Young mare has gotten aggressive

[AlessaPapa]

Hello to all!

I recently got my first horse,an almost 4 year old mare.
When I first went to try her she was a sweetheart.She was calm and easygoing and she did not care for whatever you were doing to her.Sometimes she got a bit antsy but that I viewed as typical as she is a baby still.
Lately she has transformed in a new horse.She will attempt to kick/bite me while I’m brushing her or putting on her blanket.She does not listen to me at all and I’m starting to get afraid of her. I won’t lie that I’m actually quite scared to even brush her at this point.Even if I try to lunge her she may try to kick me.
If that happened some time ago I would blame it on the move but now I don’t know what possible excuse I can use. The thing that has changed is that we have started working more and harder than before with a different trainer who uses a lot of treats.A couple of people have told me to just ignore her but I can’t as my safety is in sake and also I can’t tell the trainer to just stop using the treats as it’s his thing and that’s what he does with all the horses.I also do not have a close relationship with him and respect him too much just to tell him to cut it out.
While I ride her she is an angel really,I don’t know what’s happened to her..
Please help me
Sorry for the long text but it’s been a hard time.

 

[Snitch]

What’s in the treats? Maybe that is the problem?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Do you know what is in the treats? It sounds as if she could be reacting to something that she is eating, I used to have a mare who could not tolerate any cereal or refined sugar, we have also had one who could not tolerate carrots or any alfalfa (lucerne) at all. If you can't stop the trainer feeding her, you should find a new trainer.

 

[AlessaPapa]

What’s in the treats? Maybe that is the problem?

Do you know what is in the treats? It sounds as if she could be reacting to something that she is eating, I used to have a mare who could not tolerate any cereal or refined sugar, we have also had one who could not tolerate carrots or any alfalfa (lucerne) at all. If you can't stop the trainer feeding her, you should find a new trainer.

He is giving her carrots but I do not think that those are the problem because I was giving her all sorts of treat before that.She is not a super sensitive horse (has grown in land and not in preppy stables) so it has not really passed through my mind that the treats are doing it.Do you think it’s maybe the work ? Also I stopped lunging her due to the change of trainer (the previous one did very relaxed training). Maybe she is overreacting because I am just riding her 5 times a week without doing anything else (bareback,lunging etc) ? I’m really at loss.. and it’s impossible to change a trainer as those two are the only ones in my yard and the new one is actually a real professional. I don’t know what to do 😫

 

[Patterdale]

She’s trying to tell you that she’s not happy - you need to work out why.
Pain? Uncomfortable tack? Confusing signals?

What does your trainer say about it?

 

[Patterdale]

Ps - in my opinion it’s very unlikely to be the treats causing this.

 

[AlessaPapa]

She’s trying to tell you that she’s not happy - you need to work out why.
Pain? Uncomfortable tack? Confusing signals?

What does your trainer say about it?

I do not think it’s the treats either.
My trainer says that she is a baby and it is normal for her to do this.The thing is that she does not do it with him and when I tell him she does them to me he just tells me to ignore her.I know it is probably my fault because she can sense that I am afraid of her. I will try to figure out what it is but I am already excluding the tack as she has not shown any signs of discomfort while I’m riding her and the blankets fit her just fine.

 

[Bob notacob]

She’s trying to tell you that she’s not happy - you need to work out why.
Pain? Uncomfortable tack? Confusing signals?

What does your trainer say about it?

She is trying to tell you that she is the boss .She needs to be put in her place sharpish.Dominance not violence.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Why did you change to this trainer?
Is there any real reason why you can't change back to the other one?
A real professional would listen to your concerns and give you the tools to address them, being a successful rider doesn't make you a successful teacher.

 

[AlessaPapa]

Why did you change to this trainer?
Is there any real reason why you can't change back to the other one?
A real professional would listen to your concerns and give you the tools to address them, being a successful rider doesn't make you a successful teacher.

Both trainers are in my barn.The first one does not have much experience and I just felt like every time I would train I would not progress.The second one is a man with much experience in international level (rare to find that where I live) and we have really made progress with him. The trainers are not the problem,the problem is that I do not know how to gain back the respect from her. Should I free lunge her to get her moving ? I read that would help on another forum.

 

[Shay]

I don't think the treats or the trainer are the issue. Botnotacob had it right - she can sense you are afraid of her and is trying to assert her dominance over you. Mares lead the herd in the wild and some are naturally very dominant characters. Because you are afraid you are no longer a good herd leader for her and she needs to try to see if she can replace you. And actually your trainer isn't that far wrong in his comments either - you need to ignore or suitably challenge her behaviour. Making a suitable challenge is very subtle and requires split second timing so probably won't be possible for you at this point. The only remaining option is passive resistance.

Some stuff you have to address rather than ignore. If she bites when being groomed then make sure she connects with your elbow and bumps herself. Don't hit her - she has to cause the bump herself. Always wear suitable clothing and by very aware of her body language. She will always tell you before she reacts. If she challenges you when lunging use the whip as an extension of your arm (do not hit her!), voice and very strong positive body language to keep her out.

If you were in the UK I would suggest getting a good natural horsemanship type trainer to support you. That might not be possible for you. How about asking your current trainer to watch you with her from a distance and see if he can give you some tips on managing her.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

All I can say is that IME a dramatic change of behaviour like this - which includes a huge aversion to being groomed - is highly likely to have a physical (pain or discomfort) cause, eg stomach ulcers.

The mare that I knew with no physical issue, that genuinely had her owner's number and knew that she (the mare) was the one in charge was really undramatic about it. There was no kicking at the owner while lunging or anything violent at all. She would just stand, rest a leg and watch her owner fanny about pleading and begging the mare to walk on. Almost anyone with an ounce of horse sense could take the leadrope from the owner and the mare would walk for them.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

All I can say is that IME a dramatic change of behaviour like this - which includes a huge aversion to being groomed - is highly likely to have a physical (pain or discomfort) cause, eg stomach ulcers.

The mare that I knew with no physical issue, that genuinely had her owner's number and knew that she (the mare) was the one in charge was really undramatic about it. There was no kicking at the owner while lunging or anything violent at all. She would just stand, rest a leg and watch her owner fanny about pleading and begging the mare to walk on. Almost anyone with an ounce of horse sense could take the leadrope from the owner and the mare would walk for them.

Every horse I have ever known has only expended as much energy as needed to exert its authority over the herd. Only if another horse actively refuses to do as its told would a dominant mare raise the level of energy. Ime it never occurs to a horse to kick out just to avoid doing something but they will threaten/kick/bite in response to pain.

 

[tallyho!]

First don’t panic. Take a step back and look at the situation from her perspective. Yes she is still a baby. Babies tell you things in a very physical way when they are unhappy.

You say this three year old is doing five days of work each week. What kind of work are you asking her to do?

 

[windand rain]

Sounds like too much too soon if she is rising 4 she should be chilling in a field not being ridden 5 or 6 times a week but that will probably be associated with a learning problem of too much to assimilate too

 

[AlessaPapa]

She’s doing mild work (flat and some 80-90cm jumps here and there) not anything much for her.She has been worked with from a young age as her first owner was the one who had her mother and he gave her a lot of attention. She is a very excited and determined horsey so I know when she does not like doing something. We work her on her technique and she absolutely adores jumping,no pressure in anything. I conversated again today with both trainers and they told me that now that it’s raining (I live in the northern part of Greece) and it’s so cold,they don’t let her that much out in the paddock. I concluded that that is what is making her more nervous and antsy. The second trainer told me that I should have in mind that she is really young and her character is going to be changing through the years. I asked them if I should seek medical help and they both said that nothing is medically wrong with her,she just wants attention and liked to play around. I can see how that could be it because she loves running around her paddock and it has annoyed her that she can’t do that with the wintery weather and all. Shall I turn her out in our little circular lunging arena so she could get some steam off ?

 

[windand rain]

Sounds horrendous to me I dont back mine until well passed their 4th birthday they spend 24 hours a day in a paddock, horses need time to be babies and to grow up with strong bones and muscles they are not skeletally mature until at least 5 and maybe 6. My guess is your young horse has simply imploded with the work level and lack of turnout. I am of course aware that some peole do light work with them at 3 but dont usually jump or work for more than about 30 minutes a couple of days a week. Just shows how cultural differences can affect horses too

 

[teddypops]

I would get her checked over by a vet first of all, however, I bought a 2 year old who had been kept as a pet and fed lots of treats by her owners, I don’t feed treats, and every time I tried to do anything with this pony, she would bite and try to kick. She would run up to people in the field looking for treats and turn and double barrel them if she wasn’t given anything. She was the same with feed. I hated handling her as she was so aggressive and I’m very experienced. However, gradually she calmed down when she realised she didn’t get anything and she became quite a pleasant pony (still opinionated but manageable).

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I had missed that this poor mare is only 3 - and now we hear that she is not getting much turnout. No wonder she is unco-operative. Having been worked from a young age (whatever that means) doesn't make her any more likely to be benefiting from working 5 days per week. As someone above said, she would be better turned away to grow up until she is 4.

 

[tankgirl1]

Sounds like too much too soon if she is rising 4 she should be chilling in a field not being ridden 5 or 6 times a week but that will probably be associated with a learning problem of too much to assimilate too

I am 'only' a happy hacker, but I think windandrain has hit the nail on the head. Too much too soon for a baby, turn her away and let her be for a few months

 

[ester]

Lots of attention can often lead to latter problems. We have one like that who had no idea of personal space installed by the time she was 5 (homebred, then privately owned on livery since 2, essentially never corrected).

Her current lifestyle also sounds pretty rubbish for a 3 yo too,

 

[tankgirl1]

The thing that has changed is that we have started working more and harder than before

This jumped out at me

 

[spookypony]

Can I ask what your own level of experience is? Have you worked with young or green horses much? A few things are raising questions for me: 1. your horse is 3. Sounds like she's doing rather a lot just now, and is possibly physically and/or mentally overfaced. Her only way of indicating this is being narky, and you are the only one giving any impression of listening. 2. She has no appropriate turnout. Does she have much contact with other horses at your barn? I think we as a society are only just now starting to treat this as the welfare problem it is. 3. You have a new trainer, whom you find intimidating, and you don't seem to be receiving a good explanation of all the why and how in his method. He uses treats? How? I use treats, in a strictly controlled, clicker training sense, but that's miles off just handing out random carrots. Has he explained properly why he does everything he does, and taught you how to practice?

I would say, sort out the turnout problem first, possibly even by moving barns. Then shop around for trainers who have a good reputation in dealing with youngsters. If your mare is trying to kick and bite while brushing or tacking her up, you are not making real progress, international competition record of your trainer notwithstanding.

 

[tallyho!]

Is it normal to work young horses this hard in Greece, with no socialisation with other horses or turnout?

In the UK, usually 3/4yo horses are only shown basic education like how to wear tack and how to move confidently under a rider at walk. They are then usually turned away for another winter, before being shown a few more things. Maybe turned away again over winter until they are 6. Well, that's what I was taught to do and what I did with mine.

Can I ask how much of a rush are you in specifically to compete?

 

[ycbm]

I have a three year old whose maximum work at the moment is twenty minutes in a 30×40 arena twice a week. I am honestly horrified at the idea of jumping a three year old at all, never mind ridden. I realise this may be a cultural issue as you are not in the UK, but I'd be very s surprised if your mare was not trying to tell the only person who will listen (you) that her work is too much for her.

I sorry you don't have better advice to hand. Is there any possibility that you can move yards to somewhere with a more "English" point of view about work and turnout of three year olds? (for want of a better way of describing it!)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The second trainer told me that I should have in mind that she is really young and her character is going to be changing through the years.

I don't understand this. I have two adult horses that I have had from yearlings and they have the exact same temperaments/characters now as they did when young.

I asked them if I should seek medical help and they both said that nothing is medically wrong with her,she just wants attention and liked to play around.

That is just his opinion. It is not the same as a clean bill of health from a Vet after a proper veterinary workup.

Please add me to the pile of people who think that this is too much work for a three year old and that she should have more turnout with fellow equine company.

 

[Theocat]

Well, if I were you I'd move her somewhere where she can have turnout, with other horses of a similar age, for a decent amount of time every day, and for the rest of the winter, I'd just hack out a few times a week.

I would do that regardless of whether the behaviour is because she is unhappy, uncomfortable, or dominant. You need to work that out, and resolve it, but your method of keeping her (common as it is over there) is not helping.