Youngster Kicking & Biting

devilwoman

devilwoman

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I have a 2½ year old filly that I bought "unhandled off the field" approx 10 months ago, she has always had a bad habit of bucking at us if she has feed, lately she has taken this from just bucking to kicking out, she has also developed a nasty biting habit, she doesn't get titbits at all and is told off for bad behaviour, but even when just leading her she is tipping her had sideways and snapping, she nearly had me in the face last night, then tonight she kicked out at me as I waked past her with the shavings fork in my hand, unfortunatley for her she got it accross her ar*e (not my usual treatment but she caught me offguard and she's pi**ing me off with her nastiness)

Please tell me how I should be dealing with this - ive tried the shouting stern when she does wrong and making a nice fuss of her when she's being good - trouble is she's very rarely being good at the moment, even when grooming her, she's tied up but still trying to bite whenever i'm close enough, help please.
 
tricky - check noone else is giving her titbits - are there other horses stealing her food at all?. Secondly I think this is a dominance issue and she is saying to you that she is the head of the herd. Advice i was given when my horse was being bolshy was to always assert yourself by making the horse take a step backwards every time it does something wrong, step into her zone. Hold her feedbucket when she is eating, stroke her lots and only leave her alone when she is being good. I had a wild stallion who would charge at you in the field after he got over his initial wildness, i was told to stand my ground (With a broom just incase) and he soon learnt I was head of the herd -can be scarey at times tho! good luck
 
With young horses they will test the boundaries, teething they can become a bit nippy and seasons my mares have been a bit of a handful the last couple of weeks as they are still coming into season as the weather has been so warm.

I tend to use a rope instead of my hand if if I am leading and one of them decides to get bolshy or bitey. I have developed a good shot with the end of the lead rope on the nose. But you have to be quick so they don't know where it comes from.

I don't generally tend to slap but I do growl at them. I always use very long lead ropes for youngsters as my first one reared one day and I run out of rope!

As for kicking that is totally unacceptable, my mare went through a dominant stage when she was younger where she would round on your in the stable and double barrel you. I used a broom but she run into it!!!!

There's a fine art of not getting them to associate you with the punishment taken me years!

Your best tool is your elbow, my first filly used to use her shoulder against you stick your elbow out so they run into it every time they soon learn.

Its a good idea to hold a feed bucket so they get used to you around them whilst they are eating.
 
If it's any consolation, my 2.5 year old Dales filly is going through the same phase but without the kicking. She was as sweet natured as you could wish until about 3 months ago when "Kevinetta" appeared and the sweet filly vanished. I am reliably informed that this is the Terrible Two's and they do grow out of it. I think most mammals are grumpy when they're teething and this may have something to do with it and also the dominance issue too.
 
She needs a good sharpe shock to make her think .

My then yearling kicked out whilst I was feeding her , She got a sharpe slap with the leadrope and put to the back of the stable, She didn't go the first time and tried to barge at me, Until I chucked the bucket at her and sent her to the back of the stable .

She has never done it again
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Hi There,

Please be very careful with your youngster.

The most important and first thing that you should do is do some homework on horse behaviour.
Have you thought about Parelli?
Parelli is invaluable to teaching you why horse react like they do and how to develope your own 'Savvy' to stay safe and control/lesson any extreme behaviours that your horse may display.

It sounds as though you may have a leftbrained horse therefore you must research how to cope with her biting and kicking (visit www.parelli.com for more info).

I promise you that getting angry, asserting dominance or scolding will only make the matter worse and you or someone else will get hurt. Please do not follow any advice that leads you in this direction.

I hope this helps?
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If someone was seen hitting a dog or a cat in the street with a bucket, rope, or fork it would been deemed as animal cruelty and the person responsible reported.

I find it unbelieveable that violence and beating horses into submission is still deemed in the horsey world as acceptable??

The orginal post has already proved that reacting in such a way does not solve the problem.

You should be ashamed of yourself
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hi There,

Please be very careful with your youngster.

The most important and first thing that you should do is do some homework on horse behaviour.
Have you thought about Parelli?
Parelli is invaluable to teaching you why horse react like they do and how to develope your own 'Savvy' to stay safe and control/lesson any extreme behaviours that your horse may display.

It sounds as though you may have a leftbrained horse therefore you must research how to cope with her biting and kicking (visit www.parelli.com for more info).

I promise you that getting angry, asserting dominance or scolding will only make the matter worse and you or someone else will get hurt. Please do not follow any advice that leads you in this direction.

I hope this helps?
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[/ QUOTE ]

No words

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[ QUOTE ]
If someone was seen hitting a dog or a cat in the street with a bucket, rope, or fork it would been deemed as animal cruelty and the person responsible reported.

I find it unbelieveable that violence and beating horses into submission is still deemed in the horsey world as acceptable??

The orginal post has already proved that reacting in such a way does not solve the problem.

You should be ashamed of yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe you are attacking someone so aggressively.
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CMT is entitled to her opinions, and you have no right to be labelling anyone an animal abuser.
S
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Ouchie !

By the way .... I also stick an electric fencer to her door, She just won't stop kicking the door, That'll teach her .

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Hmmmm great idea, could also electrify the lead rope and beat her with it - that'll take care of the biting. I have used this method with great success btw
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Not at all, totally misconstruded.

Rather than using techniques that could certainly end up causing harm to the owner - (believe me I have seen plenty of people hurt in my time performing such acts) self education must surely be a far better approach?!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Not at all, totally misconstruded.

Rather than using techniques that could certainly end up causing harm to the owner - (believe me I have seen plenty of people hurt in my time performing such acts) self education must surely be a far better approach?!

[/ QUOTE ]

And would you not also agree that Parelli practiced badly can end up with injured owners and confused horses?
 
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I find it unbelieveable that violence and beating horses into submission is still deemed in the horsey world as acceptable?? [ QUOTE ]




[/ QUOTE ]

If a youngster behaved like that in a herd situation she'd be put in her place pdq, and her elders wouldn't be saying "Oh don't do that dearie" they'd give her a jolly good nip or kick. So is that unacceptable too?

If I had a youngster, any horse, that threatens me with teeth or legs, then it gets threatened back. If it kicks/bites me, and if I am still standing, I will 'kick/bite' back immediately with voice, hand, rope or with whatever the situation merits. I have many foals and youngsters here every year, I don't go around beating them up, but I don't fanny about and tolerate bad manners either. Oddly enough not one of them are headshy, vicious, cowed or pushy, just pleasant, confident little horses that understand their place in the order of things and will go on and lead useful and comfortable lives.

What does Parelli suggest you do in this situation, just rub your arm and say "naughty horse" ?
 
Ditto her being a pushy dominate little witch.

How did she react to a smack with the shavings fork? That would have been my first reaction too but some horses doesn't repond well.

Giving her a good hard shock when she's overtly aggressive works well and is something I've used sucessfully.

However, it's a short term solution and doesn't address the real issue - her lack of respect for humans. Just chasing her off each time she's aggressive without further work will just result in a sulky resentful horse who will either fight back or become frightened off you.

That kind of behaviour towards humans doesn't suddenly appear out of nowhere - there will have been a build up to it that you either didn't notice or didn't deal with correctly. I suspect she's finally decided she in charge and can boss everyone and anyone about as previous handling has lead her to that conclussion. Problem with unhandled youngsters is that many people are so busy being nicey-nicey to them, so they trust humans, that they get very little in the way of disapline.

Whilst I can't be bothered with the parelli left and right brain rubbish (they're a horse thorugh and through - it's only humans that need silly names for things), ground work will help greatly.

If you're not sure how to go about basic ground work of foot-moving, getting out (and stay out!) of your space and giving to pressure there are lots of helpful books and videos, plus some very good instructors about.
 
Sometimes a sharp shock can work - Stinky nipped me once when he was about 2 - and received a bitch slap with a scream - got the soft skin of my arm and it really hurt and shocked me and I did lash out.

Never did it again. Farra nipped once and received a yell and elbow - again never repeated.

Ditto kicking, not acceptable at all. Stinky went through striking out with the front foot and each time I gave him a kick back on the offending leg - kick is quickest way for me to respond, no time to get a rope. Each time I did it a little harder and after a couple of days he got the message and has never kicked out again.

Folks might not like what I did, but it got the message through - each time they did something wrong it was an immediate response back, if you can't respond immediately then let it go.

Farra also went through a stage of striking out - though not to kick - clydesdales doing this are extremely dangerous due to size. Again I stood beside her and every time she did this, she got a tap and told no - Farra needs less stern reactions than Stinky - she is far more placid whilst he is a loveable but cheeky cob that pushes all the limits.

However, all this work must also be backed up with ground work on a youngster to teach them respect for you, your space etc. I have spent hours on Stinky and also Farra getting them to lead, back up, move over etc and also have been having some NH lessons which has been very interesting.

In short, start groundwork, get some respect and if necessary give her a sharp shock if she kicks and bites. My two are now 5 and can be handled by anyone, including small children though both still have plenty of groundwork and manners lessons to ensure they stay this way.

In your relationship, you must be the leader and the horse can be your friend but must be the one that submits to you - and this does not mean beating it - Stinky finds me backing him up with body langague the most daunting of anything I could do to him, and this brings on instant respect and submission from him.
 
My friends horse does that he's just under 2 yrs, he'll wait till your off guard and just nip. He's not as bad as he was but no matter how much you discipline him he still does it! As for kicking he'd kick forwards or backwards no he's learnt that people stand to the side of him so he kicks sideways.
He's in with a shire horse and he doesn't stand for it. The monster bit him and H turned around and kicked him. Was quite funny for a while baby was trudging around looking sorry for himself. Still hasn't stopped him completly though!
 
i would also be expecting respect...
kicking out is plain nasty. a more dominant hrose would have chased her off/kicked her and taken the feed.
she needs to learn that you are allowing her to 'share' the feed and she damn well needs to respect you.
if that means chasing her off with a big lunge whip or a brolly then so be it.....
if she bites, 'bite back' with your elbow/the rope
doing join up work with her could be very beneficial.
 
thankyou for all the sound advise, the parelli stuff doesn't interest me to be honsest (no disrespect meant).

she diddn't like the shavings fork over the rump, shot forward, snorted and kept puffing at me when I approached her.

this is all my own doing i'm sure as she was "bulshy" when I got her but because she was unhandled I was all nicey nicey, making excused for her every move becuase she "wasn't used to us" etc, etc, and gradually she has taken advantage and gotten worse.

However, it stops now - i've been more assertive with her since the last incident, she nipped me as I was putting her out yesterday morning, but a sharp growl and a swing of the rope at her made that the only one issue yesterday, there was no kicking out even when I picked her hooves which is normally when she'll give a good right hook, so hopefully things are improving.

onwards and upwards .....................
 
Great job
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In general you have to be more assertive over youngsters, They test and try you over and over again if you don't and in the end, either one or the other will get hurt ....More likely the human .

I have had missy since she was 6 months old, She was an unruly madam when I got her, walking over the top of me and not respecting my space . At feeding times she would have kicked out , She got a good wallop (more noise than anything) with the plastic shovel on the backside over the stable door and she jumped to the back of the stable, looking totally bewildered and wondered what had just happened .

Several years later at rising 4 , She is laid back, no badness in her and more importantly she has manners at feeding times .

Good luck with your youngster and so glad you didn't listen to carrot stick person
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From "I should be so ashamed Col x "

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