Youngster learns BIG CANTER and pops a few jumps *pics*

hi christmas crackers,

are you planning to buy this filly??
she looks very honest and genuine, lot for a youngster to take in, she looks like the sort that would really try for you.what is she crossed with?

whilst she looks genuine I can't help but feel she is being pushed and obviously isn't comfortable in her work. as she is part shire she could also be quite slow at maturing so am not sure I would be doing so much with her - she still looks immature. regarding the rider - she certainly doesn't look competant enough to bring on youngsters, she looks down the whole time (riders head is camparatively heavy and can offset all balance), her position is not very good:eek:. I don't tyhink 'holding' her in a contact is good idea either, teaching her self carriage would bre better.

taking things slower would be better foundation for future but if thiswoman is breeder/dealer and is braking in to sell on for profit then this is probs why she is rushing.

I will look forward to hearing on her progress and wish you and your friend all the best with her. keep us posted!!!!!!!!
 
Christmas Bulge said:
Particularly in the last 2 but in each of those jumping shots, the rider is not giving an inch with her hands. If anything, she is snatching to provide balance for her poor position. Not fair on a clearly very willing horse. At this stage a small cross pole with placing and ground poles would suffice not needing to get right up her neck and out the side door should she decide not to be so genuine.
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exactly.
 
Ha ha to whoever it was who asked me if I was going to buy her - she's too big for me ;) I'm only 5ft and a pony rider. Plus I have 3 projects of my own :) :) :)

I had been asked by the HHO admins to share my experiences with my own youngsters in an article to be published. After the response on here I don't think I will bother - clearly both myself and my instructor are incompetant.

FWIW my instructor is not in a chair seat but a defensive seat you adopt when riding a youngster. She is not a dressage instructor so does not ride like one - she events. As for her position when jumping - yes she could probably have given more with her hands though (I agree there) but the comment about her throwing herself up the horses neck - she is clearing the horses back, banging on the back if you don't fold/clear enough the horse overjumps is far worse for a youngster. But as other have said, neither me or my instructor know anything, despite all of our experience and successes :rolleyes:
 
Oh dear :(

It's not nice to hear somewhat you respect being criticised, it is, of course, very difficult to judge someone's riding through a few photos but, tbh, she does look pretty bad in these.
You dont ride youngsters in a defensive position, you ride them in a light balance to help them best.
The jumping totally unsuitable things into a puddle is something surely anyone experienced would avoid without a second thought- it does not show her in a good light
 
Christmas_Crackers said:
FWIW my instructor is not in a chair seat but a defensive seat you adopt when riding a youngster. She is not a dressage instructor so does not ride like one - she events. As for her position when jumping - yes she could probably have given more with her hands though (I agree there) but the comment about her throwing herself up the horses neck - she is clearing the horses back, banging on the back if you don't fold/clear enough the horse overjumps is far worse for a youngster. But as other have said, neither me or my instructor know anything, despite all of our experience and successes :rolleyes:
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She might be the bee knees in your eyes mate but I wouldn't let that woman within 100 miles of any of my youngsters.
 
We can only judge from the photos in front of us, and it may be that perhaps the photographer was unlucky in capturing only the most unflattering moments. Only the OP can really know whether that is the case.

However, if the photos are a real reflection of the riding skills of the instructor, and if she feels that there is nothing wrong with the photos, then I must say I would be quite wary of paying for her advice when bringing on young horses.
 
As others have a really lovely mare.

It might just be the pictures, but I would not want to see a youngster's head being held in. Perhaps pics just catch the most unflattering an incorrect aspects though.

I would also be worried about a youngster going over such uninviting and unclear jumps, no ground line, dark pole and water landing. I'm not sure this will build confidence and could cause a loss of honesty and confidence.

A lovely mare though with huge potential.
 
Christmas_Crackers said:
clearly both myself and my instructor are incompetant.
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Nobody said a word about you! Its a bit of a stroppy attitude to take to pull your article.

People just posted going on the photo's which seem to show an unbalanced rider with unforgiving hands. If it was my instructor who had been crited like that, I wouldn't get pissed off, I'd sit down and question whether the criticism (which the majority of people agreed on) was well founded or not, I'd also question if I was being taught bad habits. It can be a very close and intense relationship between teacher and student, and it can be hard to be objective about it sometimes. I agree with the poster saying that maybe the photos were taking at bad times, it does happen, and only you know if thats the case.

I don't understand the defensive seat comment, I don't see how pushing your balance incorrectly on a horses back will help its movement. I'm riding 27 years and I've never seen anyone use a defensive seat on a young horse. I'd be genuinely curious to understand how the defensive seat works? Usually I get off their backs for the first canter as they have enough trouble balancing themselves. If I'm wrong about this I'd be perfectly happy to learn and improve.
 
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Christmas_Crackers said:
FWIW my instructor is not in a chair seat but a defensive seat you adopt when riding a youngster. She is not a dressage instructor so does not ride like one - she events. As for her position when jumping - yes she could probably have given more with her hands though (I agree there) but the comment about her throwing herself up the horses neck - she is clearing the horses back, banging on the back if you don't fold/clear enough the horse overjumps is far worse for a youngster. But as other have said, neither me or my instructor know anything, despite all of our experience and successes :rolleyes:
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That is all very well and good (still not my opinion, but then perhaps you and your instructor work on a 'what's best for you' approach and not 'what is best for the horse)

Disregarding the fact that I would disagree that the way that your instructor rides is correct. You obviously feel that her riding style/ posture/ position etc is defendable and acceptable. My question would be:

Do you agree with the abismal/ wreckles jumps:
No ground pole/ plastic crates/ natural poles that look the same as the sand etc... further more the reflection of the poles in the water would run the risk of giving a false and very misleading ground line to a young and inexperienced horse. Perhaps an 'eventer' should know better? Or is this approach to instilling a horse with confidence an approach you agree with too? (sorry op, do not mean to attack you personally, just wondering if you agree with this. Also it is all very well to not want to smack down on a horses back, but thats no good if you are playing hell with their mouth, again not very 'confidence giving'. :(

MunchMincePies said:
She might be the bee knees in your eyes mate but I wouldn't let that woman within 100 miles of any of my youngsters.
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^^^^this^^^^

as someone else said, a good instructor does not a good rider make (always) If you have 3 youngsters OP, please do not let her do the braking (unless you want them broken :()
 
starbar said:
I've had a look at these pics again. Criticism around the rider aside, I think the first jumping pic is the one that makes me feel particularly uncomfortable. If this is the mare's first time over a jump, she is jumping a wonky pole the same colour as the surface, with no ground line, into water which will be reflecting the pole back at her as well. I can see the reflection in the photo. No wonder she doesn't look happy :(
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Exactly my thoughts - sorry but I was quite shocked. Why choose that place to jump in the school?
 
She looks like she's going to be a lovely horse when she's matured, I love the big draft crosses! At the moment though all I see is a big gawky baby having trouble balancing herself, let alone the unbalanced rider on board - her position isn't great as others have said.
With a filly this big I would have left her to mature until middle to end of next year, regardless of when she was born - I always judge maturity by eye not just on the calender. And am never in such a hurry to get a youngster going, especially such a big one, as you risk things like OCD by backing the larger horses too soon. I'd maybe do more inhand stuff with her, long lining etc, and some loose jumping with proper safe jumps, bits of wood etc are not a great idea with youngsters!, to help build muscle and get her balance, so she knows what to do before getting on board, unless of course you just want her sold asap so are not worried about long term soundness.
 
am i the only one finding the overreactions in this post rather amusing? i'm not going to CC the pics except to say 'love love love' the horse but do agree the jump/crates isn't terribly safe :D
what i came on to say was GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES! the way that some people dish out CC on here (which i don't think was asked for) you would think that everyone is Laura Bechtolsteimer (sp?) standard. Its easy to sit behind your computer screens and jump on a bandwagon slagging people off- but i bet a lot of you wouldn't post YOUR pics? ;) also, have seen pics of a lot of well liked forum users which are worse than this and there have been lots of oooh and ahhh lovely comments... i'm not saying that i'm amazing (i'm really not) but i am aware of my limitations and don't feel the need to dish out nasty comments on a forum when they weren't even asked for. if i was the OPs instructor and came on here and read this i'd be devastated... :(

(oh and with regards to jumping a rising 4 year old- i doubt popping a few teensy fences is going to do any lasting damage- the 4 year olds doing BYEH in May/June will be jumping 90cm courses)
 
Totally agree with diggerbez!!! well said!!

two years ago i when based in Ireland, all our horses were broken in at 3, in about 8 weeks, and were out hunting, then let off before entering the future evnt horse classes.. which are easily 1m and pretty testing, how on earth would they cope if not broken and jumping at 3?!

subsequently since moving to Australia, ive been riding the HKJC race horses..who are all 2 years old. shoot me for doing it as a job, but my point is eveyone has different ideas for training 'ideals' for young horses!!!

*hides*
 
tonkatoy said:
Totally agree with diggerbez!!! well said!!

two years ago i when based in Ireland, all our horses were broken in at 3, in about 8 weeks, and were out hunting, then let off before entering the future evnt horse classes.. which are easily 1m and pretty testing, how on earth would they cope if not broken and jumping at 3?!

subsequently since moving to Australia, ive been riding the HKJC race horses..who are all 2 years old. shoot me for doing it as a job, but my point is eveyone has different ideas for training 'ideals' for young horses!!!

*hides*
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I dont think the age of the horse is as important as the way it is brought on as a baby. An inexperienced, heavy handed rider can ruin a baby just doing a bit of schooling, whereas someone who knows what they are doing can get much more out of them and it be a positive thing for the horse.
 
Did the first canter and first jump take place on the same day???

(no criticism as i havent worked with young horses...only young ponies and havent produced a youngster of my own)
 
Christmas_Crackers said:
That's a hard one - the actually needs balancing as she is so big and unbalanced at the mo. As soon as you drop the contact on her she loses all rhythm - as long as you keep a firm contact she gains confidence from you. We start long and low with her, then bring her up and then finish long and low. Hopefully this way she will develop all the right muscles in the right places :) And she's not had any gadgets on her :)

Edit - she is only 3 - she's not capable of maintaining anything like an outline yet - false or otherwise...
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I totally agree, and by the way, she looks lovely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
UnaB said:
I dont think the age of the horse is as important as the way it is brought on as a baby. An inexperienced, heavy handed rider can ruin a baby just doing a bit of schooling, whereas someone who knows what they are doing can get much more out of them and it be a positive thing for the horse.
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hoping ive pressed the quote button correctly! that is also a valid point.... but i dont think these photos are perhaps doing the rider must justice.. i reckon if she was pictured on something more advanced her position would be better, ok so your thinking your position should be correct on an unbalanced 3 year old... but really, how many of you have a) broken a 3 yr old and b) honestly say youve adopted the correct position at all times.. (not directed at you unab just general question)!!

i admit the jump is not correct for a first time, but i do remember a post a while back from christmas_crackers with a photo of this horse striding out looking happy into the contact.. and got several praise worthy comments!!!

and just to super annoy you... its 26 degrees at 10am :-P
 
tonkatoy said:
hoping ive pressed the quote button correctly! that is also a valid point.... but i dont think these photos are perhaps doing the rider must justice.. i reckon if she was pictured on something more advanced her position would be better, ok so your thinking your position should be correct on an unbalanced 3 year old... but really, how many of you have a) broken a 3 yr old and b) honestly say youve adopted the correct position at all times.. (not directed at you unab just general question)!!

i admit the jump is not correct for a first time, but i do remember a post a while back from christmas_crackers with a photo of this horse striding out looking happy into the contact.. and got several praise worthy comments!!!

and just to super annoy you... its 26 degrees at 10am :-P
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I agree, i've avoided commenting too much about the rider as there are people far more qualified than me to do that, and my comment wasnt directly related to that. Though, i do have a thing about being careful not to catch a horses mouth over the jump and those jumping pics did make me cringe a bit as the horse does look to be getting pulled over each fence... But pics can be decieving.

I have broken a three (rising 4) year old and knowing my limitations and also the horses limitation physically and mentally I have done nothing more than gentle hacking, with all of her "schooling" done whilst hacking - bending, outline, transitions, collecting etc etc. She has accepted it all very well and whilst its far from the professional way of doing things, it has worked well for us. Im in no rush to get her going "properly" so even now at 4 & 1/2 she is only at the same point in her education as the horse in this thread, however i dont see that as a bad thing myself. Yes, horses can be started early and have no ill effects. My connemara was broken and hunting at 2 until he was well into his 3rd year when i bought him. Then I competed him very seriously in eventing and showjumping until he was about 14, so he had a pretty busy life! If anything was going to go wrong it would have, but he's 18 now and never had a day lame other than jumping injuries and will still pass a vetting! BUT, just because it hasnt affecting him doing so much so young, doesnt make it right for me to push my own youngster as a 3yr old like he was, especially as I have no reason to. If I was planning to get her out jumping as a 4 yr old she would of course have to be a bit more established, so I can see both sides and i dont think any is right or wrong, but like I said, i think its how you do it that can make or break the horse.
 
Me riding horribly badly on my four year old which I had just rebacked. This is probably his second canter ever in his whole life. I should watch without sound or you'll get a lot of me screeching!

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=570275164695

In support of OP really. My position is awful, the transition is awful. Everything is horrible. Horse is perfectly happy and going nicely now days. It isn't always easy to look good on something young!

Feel free to bash me as much as you like
 
Diggerbez took the words straight out of my mouth.

Gosh if every person that produced and broke horses in professionally (and I mean the pro's) just so happened to post a few random photos on here when the horse has not been photographed 'at it's best' or taken when the horse is asked to do something new for the first time, some of you lot would have a field day, god help them.

Not everyone is blessed with great facilities and lovely big arenas, some people have to make do with what they have and can afford, even if it's not up to everyone elses standards.

Puddles in an arena? well who’d of thought it eh and expecting a young creature of that size to jump into one, well that’s just down right cruelty.

Let’s hope the OP never wants to take the horse hunting shall we :rolleyes:
 
Kenzo said:
Not everyone is blessed with great facilities and lovely big arenas, some people have to make do with what they have and can afford, even if it's not up to everyone elses standards.

Puddles in an arena? well who’d of thought it eh and expecting a young creature of that size to jump into one, well that’s just down right cruelty.

Let’s hope the OP never wants to take the horse hunting shall we :rolleyes:
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But we were told this was the horse's first time jumping, so a sensible trainer would surely try and set everything up in the horse's favour, to ensure the horse jumps first time and has a nice experience. So for a first time jump that would include a groundline, nothing distracting like a puddle on the landing side, and nothing that could hurt the horse if it gets it wrong. Once the horse is jumping simple fences confidently, then you can increase the demands by asking it to jump into water etc. All this can be done without having expensive facilities and is surely just common sense.
 
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