Young horse with very soft mouth....but no brakes!!? Advice??

TigerTail said:
Why the flash on a baby with a soft mouth :(:(:(


Your position is unlikely to have caused the canter - that was the scenario you and she were in. However it isnt ideal but in the majority of saddles this is because the stirrup bars are so far forward of the deepest part of seat so your leg is drawn forward putting you in said chair position.

A lot of instructors wouldnt comment on it aside from 'lower leg back' every now and then as its so normal in most saddles now.

I do agree your arms look a little braced, would like to see more softness personally :)
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The is so true, every gp saddle iv had for both my gelding welsh d and my filly my legs hue felt the same, even when iv put them consciously back, iv tried doing more bareback work to help with sitting right on my seat which helped, alton I do have really long thighs And sort calves, these photos Were from summer times and I Really do hate this gp saddle but it fitted her so well, I'm now in an isabell werth dressage saddle which suits me better as a rider due to the straight cut as I ride a lot better if a ride long, almost straight, otherwise in a gp knee flaps I end up like Howard The Duck! Ha ha na...it has been my no.1 big bear tho, exact same problem on my other well, im now I a WH straight cut which I find helps my position a lot better as its not got the forward cut and stirrup bars so damn far at the front! Gggrr

And yes bit silly really re; flash as she was sent off to a pro to be traffic proofed as roads of my yard are super bad and she came back wearing it and went well with it, seemed relaxed etc so I just kept her in it although it's that loose on tightest hole it's not FDA.ly effective anyway....will take it off and see how we go.x
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Well, if you are happy with your position.............

No-one expects you to be able to ride like Charlotte Dujardin but you should aspire to be able to - and emulate her seat. I agree that a photo is just a moment in time and any of us could be caught sitting in a less than perfect position but you are sitting in the same 'chair seat' in both your ridden pics.
The horse's way of going is indeed paramount when training - and it is your seat which influences this. What else could it be? I was not actually suggesting that your position made her run away with you (rather than bolting which is widely accepted to be running off in panic) but that your position was the reason that you could not stop her easily - which I believe is what you were asking about in your OP.
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Ok wev obviously just misunderstood each other... I asked for help with strong mouth on hacks as she's so beautiful in the school, and your reply was my chair position, which is totally cool and I totally agree, I posted the pics so you ca clearly see she is relaxed, forward, happy, and can tell she's soft, and the reply I got back was a mock on my position which I felt really had nothing to do with giving me an helpful answer...

And the 2 photos are from the same day and from my old gp saddle, which I and to ride in for a certain time as saddled said it fitted her like a glove...just not me! Ha ha

Like I say I'm no pro horse owner, just one with limited funds who as had horses for years love them both to bits and had a rubbish day the she did this and was after some much needed friend advice from other fellow horsey folk :/ just got me down a bit as you genuinely panicked me that itcould be my seat had caused all her problems, and I felt like a bad horse owner that's all. A lot of what your saying is very very correct just too technical for what I'm after in regards to hacking as I feel her schooling sessions are just getting better each week albeit a lot better since changing to a DR saddle.... Although I'm still no charlotte dejurdain!!! Looool

P.s no hard feelings! X
 
TigerTail said:
If some of that was aimed at me - apologies! Im no C.D either! However I have a very strong interest in classical riding and horsemanship in general.

Its weird how the tiny links contribute to things with horses - one thing I always remember is that horses are a reflection of us. So could it be that because she had taken off once you pre empted it, or were tense in your body so she went again? None of us can know obviously as we weren't there and arent you :)

Anyway best of luck with it.
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Not at all, valid point about the flash...and very helpful comments! Criticism is a ver good thing, and we all need to accept it to progress, I totally do, but found the post about me being sat on a chair totally unhelpful * irrelevant for the question I had asked....but iv had the worst week tbf so prob being over sensitive! :)
 
To add to what has already been said, I do think the position has a huge bearing on the horses way of going. It's possible to get away with a less than perfect position, but when problems occur it should be the first thing to be examined. As you currently sit, many people manage to ride like that without having problems with stopping. But, with your horse * your position the combination will be having an effect. In an armchair seat you are sat behind the movement. The minute the horse speeds up, 99% of riders either tip their shoulders forward to catch up with the movement, * pull their hands back. Or, lean back * hands back. And with either of those, the lower leg also tends to move. One of the best bits of advice I ever had was from an old boss, who wasn't too concerned by niceties. Basically it went along the lines of 'if you ****ing cba to be in the right position yourself, why should the ****ing horse bother. And if by chance the horse does end up in the right place, how the **** would it know it was if you aren't there too?' Of course, not the politest way to put it, but its so true, * had a massive impact on my riding. I would really look into an instructor who works on that. Ime once the riders position is improved, many of the horses problems either go completely or at least are much reduced.
In addition, personally I'd skip any schooling at that age. I'd just hack with someone who will stick to walk * trot. And instead of focusing on being up into the bridle etc, I'd just work towards loose forwards paces with a consistent rythym. And once that's achieved, I'd introduce canter on hacks.
 
littlelegs said:
To add to what has already been said, I do think the position has a huge bearing on the horses way of going. It's possible to get away with a less than perfect position, but when problems occur it should be the first thing to be examined. As you currently sit, many people manage to ride like that without having problems with stopping. But, with your horse * your position the combination will be having an effect. In an armchair seat you are sat behind the movement. The minute the horse speeds up, 99% of riders either tip their shoulders forward to catch up with the movement, * pull their hands back. Or, lean back * hands back. And with either of those, the lower leg also tends to move. One of the best bits of advice I ever had was from an old boss, who wasn't too concerned by niceties. Basically it went along the lines of 'if you ****ing cba to be in the right position yourself, why should the ****ing horse bother. And if by chance the horse does end up in the right place, how the **** would it know it was if you aren't there too?' Of course, not the politest way to put it, but its so true, * had a massive impact on my riding. I would really look into an instructor who works on that. Ime once the riders position is improved, many of the horses problems either go completely or at least are much reduced.
In addition, personally I'd skip any schooling at that age. I'd just hack with someone who will stick to walk * trot. And instead of focusing on being up into the bridle etc, I'd just work towards loose forwards paces with a consistent rythym. And once that's achieved, I'd introduce canter on hacks.
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Spot on
 
littlelegs said:
'if you ****ing cba to be in the right position yourself, why should the ****ing horse bother. And if by chance the horse does end up in the right place, how the **** would it know it was if you aren't there too?'
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ll, I love that quote. I'm tempted to ask if I can use it as a sig. Except that there seems to be enough trouble with the one I've got atm.

I do wish that riders and their instructors would understand the correlation between rider positon and horse's way of going.
No offence OP, you certainly aren't the only one. I learned to ride in the dim and distant past when we concentrated on position and the horse followed.

Incidentally OP my horse can be schooled in a field in a snaffle (NS Tranz) but on a hack needs a gag type bit (NS Universal) because she is very strong. She, however, is much older than yours.
 
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Funny I've never heard of a chair seat position til on this forum someone said that about me yet when I went for a lesson with a classical dressage trainer she said I had a beautiful classical position :rolleyes:

I didn't see the pics op so I don't know if we were sitting in the same chair. Was yours a recliner or more of a bench seat. Did you have a cushion behind your back and were your feet elevated or touching the ground.

Please pm me the pics as I am fascinated to learn more about chair seat horse riding. I may start a campaign to have it at the next Olympics :cool:
 
Perhaps cached on your laptop pearl. This is what I see:

5f9649b7d6889693db14c257ce23bf6a.jpg
 
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FfionWinnie said:
Right here goes....few more pics of my gorgeous welshys, may aswell get shot down in flames...let the criticism commence on tack, bridles, saddles, leg position, seat position etc etc looool - tbf even the bravest of riders on my farm won't get on my bay welsh gelding u less they come with life insurance! He he

Right here's what I was saying earlier about how diff saddles effect your position, as my 2 I got as youngsters I have gone thru every saddle going with my fitter as they change shape so much, most are what's more comfy for my horse even if I dont like the saddle as its just temporary....

See below:

Original picture posted which is I believe called 'chair position' this is riding in an Ideal Gp Saddle with stirrup bars quite forward:-
D665A38A-1BA3-43E9-8E9F-23B76610A768-232-00000028E2DF9D8D.jpg

Same day shot but diff picture:-
99E7D57F-887F-45CE-8C09-AB0C129B9C8C-232-00000028DFD3C676.jpg


Few months after the top ones were took after shed been under saddle longer
46174C96-B7ED-4E67-92F6-4036E808B8BE-232-000000290BD061CE.jpg


Then here's my position on my other welsh D in a straight cut WH
47413442-FD4A-410E-B488-393D3113CC91-232-00000028EA416D63.jpg

And another
DEA172F1-FD9B-41E1-80A1-77C1E05F6E10-232-00000028F105908C.jpg


Me riding in my Close contact jump saddle - again forward cut, 'chair position'
90F44555-A491-4908-99A4-E8146DF4DB99-232-00000029155551B8.jpg


And again in his Fylde Jessica DR Saddle
757CEDD9-E990-4473-91E8-6C5986825753-232-00000029194FEEC3.jpg


Jump saddle
4E6DC17F-23A2-4A43-A3BA-E02CCCC483B2-232-00000028F55C693D.jpg


Position can be critiqued on all of them, just wanted to snow how saddle and peoples body dynamics effect our position....ppl are far to quick to be keyboard warriors sat behind a keyboard and judge others, would challenge the very best to come ride the Bay Welsh and stay on for longer than a 20m circle, if my. Hair seat was that bad plase believe me I wouldn't be even riding him without falling off, he's the sharpest horse onthe planet!!

But now iv made my point. Again any answers to my original Q any ideas GREATLY appreciated..

Thanks x
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Blooming lovely horses op and I still don't see the chair seat except maybe a little in the close contact jump saddle one. I do not see how it would make your mare randomly gallop off however. You look like a lovely rider from those pics.

Well done for putting them up as well, you are braver than me!
 
Wow! Those photos really do illustrate the point about the different saddles affecting position. You look much more relaxed in the saddles with the stirrup bars in the right place.
As you say youngsters need new saddles so often that it is difficult to find one every time that suits both the horse and the rider. I quite understand why you opted for fitting the horse over fitting the rider. And I fully understand your long femurs problem, both sister and I have the same. But it is a shame, as the rider's position really does affect the horse's way of going.
Thanks for posting.
 
Interestingly pearl I also have very long thighs so seems like a reoccurring theme with the alleged chair seat position name calling.

My new saddle has more length for my thighs and I think it is rather better. The other one pushed me further back in the saddle.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Blooming lovely horses op and I still don't see the chair seat except maybe a little in the close contact jump saddle one. I do not see how it would make your mare randomly gallop off however. You look like a lovely rider from those pics.

Well done for putting them up as well, you are braver than me!
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Ha ha I really don't mind criticism I. My own worst critique never happy with myself and I have LOTS that needs work al do my welshys but for amateurs who have fun and it's just an expensive hobby and can't afford many lessons, I don't think we do that bad tbf. Just very disheartening when ppl are out you as a rider have caused or possibly caused such an episode which could have become dangerous etc....and when I searched 'chair seat' on here it seemed to be a frequent attack on riders lots of keyboard warriors were commenting on ppls
Is when it really has. Or much to do with the question they were wanting 'help' with,

I accept we all do things different, specially with babies one might agree with one method and another strongly disagree, but this forum can be bloody ridicilous at times it really can. They think your a first time horse owner from a riding school just because youv posted a question.... I'm just always open to new ideas and interested in now other ppl would approach a tricky situation as I'm sure the way iv dealt Si things or scenarios I the past hasn't always been the best way, and she's such a great girl to do basic flatwork with already I'm not concerned whatsoever, it's hacking I'm trying to set straight as I did want to hack her out until 4 the. Start on her schooling, but I'm reading her as telling me she feels much happier in the arena...not all babies are the same are they, some like diff things,...I'm trying to listent to her he's I can and her interests are more important to me, I'm sure il look back at this thread in a year or two and think gosh what was all the fuss about, we're hacking out nicely alone now....well that's the plan! Lol :D x
 
Well I wouldn't have said that 'chair seat' was name calling, more a descriptive shorthand for saying,'you are sitting too much on your bum, instead of in balance on a 3-point seat, with the ear/shoulder/elbow/hip/heel in line as they should be for your horse to go correctly'.

I am still using the saddle that my mare brought with her and the stirrup bars are a llittle too far forward for comfort. However I find that if I ride a few steps standing up while warming up, when I sit back down, my legs are in a better position. Roll on some better weather, so that I can ask the saddler to come out.
 
I am also never happy with my riding and always strive to improve so the chair seat thing (and your horse is lame and why aren't you happy we pointed it out rather than you keep riding her, even though she was not lame!) actually cut me to the core and really put me off posting any more photos and def no more vids. Which is a shame really as I like seeing other folk's horses and have learned a lot from this forum but will stick to my instructor for advice and a choice few buddies I've made on here who are rather more tactful and down to earth with their comments.

Thanks for posting the pics op. Really enjoyed them and your lovely welshies, hope you get the hacking thing resolved soon. I'm sure you will.
 
FW, I don't think that I saw your photos/videos, so can't comment.

But I am often surprised by the photos that people do post on here. I wonder if they really can't see how incorrect their position is and how negatively it affects the horse. Many far worse than OP, I only commented because I thought she wanted suggestions for stopping her horse, without hauling on its soft mouth.

I always think that its a good exercise to look carefully at adverts with photos and critique the riding, just to 'get your eye in'. I am often amazed by 'for sale' photos too.
 
It wasn't a personal attack at all op. All of us have faults, sometimes ones we can get away with. Eg my worst habit was/is slipping the inside rein * then dropping my inside hand. On my pony, her natural way of going meant it had virtually no effect. However I then rode a horse where it had a huge effect, * I had to learn not to. And I then discovered how much better even mine went when I stopped. The same happens with other peoples faults, some horses you get away with it, then you ride one where your fault does have an impact. And I believe for everyone, when there is a problem the rider should be first to be corrected. The boss who used aforementioned quote said the same to people regardless of what level they were at.
 
Phone, hadn't finished. So it was said to help, not to be rude.
Pearlsasinger, you may use it! I doubt he's on here, he'd be banned for bad language on his first post.
 
It really amazes me that people thing your position has no affect on the horse! (not a dig at you op) i suggest all of the people who think position doesn't affect the horse should have their reins removed and must school their horses like that at least once... Me thinks they would alter their seat quickly! :cool:
 
ex racer rider said:
It really amazes me that people thing your position has no affect on the horse! (not a dig at you op) i suggest all of the people who think position doesn't affect the horse should have their reins removed and must school their horses like that at least once... Me thinks they would alter their seat quickly! :cool:
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Now that's why I know that it does!
I spent more of my 7 teenage yrs at RS riding without reins/stirrups than with.


Thank you, ll. When the forum punctuation is sorted out, I may well use it. It fits very nicely with my other quote which was a RI who obviously had a similar attitude, if better language.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
Now that's why I know that it does!
I spent more of my 7 teenage yrs at RS riding without reins/stirrups than with.
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Imo i think riding schools will never be to that standard again.... Health and safety has made sure of that!
I regularly ride and school in all paces without touching the reins.... They sit happily knotted on their neck, and type of horse certainly isn't an excuse.... If its do able on ex racing tb's its do able on most ;)
 
I still hear his voice many years after in my head. I remember one day riding an eventer * being screamed at for letting it pre empt the turns, so I was told to ride into the fence * wait for his order to turn. Horse had other ideas, popped the post * rail out of arena, down a drop * into a hay field. Taken by suprise * in a dressage saddle, after landing in the field, sitting out its excited bucks, * circling back to the gate, all I could hear was 'ffs, sit the **** up, you're sat like a sack of ****, no wonder its ****ing falling in'.
 
I am currently reading 'Kottas on Dressage' which has pages and pages on position. It is excellent.
I know my horse is lazy at the best of times, but I have been hollowing my back and pushing my pelvis forward. According to Kottas this blocks forwardness in the horse. I have been concious now of making sure my back isn't hollow and I am sitting on my seat bones. Any my horse is no where near as lazy. In fact I have got to the point now, that when a friend was watching me ride, the horse didn't look lazy or behind the leg, but when they got on they really struggled and ended up kicking!

Often when you see horses being naughty, i.e launching/ bucking it is because the rider is asking for forwardness while blocking it with the hands.

OP- Your position isn't that terrible btw!
 
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