Young horse with very soft mouth....but no brakes!!? Advice??

littlelegs said:
To add to what has already been said, I do think the position has a huge bearing on the horses way of going. It's possible to get away with a less than perfect position, but when problems occur it should be the first thing to be examined. As you currently sit, many people manage to ride like that without having problems with stopping. But, with your horse * your position the combination will be having an effect. In an armchair seat you are sat behind the movement. The minute the horse speeds up, 99% of riders either tip their shoulders forward to catch up with the movement, * pull their hands back. Or, lean back * hands back. And with either of those, the lower leg also tends to move. One of the best bits of advice I ever had was from an old boss, who wasn't too concerned by niceties. Basically it went along the lines of 'if you ****ing cba to be in the right position yourself, why should the ****ing horse bother. And if by chance the horse does end up in the right place, how the **** would it know it was if you aren't there too?' Of course, not the politest way to put it, but its so true, * had a massive impact on my riding. I would really look into an instructor who works on that. Ime once the riders position is improved, many of the horses problems either go completely or at least are much reduced.
In addition, personally I'd skip any schooling at that age. I'd just hack with someone who will stick to walk * trot. And instead of focusing on being up into the bridle etc, I'd just work towards loose forwards paces with a consistent rythym. And once that's achieved, I'd introduce canter on hacks.
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^^^^^ wot she said :D:D
 
Yes of course the position of the rider makes a difference but come on. Are you seriously suggesting the op's position in those pics would make her horse tank off.

My video was of my first ride on my 4 yr old who I'd had for a week. She came to me with a very fussy mouth and I was asking for help on her fussy mouth.

People suggested she was lame because of her head bobbing about constantly and when I said she is not lame I was basically made out to be a fool who couldn't spot a lame horse. Funny that every professional who saw the horse said she was sound, including in the video which was a crap phone video taken from a long way a way. So to pronounce my new horse lame and me an idiot from that video was really unfair.

Incidentally I have the horse in a hackamore now and she is a completely different horse now and my crap riding and crap saddle was clearly not affecting her fussy mouth since neither of them had changed until yesterday when I got her proper saddle (the other being a temporary one fitted by the saddler). She immediately didn't like her new saddle as it was "different". It's the sort of horse she is.

And yes probably I am a crap rider but I strive to improve and my instructor doesn't seem to think I am that crap!

Also folk took great delight on saying how on the forehand the horse was "dragging herself along" was used. Well the horse is a quarter horse, it's built down hill and it's 4 and hadn't been ridden for months!

Sorry op to have gone off on a personal rant!
 
I'm not suggesting at all ops position is making the horse tank off, * neither do I get the impression anyone else is. But, once the horse is already getting fidgety * thinking about it, as I already said, the chances are op will tip her shoulders forward to catch up, * hands back. Which will encourage the horse to continue tanking off. To make it less personal, same thing happens with other riders in other scenarios. If for example someone's fault is a lower leg too far forward, stick them on a forwards, balanced schoolmaster type, chances are the horse will stay in a reasonable rythym, even though the leg aids won't be 100% perfect. You'd probably still get nice working paces in basic exercises. Stick the person on a horse that's behind the leg, * the person will continually be moving their leg back to use it, with the likely side effect of tipping shoulders forward to compensate. And the horse will end up doing a stop/start routine. In that scenario, no the lower leg isn't making the horse not go forwards in the first place, but contributing to an already existing problem? Yes. We all have weaker areas. And sometimes we can go for years without them effecting even a range of horses. Then, you ride one where your fault exacerbates the horses weak spot.
 
FWIW I've got a sec D who I've had since backing and when doing exciting things like canter/gallop in company I have been known to apply the emergency brake, I'm not letting him learn that he can get away with that for one second they are cheeky little beggars tha knows, and 10 years later he still has a very soft mouth and I can stop him easily with my (what I'm sure on here would be considered appallingly bad) seat and even just by breathing, they are sensitive little beggars too.

....what they are also are (and I know this isn't what you asked about so forgive me) are late developers, they don't finish growing upwards until 6 or 7 and then will fill out for another year, so if it was me, and tell me to mind my own business if you want, but I'd lay off the schooling esp anything like turn on the haunches and anything strenuous until she's a fair bit older.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Yes of course the position of the rider makes a difference but come on. Are you seriously suggesting the op's position in those pics would make her horse tank off.



I didn't suggest that, I suggested that the rider's position meant that her horse did not stop when asked. IMO what made the horse tank off, was the horse in front cantering away from it.



I did not see your video so, as I said before I could not comment.






Also folk took great delight on saying how on the forehand the horse was "dragging herself along" was used. Well the horse is a quarter horse, it's built down hill and it's 4 and hadn't been ridden for months!
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You may not like it, and there obviously were good reasons for the horse being on the forehand, but those people who said that she was on the forehand were right, by your own admission. It will be your position which enables her to develop the correct musculature to change that.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
You may not like it, and there obviously were good reasons for the horse being on the forehand, but those people who said that she was on the forehand were right, by your own admission. It will be your position which enables her to develop the correct musculature to change that.
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I couldn't see that she was dragging herself around on the forehand and when I took her for a lesson with a very well recommend classical dressage trainer she said she was not on the forehand and a rather nice young horse with the potential to go as far as I wanted to.

My point is there is no need to rip folk to shreds over a couple of photos or whatever. It seems like some folk on here purposefully nitpick over photos. Clearly they are not (good) trainers because a good trainer gets their point across without making the person feel utterly miserable. I am known for my calling a spade a spade attitude and I would not speak to my students or folk who ask me online how to train a sheep dog, in the way folk come across on here.

This trainer will of course be helping me with my position because that's why I am going to her for lessons, to improve my riding, however sitting on the horse for five minutes in my video which was ripped to bits did not change her way of going that dramatically, she is what she is and the person to improve her or otherwise will be me.

The folk who are so quick to criticise others are noticeably lacking in photos of themselves riding their own horses, incidentally.
 
But FW, you described perfectly a horse on the forehand.


Well the horse is a quarter horse, it's built down hill and it's 4 and hadn't been ridden for months!


It is not so much a criticism as a statement of fact. My own horse finds it very easy to go on the forehand and was used to doing so in her previous home, where she was ridden mainly by a novice. Although why I am bothering to answer this point, I'm not sure - as I have said before I did not see your video, so did not comment.

You will be most unlikely to see photos of me - that would be beyond my technical capabilities! And I have very few photos of my riding on my computer.


If any-one asks for opinions, that is exactly what they should expect to recieve.
IMO one of the benefits of this forum is the access it gives to very knowledgeable people in all aspects of riding/horse-management. None of us knows everything. Some people would do well to remember this - and I maintain that the most influential factor in a horse's way of going is the rider's position.
 
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I never even saw your vid/thread Fw, so no idea what you're on about. Op asked for advice, I've given my honest opinion & taken the time to explain it. I haven't been rude or personal, I just stated what, imo, was a contributing factor. Whatever happened on that thread of yours is separate to what I am recommending would help op on here.
And if the comment about pics is aimed at me, that's fine too. Even if I ride like a sack of spuds, I could use pics of someone else, so that neither proves nor disproved anything. It's just my opinion & experience that position means an awful lot. You are welcome to disagree, but that doesn't mean I am just saying it to be picky or horrid, I'm not.
 
OP, may I suggest that you grow a thicker skin before posting pictures of yourself riding on here? You seem to be unrealistically sensitive to criticism. I, for one, happen NOT to think you have a"chair seat", BTW, and your carefully selected photos show a lovely young horse going softly and harmoniously. But you should be aware that a very soft mouth is often NOT a necessarily good thing and can hinder progression: a mouth can be too sensitive, and it is the job of the trainer to educate every mouth to understand and respond to the signals given. If your horse is ignoring your aids it is because they have not been sufficiently established: time to go back to the school until they are.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
That sounds like the way to go.
Also please look carefully at your position in your ridden photos. You almost have a chair seat, this will not help you to use your seat and weight aids to stop her.
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What a load of cr@p! This rider has a lovely position and if you draw a line from her ear. shoulder, hip to heel the line is almost verticle and only a tad behind the movement - and this is just a capture of a moment in time. Looking at the other pictures this is a very nice rider with a balanced independant seat.

When she is riding in the jumping saddle yes the leg is more forward, right where it should be as remember that generally in a jumping saddle you will be riding with the upper body folded forward so the line is shoulder, knee, toe.

This is a chair position
leechairseat.jpg



A horse at 3yrs old will most likely be bum high so is more than likely to be working somewhat on the forehand - just a phase they go through as they grow.
 
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I personally wouldn't hack a baby till I know iv got breaks and full control in the school. But I'm not a hacking person anyway. Have you tried hacking alone if you must do it? I was always tought to hack a young horse alone so it doesn't get nappy.
 
We've always hacked babies more than schooling work which can be hard on developing limbs in the confines of an arena.

They all had a lunge cavesson on - with a set of reins to the rings on the side of the cavesson and a lead to the person accompanying them. So basically young horse was also led until breaks firmly established.

Rider could also apply pressure to the nose with the extra set of reins so didn't need to overuse reins to bit.

LL wan't the top photo the one that had gone missing from the original post or have I miss understood the OP's comment above the picture?
 
Tnavas said:
What a load of cr@p! This rider has a lovely position and if you draw a line from her ear. shoulder, hip to heel the line is almost verticle and only a tad behind the movement - and this is just a capture of a moment in time. Looking at the other pictures this is a very nice rider with a balanced independant seat.

When she is riding in the jumping saddle yes the leg is more forward, right where it should be as remember that generally in a jumping saddle you will be riding with the upper body folded forward so the line is shoulder, knee, toe.

This is a chair position
leechairseat.jpg



A horse at 3yrs old will most likely be bum high so is more than likely to be working somewhat on the forehand - just a phase they go through as they grow.
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You may have noticed that OP and I agreed that her position changed when she was riding in a saddle with less forward stirrup bars. She said herself that her Ideal GP saddle did not fit her although the horse was very comfortable in it, which was why she used it, until she got a better one, which is what she was using in the later photos.
You may also have noticed that I said that her position could 'almost be called a chair seat'. Her ear/elbow/hip/heel line was not vertical, in fact it was not a line in the first 2 photos which she put up. Her position was nowhere near as poor as the rider in your photos.
 
littlelegs said:
I never even saw your vid/thread Fw, so no idea what you're on about. Op asked for advice, I've given my honest opinion & taken the time to explain it. I haven't been rude or personal, I just stated what, imo, was a contributing factor. Whatever happened on that thread of yours is separate to what I am recommending would help op on here.
And if the comment about pics is aimed at me, that's fine too. Even if I ride like a sack of spuds, I could use pics of someone else, so that neither proves nor disproved anything. It's just my opinion & experience that position means an awful lot. You are welcome to disagree, but that doesn't mean I am just saying it to be picky or horrid, I'm not.
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Actually you did see it littlelegs and you commented with some good advice and did not say the horse was lame/on the forehand or anything disparaging as I remember it. My comments were not aimed at you anyway.

Pearl looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I am not so much talking about people's faults more at the way some folk choose to put their opinions across on this forum.

The way my trainer explained it is that my horse will never look like an uphill warm blood dressage horse because it would be physically impossible for her even if Carl Hester himself rode her, but that does not mean she is "dragging herself around on the forehand" and it does not mean she won't be able to get her hind legs under her and work correctly. The bottom line was I was posting about her fussy mouth not her conformation. I know how a quarter horse is built and I was and am quite happy with it. I needed help with her fussy mouth which was fussy with no saddle and no rider so it was not my position causing her to be fussy in her mouth, really, she was like that before I bought her.
 
Any horse can be ridden in such a way that it develops the muscles to bring its back legs under it, that doesn't mean that it has never in its life been on the forehand. As I said my own Draft horse is built to be naturally on the forehand and had been allowed to remain so in her previous home. I ride her so that she is developing the muscles to lift her front end up, with her back end under her, as far as her conformation allows.

I'm not actually sure what we are agreeing to disagree about. I did not see or comment on your photos.

You may have noticed that my 1st comment to OP was quite gentle. I was less so after she had replied to me in a rather sharp manner. Most people will find that.
 
Now she is backed and ridden away I would turn her away to grow up she has years to learn to do the ridden thing She will come back a far nicer horse with a stronger frame and more able to carry herself so the reins are more effective. There is no rush and too many young horses are pushed too far too fast Once she has about 4 months off I would then bring her back into work by hours of long reining and hack her out with a sensible horse in walk and trot only forget schooling for a good year and you will have a far nicer horse at the end of it. No reason why eventually you cant canter out and about even jump small fences etc but leave the going round in circles until you have a happy forward thinking pony that is doing all it transitions well out and about on a hack. As to the soft mouth she needs to respect and accept the bit but not be hauled about so short reminders and half halts built into every transition will give a good mouth and and accepting outline. The path to ruination of a pony's mouth it pulling constantly or allowing the pony to lean all the time
 
littlelegs said:
Tnavas-ops original ridden pics aren't showing anymore, which are what inspired the chair seat comments.
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Yes they are Hun, I reported and put at the top (original picture chair position) I certainly agree its not the best but I was asking for comments on improving her hacking out not her schooling,

And in regards to me bei over sensitive, not at all....like I said I was asking a question about hacking and plot a load of crap about how my position and weight aids had her tacking off, and as for carefully selected, if that was the case as to what I think your implying I wouldn't have put one on of me with my arse out like a duck sat on a chair would I!! It was simply because I have no pics of her hacking out and the pic clearly shows she is relaxed and happy in the arena!!! And basically what is the world coming to when you can't post a thread withouth getting debates which are clearly not going to help with the question I asked

Anyway not arguing about it, just going to read the replys that are actually giving me ideas I can try with her I.e. neck strap, not letting her canter on the way home, asking only a few strides before stopping her, transitions, making her stay behind when another horse goes.....all valid responses & great answers which have given me more ideas to use with her!! So THANKYOU everyone that's took the time to help me with this one, I do really appreciate it. :) xx
 
I was actually trying to help, you are perfectly entitled to disagree, but there's no need to be rude or use words like 'crap' when people have tried to help. And I strongly disagree that its just hacking, not schooling. On a young horse, its a very important part of their training, so it pays to get it right.
Fw, I remember the thread now, must have kicked off after I posted hence me not remembering it earlier. And I don't always get every post via email alert.
 
littlelegs said:
I was actually trying to help, you are perfectly entitled to disagree, but there's no need to be rude or use words like 'crap' when people have tried to help. And I strongly disagree that its just hacking, not schooling. On a young horse, its a very important part of their training, so it pays to get it right.
Fw, I remember the thread now, must have kicked off after I posted hence me not remembering it earlier. And I don't always get every post via email alert.
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Sorry little legs only the first paragraph was in reply to yours,the other was in response to someone's else's rude response to me. Iv just been reading through them all.,, theres some responses iv ignored as theyve not been helpful, but there's also a lot of ppls responses which have been super and give me lots to think about! So thanks guys!

And yes the original picture I have re out back up along with a few others just to show how diff saddles have a big effect on my position (although it's not just the saddles I'm far form perfect naturally have a wee way to go before I'm happy with how I ride to have full effects on way of going etc) but like I said its a hobby & my welshy coblets are my pets and my world so don't want it turning into a pressurised thing to start worrying about my position and being picky etc as I want to just enjoy them & riding...l.just this little issue I had the last few times on a hack and wanted to know how other people would handle it that's all... If my position was horrendous then I could totally agree with the fact that it's probably what has made the horse play up on hacks, but i know I'm far far far from perfect but equally it's not an excuse for what happened, I think it was my fault due to allowing her to do it in the first place then expecting her not to do it in another Sanrio, hence I take responsibility for forgetting that hacking a baby out is also a training session! After the bolt I think I may remember that next time!! He he ;)

Thanks again for all the inputs and time taken to reply to my Q :)
 
As Cortez has already said a soft mouth can cause a problem as the 2 of you progress. I also think you should be doing more work on your transitions up and down the gears in the school, its more than likely that you beautiful little pony is a wee bit confused, and as JG has said more on the lunge to reinforce your voice aids.:)
 
Thanks for all the input guys... After much thought i have decided to turn her away 24/7 over winter untill April nxt yr! She is bum high again & i just feel it will benefit us both in the long run, shes a keeper so no rush with her anyway. My welah gelding was turned away but never did anything for him, if anything being out if work makes him worse & more a nut job! Lol but every horse is individual & with her just starting to display different behaviours under saddle the last two weeks which so far she has been an angel i feel she may be trying to say 'woa mum stop iv had enough this year now' shes a very ppl orientated horse so i just hope the turning away doesnt make her depressed. Il update this post when shes being brought back into work nxt yr with more pics & how much bigger she's prob grown!! ;)

Thankyou again guys!! Massive help & much knowledge learnt from you all

:) xx
 
Horsey Star a very good idea - think that they do need a break as they have a growth spurt and they also have time to think life over.

I'm in the process of breaking in my 4yr old - I left her completely as she was 17hh at 3 and still bum high.

She is now 17.1 at least and the front has finally caught up with the back end. I know that she will find working under saddle more comfortable and I will feel happier that I'm not damaging joints by working her too early.
 
charl.jpg


Talking of Charl DuJardin's position (backtracking much)....oh my! Her ears/shoulders/elbows/hips/heels aren't in a line! :o :o :o :p
 
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Georgia8 said:
charl.jpg


Talking of Charl DuJardin's position (backtracking much)....oh my! Her ears/shoulders/elbows/hips/heels aren't in a line! :o :o :o :p
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..... Yes they are :rolleyes: and although the common phrase includes your heel you shouldn't line your heel up rather your ankle. If you lines up your heel your leg would be too far forward (on most cases)
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
charl.jpg


Talking of Charl DuJardin's position (backtracking much)....oh my! Her ears/shoulders/elbows/hips/heels aren't in a line! :o :o :o


:p
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:confused::confused::confused:
Georgia8 said:
Not sure what you're looking at!:eek:
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Maybe she's looking at her slightly sticky outy bum?
Me wishes my bum was that toned! People forget that your ankle is IN your boot and your hip is in line with your waistband not your bott!
 
And even if she weren't sat straight, she isn't having problems schooling wise, so its irrelevant. Just like Nick skelton doesn't have a picture perfect position, yet he is good enough to jump well anyway. But, most of us aren't that good, so we do have to pay attention to our positions.
 
And now I'm even more confused because all the quotes have got mixed up!

But yes, e r r, I'll bet you're right, also CD's elbows are forwards because she is givng the reins.


T_A_ll, I'm rolling about laughing again!
 
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