies and just a question of basic manners and obedience (or lack thereof) - it's not a problem, it's a normal progression if you do the things you are doing (and why experienced trainerd don't do this).
 
At this stage I'd only hack out with 1 or 2 other considerate people.
Until she is more settled don't canter towards home, always away from home, and iff possible have her in front so she doesn't race.
JG's neckstrap is really good for some horses, certainly worth a try.
 
When my horse was three and hacking. I taught him never to go if the other horse went to canter but stand and wait to be asked. After the older horse we were with decided to bolt home on main road. Any horse can gallop past or in front of mine as along as i say no he will not go jumps about abit but will not follow unless asked.To me it was very important lesson as only had one horse to go out with the bolter and now never copies any other horse on anything and has never napped towards other horses
 
Young horses don't understand, even though they have a "soft mouth." They have to learn that when you want them to stop, they stop.

If you do have a canter it needs to be very short, steady, preferably uphill, and you dictate the pace, either in front or alongsides (careful one doesn't buck or kick out).
Reinforce the rein aid with the voice and body.
 
Really simple this one, ask your friend who you hack out with, to be a real friend and bear in mind that you are on a young novice horse and could she/he stay in walk and trot until you are ready to canter and then she follows you. That way you are in control all round and there is no-one infront to chase/race. Also bucking may be due to him feeling a little unbalanced and out of control, imagine trying to sprint off with a child on your shoulders - would feel a tad wobbly
 
Aww THANKYOU so much for all your helpful comments!! There all very logical and extremely helpful!

Sorry was waffling in my start thread an wasn't very clear! Had a bad hectic day at the time! :/

Anyway yes teeth done rasped 4 weeks ago, back done 5 weeks ago...

I am experienced rider, iv retrained backed off the track Standardbreds, rode from cobsto TB's and own Welsh Section D's but my girl is the first 3 yr old iv had so suppose yes i am inexperienced in this department! Hence searching advice :)

Like I say she's a dream to school / flatwork mouth is beautiful just on hacks she gets strong and Leans lately, but going to attempt the neck strap, I already do one rein lateral supplying before and after each schooling session so she knows as soon as I slightly lift laterally to give her head to me upon which I release.... but silly to attempt that once she's in gallop! Lol.....I recon it was my fault as she's so good I forget I'm on a youngster at times and allow her to go with the others, I need to remember she's a baby and even a hack is a training session!! Can't wait to take her out again and try all the tips you have mentioned!.... For a few weeks now we will be walking and trotting and see how she feels, I do try to ride on the buckle when she relaxes, just a nitemare when she naps going out, and is prancy and forward coming home.....I'm sure we will get there, suppose most baby's have something they need to work on dont they.....hacking seems to be her worry....

The partner I picked is a lovely lady with an older wiser horse tbf she did ask me if I wanted a canter and didn't just go, and tbf it was my fault for saying yes! I think after evaluating the situation I can safely say this one is a problem I have caused myself by forgetting that hacking a 3 1/2 yr old is a training sessio. In itself! ;). Safe to say I have learnt my lesson with this one! Great learning curve for me tho! Lol

Here she is schooling, as you can see nice mouth ;)

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That sounds like the way to go.
Also please look carefully at your position in your ridden photos. You almost have a chair seat, this will not help you to use your seat and weight aids to stop her.
 
Good all checks have been done then, any discomfort ruled out from the start then.

Nothing I'd really say than keep at it and just start the hacking gradually, lots of transitions and just getting her 'thinking' about what she's being asked really. :) Very pretty mare. Only thing I would say if it was me, I'd personally lose the flash, as I don't like anything 'extra' on babies..they need to learn to soften and balance themselves before anything is added to try and solve it.
 
Brill, cheers Christmas sparkes, il try her with the flash off and see how she responds ;)

In response to your comment pearlsasinger, do you recon that it's my bad position that's making her gallop off?? Im reckoning once they bolt, weight aids go out of the window though?? Lol.....although like I say she goes beautifully and relaxed in the school?! Surely if i was riding ineffectively then it would be most highlighted when shes using herself, collecting a bit and having to carry herself....I'm thinking if it was my chair like position then surely she would be bucking * tanking in the school too?...although now you have got me worried that it may be me as a rider on top of her that's making her do this due to my seat? Never knew I sat like I was in a chair! Ha ha......but will work with my instructor and explain the position theory to her and see what she thinks...

Thanks again for the input guys! :)
 
HorseyStar said:
Brill, cheers Christmas sparkes, il try her with the flash off and see how she responds ;)

In response to your comment pearlsasinger, do you recon that it's my bad position that's making her gallop off?? Im reckoning once they bolt, weight aids go out of the window though?? Lol.....although like I say she goes beautifully and relaxed in the school?! Surely if i was riding ineffectively then it would be most highlighted when shes using herself, collecting a bit and having to carry herself....I'm thinking if it was my chair like position then surely she would be bucking * tanking in the school too?...although now you have got me worried that it may be me as a rider on top of her that's making her do this due to my seat? Never knew I sat like I was in a chair! Ha ha......but will work with my instructor and explain the position theory to her and see what she thinks...

Thanks again for the input guys! :)
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I suggest that you look carefully at your photos.

I was trying to be kind.
Your seat is poor, if the horse was removed from under you, you would NOT land on your feet, you would be flat on your a*se. Your hands could take some improvement too.
As I saidpreviously, if you were sitting properly, you would be able to influence her speed and slow/stop her with weight aids. A chair seat, such as yours, is ineffective. Please don't insult your horse by saying that she bolted, she didn't, she went faster than you were expecting because you and your hacking partner forgot that she is only 3 and expected far too much of her.
I suggest that you do indeed discuss your position with your instructor - she might be able to help you to correct it. And if she can't I suggest that you find a different instructor.
 
Why the flash on a baby with a soft mouth :(:(:(


Your position is unlikely to have caused the canter - that was the scenario you and she were in. However it isnt ideal but in the majority of saddles this is because the stirrup bars are so far forward of the deepest part of seat so your leg is drawn forward putting you in said chair position.

A lot of instructors wouldnt comment on it aside from 'lower leg back' every now and then as its so normal in most saddles now.

I do agree your arms look a little braced, would like to see more softness personally :)
 
Not at all, I was being kind in my response hun... You genuinely have made me worried that it's my position that's caused this galloping of problem, you could be very right do I THANKYOU in pointing the problem out...

Im an amateur horse owner, one that works my butt of to pay for my horses and it is simply a hobby... Im NOT Charlotte Dujardin! Lol....therefore I was merely posting to ask for advice and tips on ways of helping and a bit of horse psychogy to try and prevent it becoming an issue....I have said in previous post that i can see it was my fault for asking her to canter in the first place...

And she was asked to canter behind another horse which she has done lots of times and done it lovely, only the last 2 times something has changed, I asked her to canter a few strides, when I asked her to come back to me in to trot she decided to go faster and faster, until she became to strong to stop, ignored my aids and bolted off, sorry you wasn't there, therefore please dont say im insulting my horse by saying she bolted.......in my world when a horse does not come back to a slower gait when asked and infact goes faster and faster and gallops of it is called bolting....yes there are reasosn for it that are my error not hers but nethertheless she still bolted

I know a LOT of people even professionals, if you looked at a picture could pick it apart with 'shoulder, elbow, hip not inline' or 'feet to far back' or 'leaning forwrads' I mean really?? Really?? You really think my girl decided to gallop of cos I sit like I'm on a chair? I really do appreciate constructive criticism and i really know and accept im not a grand prox rider, literally just an amateur....I dont think you would be human if you had nothing to improve on, but c'mon really? That was an honest reason and answer for her hacking priblems??? I'm very happy with my instructor THANKYOU.

My theory is the horses way of going and how it's going is way more important initially when training a horse, looking good comes last, sometimes needs must, if all I thought about was my position when riding then I certainly wouldn't be using my brain to correct her etc.....not put the post on to insult my awful riding skills or my instructor, it was for ideas on logical ways to prevent the tanking off and ignoring my aids.

Tbh iv not been on here and asked a question for a long long long time......I now know why! :(
 
If some of that was aimed at me - apologies! Im no C.D either! However I have a very strong interest in classical riding and horsemanship in general.

Its weird how the tiny links contribute to things with horses - one thing I always remember is that horses are a reflection of us. So could it be that because she had taken off once you pre empted it, or were tense in your body so she went again? None of us can know obviously as we weren't there and arent you :)

Anyway best of luck with it.
 
Well, if you are happy with your position.............

No-one expects you to be able to ride like Charlotte Dujardin but you should aspire to be able to - and emulate her seat. I agree that a photo is just a moment in time and any of us could be caught sitting in a less than perfect position but you are sitting in the same 'chair seat' in both your ridden pics.
The horse's way of going is indeed paramount when training - and it is your seat which influences this. What else could it be? I was not actually suggesting that your position made her run away with you (rather than bolting which is widely accepted to be running off in panic) but that your position was the reason that you could not stop her easily - which I believe is what you were asking about in your OP.
 
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