Youngster advice please!

[anon1997]

Hi everyone,
I got a 4yo Connemara late last October who is now 5. Before I got him he had only schooled and was working well but I wasn’t keen on overdoing the schooling as he’s young and I was keen to get him out seeing the world hacking as that’s mostly what I want to do.

He responded well hacking and seemed to be enjoying it, it hasn’t been spookproof but his responses to things have been genuine and he’s been willing once reassured. He has been under and over motor way bridges, passed various types of vehicles on the road 98% of hacking has been in company with my extremely well behaved 23yo.

The last few weeks however, he has become anxious out hacking. We haven’t had anything traumatic happen but suddenly he is different. We have had saddle checked, bit checked and had teeth done so there doesn’t seem to be a major problem, but he is just not behaving the way he was. I’m not saying this because I expect him to be perfect all the time, but I am wondering where to go now for the best. When something scares him, he is 0-100 and squeals and bucks and becomes all couped up and struggles to settle. I have tried getting off him to give him confidence from the ground but nothing seems to help. Today I led him out and the same things happened. He is still being a really good boy in the school, so I don’t believe there is another issue other than he panics and gets overwhelmed.

Does anyone have any advice of where to go now? I am thinking perhaps I give him a little break from work to see if he is just overwhelmed and needs to relax a bit, but I don’t want to lose progress by resetting him.

I really want to do the best by him so all positive advice is welcome, I don’t mind being a little firm however I genuinely believe he is scared and I don’t want to make him feel any more uneasy than he already is!

Thanks x

 

[hock]

I’m firmly in the camp of treating him as genuine rather than naughty. Was he turned away when he was backed do you know as it’s amazing how much growing they do mentally in the break?

Will he lead off your other horse?

 

[anon1997]

I’m firmly in the camp of treating him as genuine rather than naughty. Was he turned away when he was backed do you know as it’s amazing how much growing they do mentally in the break?

Will he lead off your other horse?

Thank you for your reply. To be honest I’m not entirely sure, but I haven’t given him a longer break than a week or so (mainly due to winter weather) in the time I’ve had him. I’ve never had a youngster before so this is all very new to me! I haven’t tried leading him off my other horse because we have a lane with some traffic to cross, however my daughter would be able to help if I need. Thanks for the suggestion

 

[hock]

Thank you for your reply. To be honest I’m not entirely sure, but I haven’t given him a longer break than a week or so (mainly due to winter weather) in the time I’ve had him. I’ve never had a youngster before so this is all very new to me! I haven’t tried leading him off my other horse because we have a lane with some traffic to cross, however my daughter would be able to help if I need. Thanks for the suggestion

I think you came up with the best solution yourself and give him a short break. My other suggestion would be to take him back a step and long rein along with the other horse but you’d need to be pretty confident.

I’d also check his diet and totally reduce it down (hard food wise) if you decide to keep riding. I take it he has no pulses in his feet? Can you lunge him on a hard surface just to check he’s not footy baring in mind he’s fine on a surface? Not said to worry you just tick it off as fine.

 

[anon1997]

I think you came up with the best solution yourself and give him a short break. My other suggestion would be to take him back a step and long rein along with the other horse but you’d need to be pretty confident.

I’d also check his diet and totally reduce it down (hard food wise) if you decide to keep riding. I take it he has no pulses in his feet? Can you lunge him on a hard surface just to check he’s not footy baring in mind he’s fine on a surface? Not said to worry you just tick it off as fine.

He doesn’t have much hard feed at all to be honest as he was fussy about the low sugar feed I put him on! It’s pretty much a token handful at the stage but yes will take a look at his feet. Thanks for the advice!

 

[PurBee]

I’d be looking to add some magnesium, especially at this weather period time of year - british isles have had a nice warm dry period, and more recently a fair amount of rain and cooler temperatures, which will spike potassium levels in the grass, as the rain causes a growth spurt. The magnesium is temporarily a lower level in their system, with potassium hiked - basically a temporary electrolyte imbalance, which will be more pronounced in horses in regular work.

Magnesium gets metabolised during normal metabolic everyday movement processes and especially when mammals experience stress. The muscles tense, and to relax again after tensing the muscles uses magnesium, mainly. Hacking is a ‘high alert’ activity for a youngster - there’s lots to see and digest, he’s a flight animal. Your 23yr old would have been there and done it so tunes-out to most stimuli, and wouldnt have a peaked alert response to hacking, thus its far less ‘stressful’ to the oldie compared to your youngster. With you saying he schools same as usual, makes me especially think magnesium deficiency threshold has been reached, because schooling is same place, mainly same surrounding noises/movements - there’s no high alert needed, nothing new to see and hear, it’s a ‘predictable’ environment. He only has to listen to you and follow your direction.

Hyperexcitability in an otherwise calm horse always makes me first think about magnesium levels. Muscle twitching is another visual sign to watch for, especially after exercise - its usually the shoulders you’ll see twitch, upper front leg muscle area, just like they’re twitching-off a fly, except there will be no flies landing where they twitch. They also twitch the curved area above the rear stifle joint, just in the crease below their flank. This twitching has to be witnessed while they are at rest just after exercise, while standing eating hay for example, to warrant a suspicion of hypomagnesium. Stand around for a few minutes watching him after exercise. Dont touch or engage with him, just watch for small muscle twitches, without flies. If you see this grab the magnesium. I’ve witnessed this in mine combined with hyper-excitability and its always coincided with days of a deluge of rain and grass growth spike.

Temporary electrolyte imbalances are more common when the weather shifts, as grazing values of electrolytes shift too. Your is in work so make sure there’s enough sodium in his diet too.

I’d add a heaped desert spoon of mag. Oxide daily to some damp chaff or speedibeet, see how he does. It’s usually fairly fast-acting if it is a deficiency. 12hrs.

We’ve had torrential rains here in west ireland recent past few weeks, and despite mine being on low maintenance dose magnesium, they hit the threshold, and i noticed their alert and spook factor rise - the grass has grown fast. Deep green grass has decent magnesium in it, if there’s deep green chlorophyl there’s magnesium, but the paler green grass that grows fast after rainfall doesn’t, and has more potassium. Even the flying ants caused a speedy gallop back to their stable, with disgruntled snorts in the direction of the ‘predator’!
If your boy is ridden daily, i’d definitely add a top-up magnesium, as horses in work need a lot more anyway.

Add-up the magnesium he’s getting from the feeds/supplements, and see if it meets the MSD vet manual RDA of maintenance dose 500kg horse @ 16grams per day magnesium oxide form of magnesium. Yours should get more if in work.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I think they sometimes change a bit at 5 they normally start feeling there feet and can go through a more difficult stage, add a calmer by all means I feed mine magnesium oxide in the summer as pur bee has mentioned grass can be deficient of it.

My other thought was maybe ulcers his young new to you so could have have had a bit of stress might be worth feeding aloe vera for a while it can help with soothing the gut which in turn can help temperament.

 

[anon1997]

I’d be looking to add some magnesium, especially at this weather period time of year - british isles have had a nice warm dry period, and more recently a fair amount of rain and cooler temperatures, which will spike potassium levels in the grass, as the rain causes a growth spurt. The magnesium is temporarily a lower level in their system, with potassium hiked - basically a temporary electrolyte imbalance, which will be more pronounced in horses in regular work.

Magnesium gets metabolised during normal metabolic everyday movement processes and especially when mammals experience stress. The muscles tense, and to relax again after tensing the muscles uses magnesium, mainly. Hacking is a ‘high alert’ activity for a youngster - there’s lots to see and digest, he’s a flight animal. Your 23yr old would have been there and done it so tunes-out to most stimuli, and wouldnt have a peaked alert response to hacking, thus its far less ‘stressful’ to the oldie compared to your youngster. With you saying he schools same as usual, makes me especially think magnesium deficiency threshold has been reached, because schooling is same place, mainly same surrounding noises/movements - there’s no high alert needed, nothing new to see and hear, it’s a ‘predictable’ environment. He only has to listen to you and follow your direction.

Hyperexcitability in an otherwise calm horse always makes me first think about magnesium levels. Muscle twitching is another visual sign to watch for, especially after exercise - its usually the shoulders you’ll see twitch, upper front leg muscle area, just like they’re twitching-off a fly, except there will be no flies landing where they twitch. They also twitch the curved area above the rear stifle joint, just in the crease below their flank. This twitching has to be witnessed while they are at rest just after exercise, while standing eating hay for example, to warrant a suspicion of hypomagnesium. Stand around for a few minutes watching him after exercise. Dont touch or engage with him, just watch for small muscle twitches, without flies. If you see this grab the magnesium. I’ve witnessed this in mine combined with hyper-excitability and its always coincided with days of a deluge of rain and grass growth spike.

Temporary electrolyte imbalances are more common when the weather shifts, as grazing values of electrolytes shift too. Your is in work so make sure there’s enough sodium in his diet too.

I’d add a heaped desert spoon of mag. Oxide daily to some damp chaff or speedibeet, see how he does. It’s usually fairly fast-acting if it is a deficiency. 12hrs.

We’ve had torrential rains here in west ireland recent past few weeks, and despite mine being on low maintenance dose magnesium, they hit the threshold, and i noticed their alert and spook factor rise - the grass has grown fast. Deep green grass has decent magnesium in it, if there’s deep green chlorophyl there’s magnesium, but the paler green grass that grows fast after rainfall doesn’t, and has more potassium. Even the flying ants caused a speedy gallop back to their stable, with disgruntled snorts in the direction of the ‘predator’!
If your boy is ridden daily, i’d definitely add a top-up magnesium, as horses in work need a lot more anyway.

Add-up the magnesium he’s getting from the feeds/supplements, and see if it meets the MSD vet manual RDA of maintenance dose 500kg horse @ 16grams per day magnesium oxide form of magnesium. Yours should get more if in work.

Thank you I really have never known the benefits of magnesium to be honest as my other boy is very simple and has lived quite happily on fresh air until his age now! I will look into giving it a go, the first half of summer he has been like a donkey but now things that wouldn’t usually frighten him seem to be sp it may be worth a try

 

[Ouch05]

Hey, my now 6 year old WB was always great to hack on his own but this last month or two he has been quite spooky and nearly anything. So I believe that what Purbee has said would be the case as I know our grazing is low in Mag anyway as it was checked.

@PurBee may I ask a questions please. I am fine with my boy being spooky he is a total dude and it doesn't bother me. But and I am not sure how to say this. Is him being low in Mag going to cause him any harm. I will watch out for the twitching tonight after I have ridden.

 

[tda]

I’m firmly in the camp of treating him as genuine rather than naughty. Was he turned away when he was backed do you know as it’s amazing how much growing they do mentally in the break?

Will he lead off your other horse?

I agree with this

 

[hock]

He doesn’t have much hard feed at all to be honest as he was fussy about the low sugar feed I put him on! It’s pretty much a token handful at the stage but yes will take a look at his feet. Thanks for the advice!

I once removed sugar (as much as possible) from my whole yards feed. My usually greedy horses would not touch any of it and it all went in the bin .

 

[anon1997]

I once removed sugar (as much as possible) from my whole yards feed. My usually greedy horses would not touch any of it and it all went in the bin .

He’s been on this for a while and is only just coming to terms with actually eating it and not just throwing it on the floor

 

[PurBee]

Hey, my now 6 year old WB was always great to hack on his own but this last month or two he has been quite spooky and nearly anything. So I believe that what Purbee has said would be the case as I know our grazing is low in Mag anyway as it was checked.

@PurBee may I ask a questions please. I am fine with my boy being spooky he is a total dude and it doesn't bother me. But and I am not sure how to say this. Is him being low in Mag going to cause him any harm. I will watch out for the twitching tonight after I have ridden.

There’s varying degrees of deficiency possible with any electrolyte/nutrient. Threshold levels are when they are borderline and we would see initial mild symptoms, a bit more spook, high alert, but still sensible/responsive. If magnesium levels get just below threahold physical issues like muscle stiffness, muscle twitches are seen. When even lower large outburst freakouts (at things theyre usually fine with) and bolting are possible, and the risk of sudden acute on the ground seizures as the whole musculature spasm. The heart requires magnesium to keep it beating steady, so a very deficient horse would have a higher heart rate, signalling stress to their autonomic nervous system, which will make their behaviour noticeably highly spooky/unpredictable.

A horse that has become mildly spooky isnt a worry, but once involuntary muscle twitching is seen, and the spookiness reaches concerning levels, i’d supplement to prevent the more serious symptoms progressing.

It’s more of a risk with horses grazing - as sudden rains after a dry period, causes fast grass growth and a potassium spike which goes hand in hand with causing low magnesium. The scales of electrolyte balance gets tipped temporarily. I see the electrolytes like see-saws, that are always going up and down to a certain extent, especially with ridden horses, but sometimes the grazing shifts its balance quite quickly due to sudden weather changes, and that will cause their see-saws to swing wildly.
There’s usually plenty of potassium and calcium in forage, its sodium and magnesium that is usually lower in hay and fresh grass anyway, so those 2 minerals are more at risk of being swung too low.
Thankfully magnesium oxide and salt is cheap and fast to be absorbed to mitigate deficiency.

I wish i had filmed my horses muscles involuntary twitching to be able to show it, in the flesh. (I will if there is a next time)
We are so used to seeing them twitch this time of year due to the flies, so its not easily noticeable for our brains to catch involuntary muscle twitch, assuming they are flies.. I just happened to be hanging around them while they both were chilled-out eating hay, inspecting them over, like we horse folk do!….and saw them both twitch the same muscles over and over again, and suddenly realised, there were no flies. I made-up a magnesium feed straight away. The next morning the twitching had stopped. We have had such unusually high rainfall recently, its completely tipped the grazing levels. Mine are on magnesium anyway, a nominal dose, (hence my shock to see their muscle twitches) but the potassium grass spike must have been massive to induce temporary hypo-magnesium levels.

I’ve always got into the habit of when they come in from grazing, to stand-by for a couple of minutes and just observe them allover. Ive caught subtle symptoms this way.

With magnesium a heaped desert spoon will do the trick to bring them back into plus levels from deficiency threshold. As you know your grazing is low via testing, its best to supplement a bit to top up levels and when you have more rain, give a bit more, especially if you ride him regularly. It’s nice to have an alert bouncy ride, but when YOU get a bit worried its too bouncy, …try the magnesium.

 

[hock]

There’s varying degrees of deficiency possible with any electrolyte/nutrient. Threshold levels are when they are borderline and we would see initial mild symptoms, a bit more spook, high alert, but still sensible/responsive. If magnesium levels get just below threahold physical issues like muscle stiffness, muscle twitches are seen. When even lower large outburst freakouts (at things theyre usually fine with) and bolting are possible, and the risk of sudden acute on the ground seizures as the whole musculature spasm. The heart requires magnesium to keep it beating steady, so a very deficient horse would have a higher heart rate, signalling stress to their autonomic nervous system, which will make their behaviour noticeably highly spooky/unpredictable.

A horse that has become mildly spooky isnt a worry, but once involuntary muscle twitching is seen, and the spookiness reaches concerning levels, i’d supplement to prevent the more serious symptoms progressing.

It’s more of a risk with horses grazing - as sudden rains after a dry period, causes fast grass growth and a potassium spike which goes hand in hand with causing low magnesium. The scales of electrolyte balance gets tipped temporarily. I see the electrolytes like see-saws, that are always going up and down to a certain extent, especially with ridden horses, but sometimes the grazing shifts its balance quite quickly due to sudden weather changes, and that will cause their see-saws to swing wildly.
There’s usually plenty of potassium and calcium in forage, its sodium and magnesium that is usually lower in hay and fresh grass anyway, so those 2 minerals are more at risk of being swung too low.
Thankfully magnesium oxide and salt is cheap and fast to be absorbed to mitigate deficiency.

I wish i had filmed my horses muscles involuntary twitching to be able to show it, in the flesh. (I will if there is a next time)
We are so used to seeing them twitch this time of year due to the flies, so its not easily noticeable for our brains to catch involuntary muscle twitch, assuming they are flies.. I just happened to be hanging around them while they both were chilled-out eating hay, inspecting them over, like we horse folk do!….and saw them both twitch the same muscles over and over again, and suddenly realised, there were no flies. I made-up a magnesium feed straight away. The next morning the twitching had stopped. We have had such unusually high rainfall recently, its completely tipped the grazing levels. Mine are on magnesium anyway, a nominal dose, (hence my shock to see their muscle twitches) but the potassium grass spike must have been massive to induce temporary hypo-magnesium levels.

I’ve always got into the habit of when they come in from grazing, to stand-by for a couple of minutes and just observe them allover. Ive caught subtle symptoms this way.

With magnesium a heaped desert spoon will do the trick to bring them back into plus levels from deficiency threshold. As you know your grazing is low via testing, it’s best to supplement a bit to top up levels and when you have more rain, give a bit more, especially if you ride him regularly. It’s nice to have an alert bouncy ride, but when YOU get a bit worried it’s too bouncy, …try the magnesium.

I have magnesium but luckily haven’t had to use it (for a calmer), what maintenance dose do you give? I found very useful thank you.

 

[anon1997]

There’s varying degrees of deficiency possible with any electrolyte/nutrient. Threshold levels are when they are borderline and we would see initial mild symptoms, a bit more spook, high alert, but still sensible/responsive. If magnesium levels get just below threahold physical issues like muscle stiffness, muscle twitches are seen. When even lower large outburst freakouts (at things theyre usually fine with) and bolting are possible, and the risk of sudden acute on the ground seizures as the whole musculature spasm. The heart requires magnesium to keep it beating steady, so a very deficient horse would have a higher heart rate, signalling stress to their autonomic nervous system, which will make their behaviour noticeably highly spooky/unpredictable.

A horse that has become mildly spooky isnt a worry, but once involuntary muscle twitching is seen, and the spookiness reaches concerning levels, i’d supplement to prevent the more serious symptoms progressing.

It’s more of a risk with horses grazing - as sudden rains after a dry period, causes fast grass growth and a potassium spike which goes hand in hand with causing low magnesium. The scales of electrolyte balance gets tipped temporarily. I see the electrolytes like see-saws, that are always going up and down to a certain extent, especially with ridden horses, but sometimes the grazing shifts its balance quite quickly due to sudden weather changes, and that will cause their see-saws to swing wildly.
There’s usually plenty of potassium and calcium in forage, its sodium and magnesium that is usually lower in hay and fresh grass anyway, so those 2 minerals are more at risk of being swung too low.
Thankfully magnesium oxide and salt is cheap and fast to be absorbed to mitigate deficiency.

I wish i had filmed my horses muscles involuntary twitching to be able to show it, in the flesh. (I will if there is a next time)
We are so used to seeing them twitch this time of year due to the flies, so its not easily noticeable for our brains to catch involuntary muscle twitch, assuming they are flies.. I just happened to be hanging around them while they both were chilled-out eating hay, inspecting them over, like we horse folk do!….and saw them both twitch the same muscles over and over again, and suddenly realised, there were no flies. I made-up a magnesium feed straight away. The next morning the twitching had stopped. We have had such unusually high rainfall recently, its completely tipped the grazing levels. Mine are on magnesium anyway, a nominal dose, (hence my shock to see their muscle twitches) but the potassium grass spike must have been massive to induce temporary hypo-magnesium levels.

I’ve always got into the habit of when they come in from grazing, to stand-by for a couple of minutes and just observe them allover. Ive caught subtle symptoms this way.

With magnesium a heaped desert spoon will do the trick to bring them back into plus levels from deficiency threshold. As you know your grazing is low via testing, its best to supplement a bit to top up levels and when you have more rain, give a bit more, especially if you ride him regularly. It’s nice to have an alert bouncy ride, but when YOU get a bit worried its too bouncy, …try the magnesium.

Sorry another question for you: with magenesium do I need to feed him anything else with it? I know with humans you are supposed to take something else to aid absorption? someone else recommended good as gold supplement however I would prefer to just give him what he needs rather than a general calmer? Also as my boy doesn’t really enjoy his feed much, do you have any suggestions on how I could feed him the magnesium. Thank you so much for the information you have really broadened my knowledge on this!

 

[Mrs G]

My lad has had the twitching muscles - he was super upset to tack up the other day for no apparent reason and got himself into such a state I could see him trembling - so this thread has been very useful and magnesium is on the shopping list!

 

[PurBee]

Sorry another question for you: with magenesium do I need to feed him anything else with it? I know with humans you are supposed to take something else to aid absorption? someone else recommended good as gold supplement however I would prefer to just give him what he needs rather than a general calmer? Also as my boy doesn’t really enjoy his feed much, do you have any suggestions on how I could feed him the magnesium. Thank you so much for the information you have really broadened my knowledge on this!

Some minerals and vitamins have co-factors which will increase absorption of each other, but magnesium oxide can be taken alone, as there’s nothing in nutritional literature ive ever come across that says its best paired with X for better absorption. Many ‘equine calmer’ companies may market such a claim, but in general mammal nutritional circles it’s not promoted.
There’s various types of magnesium that absorb at different percentages. But the consensus is that mag. Oxide, certainly for large animal mammals, is the best form as it’s 50% absorbed on average, and cheap. Whereas Mag. Glycinate is absorbed at 70%+ - it‘s 5 times the price, for just a bit more absorption potential.
Because horses need such large doses of all nutrition, it would be really expensive to feed other forms of a macro mineral. Large bulk 1kg+ bags of other forms of magnesium are much harder to source too, and likely need to be a foreign import.

The only thing would be to give magnesium several hours away from any medications the horse may be on, i.e. antibiotics, pain relievers etc. as magnesium may interact with them, by causing faster excretion of them.

A lot of calmers on the market combine known calming herbs/amino acids mixed in with magnesium. I personally question some of the herb choices they use, as many of them are not promoted for longterm use for humans, due to side-effects from accumulation, so i dont think we should be feeding them longterm to horses. Especially as horses can’t talk and tell us they feel nauseous or have a headache etc. Herbs are ok as a short-term treatment for what they’re known for, but some common ones shiuldnt be given longterm as an everyday supplement.
It’s best to try the base-line nutritional needs for support, see if that helps, before adding other things. Magnesium on its own is usually adequate.

My gelding is a fussy eater, launches his food bowl if i’ve added a new tiny dose ingredient he doesnt like! Yet he’s always been fine with magnesium, as it takes a little tart and sharp but not too gross. When that taste is diluted with half kilo of soaked speedibeet it seems to be very manageable for most horses. I add salt too, they love that - also chopped carrot/apple/banana….mixed in.
Brewers yeast is a really strong taste, yuck for us, but most horses love the stuff, even my fussy gelding - thats a good masking taste because it overpowers whatever else is in the bowl! Its cheap and nutritious for B vitamins, great for aiding gut health, so i throw just a desert spoon of that in.
For a really fussy one, i’d mix in apple or orange juice, some fruit juice, if they like fruit tastes. That helps to mask most weird tastes and give some sweetness taste.

Youre very welcome for your questions - my 2 being hot bloods mixes were really quite a freaky pair until i realised a little nutritional balancing was all it took to have them both transformed to really lovely personalities, that are a joy to handle and be around. Forage and grass nutrition research helped me realise there’s some major holes in their diet when domesticated with limited food choices, and by filling-in these nutritional gaps we help them be as healthy as possible.

 

[PurBee]

I have magnesium but luckily haven’t had to use it (for a calmer), what maintenance dose do you give? I found very useful thank you.

Generally horses at rest, considering they’ll be getting some grams from hay/lage/grass, i give a heaped tablespoon. That’s around 20grams. As magnesium oxide molecularly is only 50% actual magnesium mineral, the other 50% being oxygen, my dose gives 10g elemental magnesium. Also to consider is that around half of that will be absorbed into cells, with half excreted naturally….they likely end-up with 5g actual elemental magnesium.
Mine have access to graze safe tree leaves, barks and bushes that are deeper green and have a higher mag level than the grass. If mine didnt have those surrounding the land that they regularly graze on, i’d up the bowl mag dose to 1.5 tablespoons.
The hay/lage doesnt have a lot, likely 2-3g per 8kg. Grass will be higher, but it does depend - if very short grazed light-coloured grass tips, i wouldnt count much mag from grass.
I estimate they are getting the 10g absorbed elemental mag from all sources of summer food access.

Magnesium supplementation is much safer than most other nutrients as whats not needed gets excreted. So it’s hard to overdose and get it wrong (Within reason!) Unlike many other nutrients which dont give much wiggle room for getting it wrong. Practically all equine kidney stones tested are calcium based, not magnesium. Supplementing calcium when not needed leads to risk of kidney stones. Only if we fed half a cupful of mag ox per day would we put the horse at hypermag risks.
IF a horse has kidney disease issues then all nutrients need to be thought about more carefully, and extra caution exercised.

If the horse is ridden its likely they’ll need much more, as magnesium is used up faster in any exercising mammal.

The bones store magnesium, so the body does have magnesium stores, but in cases of sudden grass potassium spikes, after high rainfall, it cannot rob magnesium from the bones fast enough to counteract the wild electrolyte swing induced by sudden rains affecting grass potassium levels. The bone robbing is a plod-plod process, but potassium spike can happen after 2hrs eating that grass, and is an acute shift in electrolytes. This is why we can have a horse have a spooky afternoon spell, we turn them out or stable them, they appear better next day. The body will have replenished any dire need of calcium or magnesium from the bones overnight.

The trouble with relying on the skeleton to top-up deficient diet of mag or calcium/phosphorus is that in older age their bones can be weaker, leading to the varying bone conditions.

Im not religious with mine at rest giving them a high dose of the shortfall of nutrients, especially when out in the better months grazing varying sources. If exercised daily i would be. They burn through so much more nutrition being exercised.
In these 10+ years i’ve never witnessed a july deluge that we’ve recently had here - hence my shock at them experiencing muscle twitches, despite being on maintenance magnesium.
They do say that sudden high rains, high grass growth after mild warm dry weather is the most at risk times for potassium spiking in grass. We often get rains here in west ireland all year long, but this july has been non-stop practically, and that has come after about 3 weeks of hot dry weather. I thought my maintenance dose would have safeguarded them, but the electrolyte see-saw must have wildly swung about due to the extreme weather to see involuntary muscle twitches. Very unusual, yet interesting learning from an equine management point of view

 

[hock]

Generally horses at rest, considering they’ll be getting some grams from hay/lage/grass, i give a heaped tablespoon. That’s around 20grams. As magnesium oxide molecularly is only 50% actual magnesium mineral, the other 50% being oxygen, my dose gives 10g elemental magnesium. Also to consider is that around half of that will be absorbed into cells, with half excreted naturally….they likely end-up with 5g actual elemental magnesium.
Mine have access to graze safe tree leaves, barks and bushes that are deeper green and have a higher mag level than the grass. If mine didnt have those surrounding the land that they regularly graze on, i’d up the bowl mag dose to 1.5 tablespoons.
The hay/lage doesnt have a lot, likely 2-3g per 8kg. Grass will be higher, but it does depend - if very short grazed light-coloured grass tips, i wouldnt count much mag from grass.
I estimate they are getting the 10g absorbed elemental mag from all sources of summer food access.

Magnesium supplementation is much safer than most other nutrients as whats not needed gets excreted. So it’s hard to overdose and get it wrong (Within reason!) Unlike many other nutrients which dont give much wiggle room for getting it wrong. Practically all equine kidney stones tested are calcium based, not magnesium. Supplementing calcium when not needed leads to risk of kidney stones. Only if we fed half a cupful of mag ox per day would we put the horse at hypermag risks.
IF a horse has kidney disease issues then all nutrients need to be thought about more carefully, and extra caution exercised.

If the horse is ridden its likely they’ll need much more, as magnesium is used up faster in any exercising mammal.

The bones store magnesium, so the body does have magnesium stores, but in cases of sudden grass potassium spikes, after high rainfall, it cannot rob magnesium from the bones fast enough to counteract the wild electrolyte swing induced by sudden rains affecting grass potassium levels. The bone robbing is a plod-plod process, but potassium spike can happen after 2hrs eating that grass, and is an acute shift in electrolytes. This is why we can have a horse have a spooky afternoon spell, we turn them out or stable them, they appear better next day. The body will have replenished any dire need of calcium or magnesium from the bones overnight.

The trouble with relying on the skeleton to top-up deficient diet of mag or calcium/phosphorus is that in older age their bones can be weaker, leading to the varying bone conditions.

Im not religious with mine at rest giving them a high dose of the shortfall of nutrients, especially when out in the better months grazing varying sources. If exercised daily i would be. They burn through so much more nutrition being exercised.
In these 10+ years i’ve never witnessed a july deluge that we’ve recently had here - hence my shock at them experiencing muscle twitches, despite being on maintenance magnesium.
They do say that sudden high rains, high grass growth after mild warm dry weather is the most at risk times for potassium spiking in grass. We often get rains here in west ireland all year long, but this july has been non-stop practically, and that has come after about 3 weeks of hot dry weather. I thought my maintenance dose would have safeguarded them, but the electrolyte see-saw must have wildly swung about due to the extreme weather to see involuntary muscle twitches. Very unusual, yet interesting learning from an equine management point of view

Absolutely fascinating, thank you!

 

[hock]

Generally horses at rest, considering they’ll be getting some grams from hay/lage/grass, i give a heaped tablespoon. That’s around 20grams. As magnesium oxide molecularly is only 50% actual magnesium mineral, the other 50% being oxygen, my dose gives 10g elemental magnesium. Also to consider is that around half of that will be absorbed into cells, with half excreted naturally….they likely end-up with 5g actual elemental magnesium.
Mine have access to graze safe tree leaves, barks and bushes that are deeper green and have a higher mag level than the grass. If mine didnt have those surrounding the land that they regularly graze on, i’d up the bowl mag dose to 1.5 tablespoons.
The hay/lage doesnt have a lot, likely 2-3g per 8kg. Grass will be higher, but it does depend - if very short grazed light-coloured grass tips, i wouldnt count much mag from grass.
I estimate they are getting the 10g absorbed elemental mag from all sources of summer food access.

Magnesium supplementation is much safer than most other nutrients as whats not needed gets excreted. So it’s hard to overdose and get it wrong (Within reason!) Unlike many other nutrients which dont give much wiggle room for getting it wrong. Practically all equine kidney stones tested are calcium based, not magnesium. Supplementing calcium when not needed leads to risk of kidney stones. Only if we fed half a cupful of mag ox per day would we put the horse at hypermag risks.
IF a horse has kidney disease issues then all nutrients need to be thought about more carefully, and extra caution exercised.

If the horse is ridden its likely they’ll need much more, as magnesium is used up faster in any exercising mammal.

The bones store magnesium, so the body does have magnesium stores, but in cases of sudden grass potassium spikes, after high rainfall, it cannot rob magnesium from the bones fast enough to counteract the wild electrolyte swing induced by sudden rains affecting grass potassium levels. The bone robbing is a plod-plod process, but potassium spike can happen after 2hrs eating that grass, and is an acute shift in electrolytes. This is why we can have a horse have a spooky afternoon spell, we turn them out or stable them, they appear better next day. The body will have replenished any dire need of calcium or magnesium from the bones overnight.

The trouble with relying on the skeleton to top-up deficient diet of mag or calcium/phosphorus is that in older age their bones can be weaker, leading to the varying bone conditions.

Im not religious with mine at rest giving them a high dose of the shortfall of nutrients, especially when out in the better months grazing varying sources. If exercised daily i would be. They burn through so much more nutrition being exercised.
In these 10+ years i’ve never witnessed a july deluge that we’ve recently had here - hence my shock at them experiencing muscle twitches, despite being on maintenance magnesium.
They do say that sudden high rains, high grass growth after mild warm dry weather is the most at risk times for potassium spiking in grass. We often get rains here in west ireland all year long, but this july has been non-stop practically, and that has come after about 3 weeks of hot dry weather. I thought my maintenance dose would have safeguarded them, but the electrolyte see-saw must have wildly swung about due to the extreme weather to see involuntary muscle twitches. Very unusual, yet interesting learning from an equine management point of view

Another question, I’ve never used a calmer have the magnesium as a just incase. So my riding horses have all now gone on a maintenance dose as of tomorrow. My question is: So the lack of magnesium can make them sharper but magnesium isn’t going to make a calm horse too laid back. It’s the lack of something causing the problem not the mag itself being a calming benefit. I know what I mean but don’t know if I’m wording it correctly?

 

[PurBee]

Another question, I’ve never used a calmer have the magnesium as a just incase. So my riding horses have all now gone on a maintenance dose as of tomorrow. My question is: So the lack of magnesium can make them sharper but magnesium isn’t going to make a calm horse too laid back. It’s the lack of something causing the problem not the mag itself being a calming benefit. I know what I mean but don’t know if I’m wording it correctly?

I get what youre saying. It’s a complex answer really as magnesium does many jobs in the body so affects many systems.

This will sound paradoxical, but bear with me! Magnesium can potentially make a lethargic ploddy fat horse more energised, aswell as cause a ‘spook’ horse to be more calm.
This is because of the various mechanisms magnesium has biologically. Its not only is essential for healthy metabolism, but also essential for healthy nerve/muscle/heart conductivity/contraction+relaxation.

We need to define a ’spooky’ horse more accurately. A truly spooky horse is one who we notice is also more tense even at rest, daily ground handling. The spooks are towards things the horse is usually ok with, or the spooks are far more explosive than reasonable, or the horse takes a long time to calm down after a spook.
This behaviour would make me question mag deficiency, and should calm that horse.

It’s easy for us to describe an alert energised horse as ‘spooky’, if we’re used to a calmer mount. Or describe a horse that spooks, that is just the natural fight/flight instinct occurring, and natural, like a pheasant flying out if the hedgerow.
We need to assess the degree of spook and whether its ‘natural’ or ‘un-natural’ degree of spookiness.

Magnesium is also essential for metabolism - literally it forms the enzymatic molecular processes that enables the formation of the primary energy molecule ATP, that all mammals use for energy. It’s needed to burn carbs. Hence why fat-prone horses with no energy or spark at all can also be magnesium deficient. They are metabolically deficient, their system is robbing from the bones for their nerve/muscle magnesium needs but not supplying enough for metabolic needs. They put on weight easily, it doesnt shift - fat pads appear. I’d definitely trial magnesium as without that the carbs cannot be metabolised and will have to be stored as fat, until the body sources more magnesium molecules spare to make ATP energy molecules.
(This is barring any endocrine metabolic disorders disgnosed which complicates the biology im explaining)

Due to the metabolic effects magnesium can make an apparently docile horse, energised. This is why you’ll read from some occasionally that magnesium made their horse spooky. The metabolism has become energised due to better functioning of ATP energy and the horse is feeling better for it, and has natural energy. It’s different to a wildly spooky horse. Hence clarification of what spooky means is required. I can imagine some owners being very shocked their ultra-plods are exhibiting energy, as we dont think generally just a spoon of an essential mineral can be that important.
Being responsive, energised and SANE are what we are hoping to achieve with balancing electrolytes.

Its similar with people, the skinny nervous, high energy waif-like people, aswell as overweight lethargic people who starve themselves and still dont lose weight, paradoxically can both have the same deficiency of magnesium, presenting as 2 completely different-looking physical imbalances.

The ‘constitution’ of the animal/person determines how their biological homeostasis is reached. Like we know of DNA now, we have fast-twitch muscles, and slow-twitch muscle DNA signatures - the fast twitch will metabolically burn through fuel easier/quicker, its personal DNA constitution is to be lean. So this person would likely present as nervous/anxious when magnesium deficient, rather than fat.

(Metabolically this gets very complex as the body has other ways to produce energy molecules without using magnesium+carbs/sugar - but it has to via the liver transform the unusable carb molecules to fat and uses another pathway not requiring magnesium to then burn the fat. This is a slower metabolic route to produce energy.)

The OP of this thread described her horse as spooking at things not normally spooked at. Reaching her rider limit of feeling safe hacking. As magnesium is part of the electrolyte matrix balance, which can become a wobbly see-saw quite suddenly when (usually its grass) diet changes of these minerals shift dramatically, then the hypo-magnesium state can be seen symptomatically via their general nervous/tense/spooky demeanour. It doesnt mean the horse generally is magnesium deficient necessarily, but for a few days, that threshold has been reached and we’re seeing hypercalcium and hyper potassium symptoms combined with low magnesium symptoms.

Due to grass/soil and hay analysis from the british isles showing, on average, very low levels of magnesium, (and sodium generally), in comparison to the other electrolytes: potassium/calcium/phosphorus, we know that what goes into the horse’s system is imbalanced to begin with. With robbing from the bones aswell as taking mag from the combined feeds, the body will chug along, not showing any overt symptoms, until there’s a wild electrolyte imbalance (hard exercise can use-up electrolytes quickly too aswell as sudden grass changes from weather shifts) then we have the spooky horse on our hands.
That’s the acute mag deficiency possibility.

The slow deficiency state i’d expect to see either a horse getting more obese and lethargic, and/or slowly becoming more spooky.

My welshDxarab mare had fat pads developing, looking generally lethargic/ploddy at rest, but reacted way OTT to stimulus, hyper-alert to familiar noises etc - so a combo of both nervous system and metabolism affected.
The younger gelding,with more arab and constitutionally very athletic would look docile at rest grazing, but be a belligerent git to handle, and totally OTT spook reactions to known and unknown stimulus. He once discovered a plank i’d put across a ditch near the edge of his field, and galloped out of the field, 2 acres away, looking back on it, snorting like a dragon!
My dog can bark right beside them now and they dont OTT react. They just look curiously in the direction she’s barking at, to see what it is. Whereas before they would have began a circuit run-around of silliness.

Im sorry for the long explanation -i hope it makes sense. With all minerals and vitamins they dont just do 1 job in the body so there’s always these paradoxes to understand for hypo and hyper nutrient states, as we have to take into account all possible biological interactions.

With all min/vit toxicity or deficiency there’s the ‘acute’ possibility of imbalance or the ‘chronic’ slow route to deficiency/toxicity.
For example, when horses eat ferns, that contains an enzyme thiaminase that will quickly gobble-up all vitamin B1 in the body, and that is required for nervous system stability. So we see a wobbly, unco-ordinated horse suddenly get worse and worse, and likely die within 24hrs if the fern dose was high enough. Ferns affect other grazers too. The remedy is simple vitamin B1, but looks like its a fast-acting toxin invading the animal quickly.
With the macro minerals/electrolytes we can sometimes see similar acute reactions, again its usually always fast change in grass levels after weird weather changes, so best to have mag and sodium to hand on the shelf to mitigate wildly swinging levels, even if they get maintenance daily dose.

 

[hock]

Purbee you are bloody marvellous! Thank you so much for taking the time to write the explanation as you’ve made it so interesting and informative!! You are the sort of person that should have a group to follow on FB! Thank you! I am a person that has reduced my calories down to 1700 a day with 3 horses to ride and another 7 to look after and haven’t lost weight for ages and I’m so lethargic. Makes me wonder about magnesium!

 

[PurBee]

Purbee you are bloody marvellous! Thank you so much for taking the time to write the explanation as you’ve made it so interesting and informative!! You are the sort of person that should have a group to follow on FB! Thank you! I am a person that has reduced my calories down to 1700 a day with 3 horses to ride and another 7 to look after and haven’t lost weight for ages and I’m so lethargic. Makes me wonder about magnesium!

Thank you hock, that’s very kind of you to say. I’ve always loved understanding nutrition, but getting my own horses at home really super-charged that interest to expand to equines. Seeing real life changes in their health and condition by trying to balance their nutrition better, then drove me into land/pasture management, so it really has been a revealing and interesting journey.
Sometimes small tweaks are all that’s needed, to have an impact. Theyre such sensitive creatures, being flight animals, with massive nutritional demands due to their size.

I’d always recommend magnesium for any human struggling with stubborn weight issues, as a first port of call. The craving for chocolate is a reasonable one as that has a lot of magnesium in it! Go for dark chocolate low sugar and never feel guilty!

Here’s a great list of foods rich in magnesium, and a good basic article all-round about magnesium for humans:

25 Magnesium-Rich Foods You Should Be Eating

Your body needs magnesium — and you can easily get enough by eating a healthy diet. Here are 25 foods that can help you hit your goal.

health.clevelandclinic.org

 

[hock]

Thank you hock, that’s very kind of you to say. I’ve always loved understanding nutrition, but getting my own horses at home really super-charged that interest to expand to equines. Seeing real life changes in their health and condition by trying to balance their nutrition better, then drove me into land/pasture management, so it really has been a revealing and interesting journey.
Sometimes small tweaks are all that’s needed, to have an impact. Theyre such sensitive creatures, being flight animals, with massive nutritional demands due to their size.

I’d always recommend magnesium for any human struggling with stubborn weight issues, as a first port of call. The craving for chocolate is a reasonable one as that has a lot of magnesium in it! Go for dark chocolate low sugar and never feel guilty!

Here’s a great list of foods rich in magnesium, and a good basic article all-round about magnesium for humans:

25 Magnesium-Rich Foods You Should Be Eating

Your body needs magnesium — and you can easily get enough by eating a healthy diet. Here are 25 foods that can help you hit your goal.

health.clevelandclinic.org

I’m spreading the magnesium word as well to my friends lol. Many thanks for the list! When I read the symptoms of a low magnesium diet I think I have about 90% of them. Just ordered my tablets, quite excited!! Size 10 by next weekend?

 

[PurBee]

I’m spreading the magnesium word as well to my friends lol. Many thanks for the list! When I read the symptoms of a low magnesium diet I think I have about 90% of them. Just ordered my tablets, quite excited!! Size 10 by next weekend?

Magical magnesium! Good luck with it!