Young horses

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Patrick1994

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It has been current recently about whether or not the young horse classes are putting too much pressure on producers and the impact it is having physically and mentally on the horses that are competing at this level.
But i just would like to know people's thoughts on the racing of 3 year olds and the fact that these horses are in training at the age of 2 years. Positive or negative.
The impact on welfare.
Why racing is the only discipline to allow horses to compete before the age of 4.
Does it really need these races in order to make enough money?
any opinions would be great!
 
It doesn't matter much what anyone's "thoughts~" are. Racing is a serious, big money business and I can't see much changing in the near future.

The arguments of racing v. sports horse production is that racehorses are ridden by very light riders, and generally tend to be ridden in straight lines. And on very good, well tended ground. A very immature animal will not be raced. Research has shown that horses raced as 2 year olds had stronger legs than those left for longer. Whether or not this early breaking and racing has a detrimental effect on long term soundness is a moot point. Many TBs finish their racing careers and go on to do other things, or cary on racing until 12 or so, so although there is a high drop out rate is it any more than any other group of horses?

I know of show horses that were broken and shown as 3 year olds, which went on well into their 20s so maybe it is the constitution of the individual horse that is the deciding thing.

The sports horse is likely to be broken in and ridden by a heavier rider, and schooled - in circles and with the object of developing a shape or outline suitable for the showing ring so although they won't be galloping fast, maybe overall they are doing harder work that a racehorse?
 
Yeh I think that's a good point
Are show horses shown as 3 year olds ridden? There are rules to say that it is not allowed to happen. I'm not saying you are wrong but I am actually interested to hear if you have seen this rule being broken.
I don't think I can agree that they are doing lighter work however, as galloping at high speeds can in some cases not all be extremely damaging! But everyone thinks about things differently :)
But you do make a good point of many sports horses are broken at 3 and are prepared for 4 year old classes for the following year and could be put under more pressure!!
 
Some American breeds allow 3 year olds to be ridden, although I think it is less common in the UK.
In Sweden a horse cannot go into a show ring until it is 5.
 
Orangehorse said:
Some American breeds allow 3 year olds to be ridden, although I think it is less common in the UK.
In Sweden a horse cannot go into a show ring until it is 5.
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Yeh that would make sense. That's interesting about Sweden, will try and have a look to find out why, may be they have stricter concerns over full development! Thank you :)
 
Patrick1994 said:
It has been current recently about whether or not the young horse classes are putting too much pressure on producers and the impact it is having physically and mentally on the horses that are competing at this level.
But i just would like to know people's thoughts on the racing of 3 year olds and the fact that these horses are in training at the age of 2 years. Positive or negative.
The impact on welfare.
Why racing is the only discipline to allow horses to compete before the age of 4.
Does it really need these races in order to make enough money?
any opinions would be great!
Click to expand...

Young horse classes are a mistake imo they put commercial interests first before the welfare of the horse, far too much pressure on horses. As bad as most auctions like the PSI where a lot of young horses are forced produced, primed and often ridden prematurely to get a good price. In fact young horse classes are nothing other than a glorified auction.

The horrendous wastage in the racing industry is common knowledge. Absolutely it's eeking out as much cash as quickly as possible fom the horse at the horses expense.

Lighter rider, better going (not an issue more or less the same in sport horses or even better) straight lines e.t.c don't IMO make any difference compared to the fact that race horses are asked for the absolute maximum and more (whip included) on limbs organs and endurance at an age when these things are not even in the case of for example cartilage fully developed. Sport horses are not.

I was reading the incidences of exsersise induced pulmonary haemorrhage EIPH in race horses alone. The bleeding from the lungs and airways from burst blood vessels caused by the extreme pressure of blood pumping through the body of a horse forced to over exerting itself. The Equine Veterinary Journal found haemorrhaging in the lungs in 95% of horses checked during post-race examinations. Only 1% showed bleeding from the nose. That is visible signs of EIPH.

It is so that in many other countries a horse suffering visibly from EIPH is banned for three months, the second time it's banned for life. That represents a tiny fraction because the signs have to be literally blood pumping out the nose.

The exertion demanded on young and not so young race horses is extreme. The only way to stop EIPH is to take it easier on the horse and prevent over exertion however racing doesn't permit a horse to slow down when tired instead its cracked on with the whip at the very moment it might need to stop and rather urgently.

Short bursts of not too intense exsersise are the safest, with plenty of breather time. Horses were not born to gallop at these intensities for these lengths on a race track. If you allow a wild animal to do the same for example chase them with helicopters they will drop dead. The race horse is forced to the very edge of physical destruction every time it runs. Wear and tear is extreme no question.

Gastric ulceration, between 66 and 93%. A study revealed many of these already had deep bleeding ulcers within eight weeks of starting race preparation etc etc
 
Koen said:
Young horse classes are a mistake imo they put commercial interests first before the welfare of the horse, far too much pressure on horses. As bad as most auctions like the PSI where a lot of young horses are forced produced, primed and often ridden prematurely to get a good price. In fact young horse classes are nothing other than a glorified auction.

The horrendous wastage in the racing industry is common knowledge. Absolutely it's eeking out as much cash as quickly as possible fom the horse at the horses expense.

Lighter rider, better going (not an issue more or less the same in sport horses or even better) straight lines e.t.c don't IMO make any difference compared to the fact that race horses are asked for the absolute maximum and more (whip included) on limbs organs and endurance at an age when these things are not even in the case of for example cartilage fully developed. Sport horses are not.

I was reading the incidences of exsersise induced pulmonary haemorrhage EIPH in race horses alone. The bleeding from the lungs and airways from burst blood vessels caused by the extreme pressure of blood pumping through the body of a horse forced to over exerting itself. The Equine Veterinary Journal found haemorrhaging in the lungs in 95% of horses checked during post-race examinations. Only 1% showed bleeding from the nose. That is visible signs of EIPH.

It is so that in many other countries a horse suffering visibly from EIPH is banned for three months, the second time it's banned for life. That represents a tiny fraction because the signs have to be literally blood pumping out the nose.

The exertion demanded on young and not so young race horses is extreme. The only way to stop EIPH is to take it easier on the horse and prevent over exertion however racing doesn't permit a horse to slow down when tired instead its cracked on with the whip at the very moment it might need to stop and rather urgently.

Short bursts of not too intense exsersise are the safest, with plenty of breather time. Horses were not born to gallop at these intensities for these lengths on a race track. If you allow a wild animal to do the same for example chase them with helicopters they will drop dead. The race horse is forced to the very edge of physical destruction every time it runs. Wear and tear is extreme no question.

Gastric ulceration, between 66 and 93%. A study revealed many of these already had deep bleeding ulcers within eight weeks of starting race preparation etc etc
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Hello Koen,
racing is a very emotive topic - always will be, I'd like to add a little balance to the argument here though and please note that I'm not disputing your research - I haven't researched EIPH or the like, but I do know some about training racehorses.
The point I want to make is that during the race, and also in when training, the horses are not galloping flat out all of the time, in sprint races for example, it is rare that a horse will win if it runs at maximum speed from the off - it will tire and finish down the field. The maximum effort is actually a much shorter burst of speed.
Pushing a horse to physical exhaustion is not in the interests of the horse - and if you were to look at it objectively, it's not in the interests of the trainer or the owner either. the horse needs to be at it's physical best in order to stand a chance of winning. If it is at breaking point, it's not going to win and that counteracts the whole point of having a racehorse.

Gastric Ulcers are very common in TB racehorses, this can be attributed to the fact that they do not have access to grazing in the same way that other horses do and therefore cannot trickle feed as their weight/feed is strictly managed. This is one aspect of racing that does not sit comfortably with me.

Anyway, I just wanted to add a little balance and maybe have a healthy and polite debate :)
 
Optimissteeq said:
Hello Koen,
Racing is a very emotive topic - always will be, I'd like to add a little balance to the argument here ....

This is one aspect of racing that does not sit comfortably with me.

.......I just wanted to add a little balance and maybe have a healthy and polite debate :)
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I agree and Im not being facetious but obviously no one wants their horses to burn out before they've crossed the finish line or even reached the starting gate.

It's mostly an emotive subject because people who have a vested interest feel they are being threatened by quite honestly perfectly sound facts about the horse and it's abuse. No need for PETA. Im personaly saddened but Im not a reactionary. Im saddened when I see a horse that to my eye could've been a fabulous horse end up as dog food before it's five. While others see it as having been a fabulous horse already and are churning out seven more. Its easier to see why people who might think like I do might be emotive, more chilling the ones feeling threatened.

Flat racing doesn't do it for me, the horse, the animal seems somehow secondary to the whole deal, just one or two promoted in the publics imagination or their trainers owners by winning a few times tend to be noticed. Just stand in the parade ring and watch after a horse has won, it's all about status the horse could very well be a machine, smiles all round.
I don't have any experience with training race horses or engagement in the industry beyond the odd horse taken to be trained for other diciplines and a very close relative being a zealous owner. I still however feel its possible to say with out a doubt anyone who races horses as two years old needs a sharp jolt back into reality, even three year olds at that level, high stakes races some of the most demanding.

I've just glossed through some of the "goracing The Horse Racing Ireland Website". Kid gloves firmly on this is not a pointed comment about Irish horse racing but racing in general. These words on their apparently informative web site stick in the mind, "Flat horses mature quickly and start running as 2 or 3-year-olds". Where as jumpers the same breed apparently mature later. Not saying jumpers and flat horse are bred the same neccesarily, but horses no matter what breed or even specialist within a breed all more or less mature at the same time. From giant Shires to skinny Arabs all things being equal they all mature almost fully at around about five, muscling even later.

Its easy to see how this myth originated but when does it end. A two year old should simply not be raced and a three year old only very very lightly if at all. TBs are particularly light of bone and inbred. The costs associated with sensibly bringing on young stock in a kind and sparing manner are simply too great apparently, they can't afford for a horse to get to four/five for its maiden. Why not? Less races maybe and less horses.

It's an exhaustive subject and Im not keen on long posts myself at all, in fact I hardly read them, however it takes even longer to edit and edit them down sensibly so moving rapidly on.... this statement to me sums up a lot quite nicely.

In general, treatments designed to repair a horse's injuries and to alleviate its suffering are now used to get and keep the animal out onto the track to compete - to force the animal, to make just one more effort (until it breaks irreparably?). Equine veterinary medicine has been misdirected from the art of healing to the craft of portfolio management.... Dr. G.L Ferraro Dir Centre for Equine Health Univ CA, North American Review

For details of developmental injuries try reading for example, fractures pasterns [shakes head] the jury is simply not still out http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
 
At the risk of getting castigated, I have to say I am pro racing BUT having discussed with various trainers several times, the merits of running two year olds, I am still on the fence over this particular point. I've heard pro's and cons from both sides.
Having only really dealt with the smaller training operation, personal experience has seen that very few two year olds are strenuously trained/raced. Often the bigger, slower to mature horses are given a brief education and left to mature. This is not always the case in bigger yards I know, and I can only speak about experiences in the UK.

Cost is almost certainly a huge factor in training/keeping racehorses so keeping a horse in training for 2-3 years before it even runs is expensive, and I can see why some owners would not want to do that. The answer there would be to not allow 2 year old races, so that horses don't come into training before they are 3, but then the counter arguments of the horse being at a disadvantage physically would come into play.
 
Of course it's detrimental to any horse to be racing or reining or whatever too young. It's always about the money never the actual horse. Anyone who tells you different is either thick or a liar, probably both.
 
Agree that few 2 yos race and it is only the fast maturing, sprint or miler bred ones usually. But that's because market forces in racing favour quick returns on stallions and that type of stock tends to mature faster. So the market is being driven by faster maturing types, as opposed to distance staying or NH types which mature later. Personally, I prefer watching distance races and older horses racing than yet another fast sprinter or miler, but even the Derby is now considered a long distance race and its quite hard to market a staying type of Derby winner as a stallion now.

2yos in racing are also ridden by very light people, in straight lines and don't race over more than 5 furlongs until mid summer. I've ridden 2 yos, when I worked in racing, and weak is not a word I would use to describe the ones I rode. A lot of them still go on for years, I remember finding out about one I'd ridden as a 2 yo in Ireland that someone on here had ended up with as a riding club horse!

I don't like the young horse classes and from my point of view as an amateur showjumper, I would tend to avoid buying a horse for a high price which had done a lot of big classes as a 5 and 6 yo with a professional rider which can push it, although again that's where the fashion is heading. People will pay far more for a 6 yo jumping Foxhunter than for an 11 yo doing the same thing. I think William and Pippa Funnell commented on this in H&H magazine recently and said that if they entered horses for the young horse classes, they had done less than most of the horses in the class before getting there. And don't forget that many of those in young horse classes will have been loose jumped as 2 yos and had quite a lot of flatwork schooling as 3 yos just to get there.

Another difference with racing that's easy to forget is that racehorses aren't produced with an idea to keep them working in that job for years and years. Most flat horses retire after a few seasons, and most NH horses stop at 11 or 12, but don't often start until 5 or 6 or later. A bit like most track athletes, you have more speed when you are younger. I suppose you could equally make an argument against working older horses hard and not retiring them younger, but where do you draw the line? Is working horses at all cruel and causing them damage?
 
Patrick1994 said:
It has been current recently about whether or not the young horse classes are putting too much pressure on producers and the impact it is having physically and mentally on the horses that are competing at this level.
But i just would like to know people's thoughts on the racing of 3 year olds and the fact that these horses are in training at the age of 2 years. Positive or negative.
The impact on welfare.
Why racing is the only discipline to allow horses to compete before the age of 4.
Does it really need these races in order to make enough money?
any opinions would be great!
Click to expand...

It is not just racing. The SF championships in France, October, are for three year olds. They loose jump big fences and have to be ridden and jumped over small jumps, but they are only three years old.

I start basic backing at the end of my youngsters 3rd year. Saddle, bridle, walk with rider stand for mounting block - no more.

A friend who researches young horses has found that young horses in France who have to 'perform' by the age of 6, do nothing after they win their spurs.

My first horse, purchased in 1995 was already a veteran. Now 35 years old, he still hacks out and has never given me a vet bill.
 
Rollin said:
My first horse, purchased in 1995 was already a veteran. Now 35 years old, he still hacks out and has never given me a vet bill.
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Thats quite remarkable of course.

The issue of thosands of horses having to be slaughtered after a few seasons on the track? Eat them as a certain princess would have us do? Or is this not missing the point somewhat and completely of breeding too many TB's for example, never mind Dartmoor ponies or what ever it was. I can't imagine the racing industry suddenly stopping with all medication practises so we may have a horse sandwich.

Young horse classes are all about marketing. Sport horses have become an industry. The less than savoury side a reality. Even a mare can produce at least 21 foals a year.
 
Mithras said:
that type of stock tends to mature faster. So the market is being driven by faster maturing types, as opposed to distance staying or NH types which mature later. Personally, I prefer watching distance races and older horses racing than yet another fast sprinter or miler.....

Is working horses at all cruel and causing them damage?
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With all respect the first statement simply isn't true, not only that but you can't force a horse to mature earlier either despite what those with vested interests in horse racing will have themselves and the public believe. The same with any animal us included.

When I think about it I always remember the chicken. Those painful wobbly cripple top heavy commercial "early maturing" fowl. Massive useless "bone". Most end up unable to walk. Those that do in the short time before slaughter only do because their bone has so hideously deformed to make it possible. A teetering scaffolding that only just makes it possible with a great deal of excruciating pain to hoist their heavy frame upwards. The "early maturing" chicken. What a sad mess.

Bring on the "organic, free range" horse. There will be a ready market (: And there is. There is already a back lash against some auctions and young horse classes most definately there is already and not from the so called usual suspects like welfare orgs but professional trainers and riders. Even something as simple as an "extention" is a horse meant to be more or less "made" as a youngster to carry a rider doing such!

To the supposedly "early maturing" TB's, they are a wreck after a few seasons, certainly not ideal prospects for another career. Of course there will be the anecdotal exceptions, but all round it's a waste and a big welfare issue. No doubt.

With all the care expense and attention of a dedicated team costing hundreds of thousands of pounds (in this case) it's difficult enough getting a top earner through to the end just to be used as a stud. We are meant to throw our hats in the air, cheer and celebrate when it succeeds? Or write heart wrenching anthropomorphism's about the friend and horse we ("never had" at least from the horses point of view) all 'new' and loved as a nation when it fails?


I think the very last point mentioned in the post above is something we should think about all the time. Basically the horse isn't on this earth for us to ride. It's not an automatic right, we need to ask in a thousand ways how it's possible to reduce that burden.

I wish more people realised this Im sure a lot less cruelty would be the result. We have to try and make sure that every step of the way the horse comes first and not our ambitions, greed, ego or straight out sense of our own enjoyment.
 
Koen said:
I don't have any experience with training race horses or engagement in the industry beyond the odd horse taken to be trained for other diciplines and a very close relative being a zealous owner.
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Yet you feel you are qualified to pass comment on management of horses that you have never worked with or seen?

I'm not a fan of 2yo racing particularly, but plenty of horses that raced at 2 go on to achieve. Red Rum being one prime example. As in all disciplines, some horses stand up to the work, some don't.

Racing is not alone in it's wastage. Every single equestrian sport has wastage, and the sports/riding horse industry is equally reprehensible. There was a USDA analysis done on export records of US horses going to Canada for slaughter from 2002 - 2005. Their TB industry (which is far less welfare/horse friendly orientated than the UK) was responsible for a maximum of 11%. The vast majority were were riding horses, estimated at 74%.

Racing is the ONLY equine industry that is accountable, where all animals are registered as foals, where the figures are available. Until there are equally stringent records for all other equines, it's lazy and easy to pot shot at the one industry that by being transparent leaves itself open to attack.
 
Patrick1994 said:
Are show horses shown as 3 year olds ridden? There are rules to say that it is not allowed to happen. I'm not saying you are wrong but I am actually interested to hear if you have seen this rule being broken.
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Since the horses age is taken as clocking on a year on 1st Jan for showing classes, you get a late foaled horse and yes, the horse that for showing purposes is classed as a 4 yr old can be significantly younger in real terms.

I've got a late foaled youngster and if I were to be showing her under saddle in the year she is 'allowed' to go into ridden classes as being in her 4th year, I would be competing a nearly 3 1/2 yr old.
 
I don't know enough about racing to really comment but I will sit back and watch Koen's replies with amusement, he/she loves to stir things up!!!!!
 
abracadabra said:
Embryo transfer I imagine.
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Don't bother they're too young and thick to understand what that is.

One for the a suggestion box perhaps but there should be a kiddies corner or "pony club" section. For the rest proof of credit card should used to enable membership.

It's truly impossible to have a proper conversation with whinging children demanding attention all the time.

The more you ignore them the more they drivel and scream.
 
Koen said:
Don't bother they're too young and thick to understand what that is.

One for the a suggestion box perhaps but there should be a kiddies corner or "pony club" section. For the rest proof of credit card should used to enable membership.

It's truly impossible to have a proper conversation with whinging children demanding attention all the time.

The more you ignore them the more they drivel and scream.
Click to expand...

People in glass houses.....
 
Koen said:
Don't bother they're too young and thick to understand what that is.

One for the a suggestion box perhaps but there should be a kiddies corner or "pony club" section. For the rest proof of credit card should used to enable membership.

It's truly impossible to have a proper conversation with whinging children demanding attention all the time.

The more you ignore them the more they drivel and scream.
Click to expand...

that's bit below the belt and as Patterdale said people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
 
Not everyone is in it for the money. Rare breed conservation is my retirement hobby. Our mares only foal every two years and my young Shagya stallion will NOT be doing 2x60km endurance and 3x90km endurance at the age of 6 years to comply with daft performance rules. In fact the Shagya breed society will change their rules as a result of our complaint.

According to this article, much quoted on this forum there is no such thing as a horse which is early or late maturing.

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

I have two five year old CB fillies. One born in France in March was ready to back lightly at the end of her third year. The one born in Yorkshire in June was not ready until four. CBHS stallion inspectors visiting our farm thought there was a year's difference between the two. I think the environment and pasture make a difference.

Age related competitions leave me cold. So many things contribute to the well being of a young horse.

Lots of TB's do nothing on the race track I would like to think they would have a useful future.
 
There is certainly a lot of pressure in France to get horses out and performing at a young age. We have a 14h pony on the yard at the moment who has been professionally produced and is now out and ready to start 1m20 classes in her 6yo year - but she was started at 2, had a foal, then brought back into work after weaning. And I wouldn't say she has been particularly "hot housed." She is a lovely little pony, and loves her job, but she is so enthusiastic, it would be very easy to take advantage and go too far. I worry for their legs and joints when they do so much so young.

Another thing which I find really annoying is the stallion grading (not intrinsically bad!). It is difficult to find a Mérens gelding under the age of 3, mainly due to the fact that they are a rare and endangered breed, and most breeders will put them through their grading before deciding to geld or not. The grading is carried out once a year in August, and stallions are graded at three. Not only do they have to go through a conformation assessment, but they have a ridden assessment in dressage, jumping cross country and then a driving assessment. If they do all that at 3... when do they start the training?

I think it is crazy, especially for a "late maturing" breed (and I say late maturing, because the amount they grow and bulk up between 3 and 7 years is huge!)

Although I would absolutely love to do my bit for the conservation of the breed, I'm not sure I can cross my own ethical boundary to start training so young to put them through a test, to get a license/qualification; therefore is it hypocritical of me to breed my mare - with someone elses early started stallion...?
 
JDW85 said:
In racing? Are you sure?
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Oh reel your neck in FFS, I was suggesting how more than one foal can come from one mare in a season. The thread isn't exclusively talking about racehorses and I didn't mention anything about racing, I was answering a question. Jeez.
 
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