Youngster woes & WOW saddles?

Llee94

Llee94

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So two months ago my youngster freaked out of the blue while hacking which was so unlike him. Turned out he was in a lot of pain so had that all sorted and he has been a complete star ever since...until today. I took him into the schooling field and he walked out in hand fine, if a little looky. Stood perfectly while I got legged up and sorted my girth and then suddenly he launched - anyone seen the video of the racehorse on the beach leaping into the air? Well mine did a very good impression of this horse! He did this twice about 2 minutes apart from each other and was then quiet as a mouse and walked over all the poles no problem. He is normally such a good boy and doesn't have a mean bone in his body so it was very unnerving when he did this.
He had his back done on Wednesday and although a little tight they said he was generally okay. Teeth all check and no problems there.
I do think his current saddle is maybe pinching him as he doesn't behave like this any other time and he wasn't overly happy about me putting it on him today. Don't really know much about WOW saddles but horse can only take 17" and I really need 17.5" and this is the only saddle I know that you have have a larger seat on smaller panels. I also like how adjustable they are. Are they a good investment? I think I will have to get one new as I have a very specific saddle in mind (paul tapner XC saddle) so it will be a lot of money I will have to find from somewhere.
On a side note, if it turns out this is not saddle related, does anyone have any tips to stop him from doing this? I am normally a brave rider but I must admit he had me in tears today. He is supposed to be my next event horse so I really need him to get over this sharpish so that we can crack on with getting ready for him to event when my current horse retires in a year or so.
 
He was in pain two months ago. He had a tight back on Wednesday. I'd be getting back x rays and exploring SI and hock/PSD issues before I spent £2,600 on a new WOW saddle.
 
ycbm said:
He was in pain two months ago. He had a tight back on Wednesday. I'd be getting back x rays and exploring SI and hock/PSD issues before I spent £2,600 on a new WOW saddle.
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He was in pain due to a kick to the chest which it turned out had caused him to be tight in the neck and shoulders. On Wednesday he was tight along the side of his ribcage but she said his back seemed fine.
The vets unfortunately get to see him quite frequently due to him being quite accident prone. But yes I do agree that X-rays are probably the best route to go down before buying a new saddle.
 
Llee94 said:
He was in pain due to a kick to the chest which it turned out had caused him to be tight in the neck and shoulders. On Wednesday he was tight along the side of his ribcage but she said his back seemed fine.
The vets unfortunately get to see him quite frequently due to him being quite accident prone. But yes I do agree that X-rays are probably the best route to go down before buying a new saddle.
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If the vet finds nothing, I'm a absolute fan of WOWs and the brand new ones are kilos lighter than anything currently available second hand. Having said that, a pair of Tapner flaps has been on Preloved for a while, and it might be cheaper to buy a new light seat, a pair of newish panels and those flaps. What do you plan to do flatwork in, though?

I hope you find an answer and recover your confidence in him.
 
If his back was tight, (meaning sore? ....I mean if my back was 'tight' I know id be in pain) on Wednesday then he is not fit to ride yet. I think people underestimate how long 'soreness', 'tightness' and general muscular problems take to resolve and (and this is a big AND) only if the source of the 'tightness' has been resolved. In this case you say it was due to a kick, so the source has been resolved and you are just waiting for his body to catch up. Let me tell you, and this is just for comparisons sake, I was crouching down holding up my horses front leg putting some thrush spray on over a week ago. God knows what happened but the next thing I knew he had spooked, broken the leadrope and had knocked me flying. He didn't land on me or hurt me in anyway, but he unbalanced me by pulling his leg away and I landed hard right on my left seat bone. It's over a week later and I am still in pain a) from my bruised seat bone and b) muscular pain all over due to the jarring effects/me holding myself differently due to pain. I am now having to see my chiro tomorrow and anticipate a further week of residual pain before things settle down. So just to compare, you have given your horse four days to recover and be rideable, when my injury, although not the same and not a bad one by any means, will have taken two to three weeks. You mention two months ago he was in lots of pain, that is only eight weeks ago, with a potential pinching saddle still and Now a kick to contend with he has not had enough healing time from the original problem. Things take longer than want to accept!
Also, IF you suspect his saddle is pinching him in any way, stop using it immediately otherwise his back problems will never go away! If this is so, it's likely this is the cause of the back tightness and not the kick.
 
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I agree with the others that you need to be as sure as possible that the horse is no longer sore or tight etc.

I love wow's - have you ever ridden in one OP?

The XC flaps are very forward cut - unless you are only doing fast work all of the time with your bum out of the saddle I would think again and go for either a jumping flap or a GP, the jumping flap is cut at the same angle at the front as the GP but the GP is cut differently at the back so it can be usefull for flat and jumping. I personally would go for a GP on a young horse
 
I'm a WOW fan but in this case save your money in the first instance!

Borrow a different saddle, have it slightly on the wide side, pad it out well.
Then consider your girthing - I think often this can cause an issue. Get a good padded, wide, ergonomic girth. Take your time in tightening and walk the horse around before mounting.

I've known a few that were like this and yes it was just saddle/girthing issue
 
Thank you all!

He is getting booked into the vets for a full work up just to make sure there is nothing more sinister going on.
My back lady said to leave him a few days and then get on but obviously I didn't leave him long enough!
He has had 3 bates saddles in various styles, a kentaur, a keiffer, an equipe and a fusion saddle since being broken in last autumn (i have quite a collection and can also borrow off friends) so they do get checked and changed regularly when needed. He has been happy with the current saddle (old style bates event) for a few weeks and he happily hacked out in it last weekend with no issues at all. This is the first time he has shown any sort of discomfort in this saddle and I will not be riding in it again.
They are all fitted slightly wide and I then ride with a double thickness polypad underneath and a prolite pad if needed but he changes shape very rapidly.

Never ridden in a wow but have sat in them at Badminton. I event already and really don't have the money to buy a gp wow and then buy a event one later on so I will just have to take the plunge on the one i will need in the end for when he is eventing. I have no problem doing flatwork in a jumping saddle for a while until I save up more pennies for a dressage one.
Can anyone recommend a good wow fitter in the South west for after he has been given the all clear?
 
I have a couple of WOWs. An XC and a GP.
I feel more secure in the XC than I do the GP and have used it for all phases of eventing. I find as the flaps are so minimalist it is very easy to do dressage in :)
Also, an XC one is very sale-able compared to a GP if you needed to sell it in the future.
 
Quick update.
Youngster went to the vets this afternoon. Nothing was found in his back. No soreness and nothing showed up on the x-rays. He is slightly foot sore when trotting on a circle on concrete but vet says this is just bruised soles and has recommended putting shoes on him. Put a saddle on him but he showed no reaction what so ever even when the girth was done up as tight as possible.

Vet wants him scoped for ulcers and I am praying they find something (not that I want anything bad but I would rather pain over him being naughty!) as at least I can fix pain, I'm not so sure about fixing the naughty bit!
So this means my poor baby is having his first ever night away from home and is getting starved for the duration. Fingers crossed we can get to the bottom of this and crack on with getting him ready for eventing.
 
Good luck, I hope whatever it is can be easily fixed. Its surprising how often ulcers can look like saddle issues of hind limb lameness/SI problems.
 
He is slightly foot sore when trotting on a circle on concrete but vet says this is just bruised soles and has recommended putting shoes on him.
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Of you want some of us to give you advice how to manage his diet to strengthen his feet instead of going for shoes as a first resort, then just ask.
 
Am I missing something if a horses back can only carry a 17 inch saddle , how will a saddle with a bigger seat and smaller panels help ?
 
Balance International do a lovely saddle that can be fitted with slightly shorter panels and a larger seat - the Felix model.
Vets seem to be trained to recommend shoes as their default setting. As above, look at other aspects of the horses management and at hoof boots before you decide to shoe.
 
Goldenstar, according to most saddle fitters, the horse's back should not carry weight beyond where the last rib joins the spine. With a WOW saddle you can fit a panel one size smaller than the seat without unbalancing the saddle for the rider. I routinely ride on size two seats on size one panels. The panels have such a large surface that a bigger panel isn't necessary. The cantle just finishes a bit further back than the end of the panel to look at, they ride no different.
 
ycbm said:
Goldenstar, according to most saddle fitters, the horse's back should not carry weight beyond where the last rib joins the spine. With a WOW saddle you can fit a panel one size smaller than the seat without unbalancing the saddle for the rider. I routinely ride on size two seats on size one panels. The panels have such a large surface that a bigger panel isn't necessary. The cantle just finishes a bit further back than the end of the panel to look at, they ride no different.
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But why would that help OP if the horse needs a length of 17 inches and OP needs 17 and a half why would a bigger seat and smaller panel help .
 
Goldenstar I'm not really sure what you mean - if the panel is 17 inches and the seat is 18 then why wouldn't this help the OP? The bit that sits on the horse is the correct length for the horse and the rider has a larger area to sit so win win?

Or do you have another theory?
 
Goldenstar said:
But why would that help OP if the horse needs a length of 17 inches and OP needs 17 and a half why would a bigger seat and smaller panel help .
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If the rider needs a 17.5 seat and the horse can only take a 17 inch panel, you can fit a17 inch panel to the bigger seat. I'm confused why you don't think that would help/work?
 
ycbm said:
If the rider needs a 17.5 seat and the horse can only take a 17 inch panel, you can fit a17 inch panel to the bigger seat. I'm confused why you don't think that would help/work?
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Because the seat of the saddle governs its length .so if the biggest saddle a horse can take is 17 inches that's the seat length . I can't see how an 17 and half inch seat on a 17 inch panel will help .
 
Goldenstar said:
Because the seat of the saddle governs its length .so if the biggest saddle a horse can take is 17 inches that's the seat length . I can't see how an 17 and half inch seat on a 17 inch panel will help .
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Im not 100% sure on how it works but that is what I was told I needed from the WOW fitters at badminton. I can't fit into a 17" saddle as I am long in the leg so this was the only solution I could find.

Youngster was scoped this morning and they found ulcers which is a bit of a relief. I always thought he may get them (though I have tried my hardest to prevent them with specialist food and supplements) as he is a bit of a worrier so hopefully it doesn't stem from any pain. The ulcers are not that bad but enough for the vet to think this is the cause of the behaviour so at least I can treat them and then hopefully get cracking!
 
ycbm said:
Of you want some of us to give you advice how to manage his diet to strengthen his feet instead of going for shoes as a first resort, then just ask.
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Thank you. He is currently on Dengie healthy Tummy, Ulsakind cubes, feed balancer, gastri-aid, oil and limestone flour but I am open to all suggestions!
I think shoes will be inevitable though as he is quite long in the pastern and my vet, physio and osteopath have said this is putting strain on his tendons and ligaments so the sooner I can get them on the better to help support them.
 
Goldenstar said:
Because the seat of the saddle governs its length .so if the biggest saddle a horse can take is 17 inches that's the seat length . I can't see how an 17 and half inch seat on a 17 inch panel will help .
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There are some saddle brands that provide a few models with panels that are shorter than the seat - as a saddle fitter I wouldn't tell a customer that the horse can only cope with a 17" saddle because some models they might be able to cope with a 17.5 and some models they might only cope with a 16.5"

This is an Albion Kontact Lite http://www.albionsaddlemakers.co.uk/saddles/jumping-range/kontact-dual-1.html

and this is an Albion K2 Jump http://www.albionsaddlemakers.co.uk/new-albion-k2-jump.html

If you look at the panels on these two saddles you can clearly see that the Kontact Lite has panels that finish in front of the end of the seat and the Albion K2 Jump has panels that come out behind the seat. So the Kontact Lite has a smaller footprint and the weight bearing surface does not cover the same length as the K2. Meaning that if the rider had longer legs but the horse was small then a Kontact Lite might work where a K2 of the same seat size would be too long for the horse.

There are several manufacturers that make models with smaller footprints to overcome this type of fitting issue.

One of them is Wow - and with Wow it is simple because the panels can be a full inch shorter than the tree and seat size therefore the length of the part that sits on the horse is one inch shorter than the length of the seat
 
Wheels said:
There are some saddle brands that provide a few models with panels that are shorter than the seat - as a saddle fitter I wouldn't tell a customer that the horse can only cope with a 17" saddle because some models they might be able to cope with a 17.5 and some models they might only cope with a 16.5"

This is an Albion Kontact Lite http://www.albionsaddlemakers.co.uk/saddles/jumping-range/kontact-dual-1.html

and this is an Albion K2 Jump http://www.albionsaddlemakers.co.uk/new-albion-k2-jump.html

If you look at the panels on these two saddles you can clearly see that the Kontact Lite has panels that finish in front of the end of the seat and the Albion K2 Jump has panels that come out behind the seat. So the Kontact Lite has a smaller footprint and the weight bearing surface does not cover the same length as the K2. Meaning that if the rider had longer legs but the horse was small then a Kontact Lite might work where a K2 of the same seat size would be too long for the horse.

There are several manufacturers that make models with smaller footprints to overcome this type of fitting issue.

One of them is Wow - and with Wow it is simple because the panels can be a full inch shorter than the tree and seat size therefore the length of the part that sits on the horse is one inch shorter than the length of the seat
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Thank you .
 
Llee94 said:
Thank you. He is currently on Dengie healthy Tummy, Ulsakind cubes, feed balancer, gastri-aid, oil and limestone flour but I am open to all suggestions!
I think shoes will be inevitable though as he is quite long in the pastern and my vet, physio and osteopath have said this is putting strain on his tendons and ligaments so the sooner I can get them on the better to help support them.
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If your balancer contains either iron or manganese, and does not contain high levels of copper, zinc and magnesium, (and for me, yeast) then I would swap to one which does.

I would also ask your farrier and vet to explain the mechanics of exactly how putting shoes on his feet will support the tendons and ligaments in his pasterns and higher, because I don't understand how it does that. They will possibly tell you something about the branches of the shoe extending a little way beyond the heel, but if the horse was stood on the ground instead of stood on a shoe, the ground extends beyond the heel as far as the eye can see. It's an argument I've yet to hear a convincing argument for.
 
Personally I'd be getting the saddle checked most urgent of all as you already think it may not fit right and horses can go mental with a bady fitting saddle (and yes I've been badly chucked off an explosive pony due to a badly fitting saddle, even though it had been fitted only days before by a supposed professional!). If the fitter finds the saddle really does not fit and could be causing the issue then I'd probably borrow a WOW or any other saddle if possible (one that does fit) to see if it fixes the issue. If not, I'd get the vet and if so, well you've saved yourself a big vets bill!

I love my WOW personally.
 
Goldenstar said:
Because the seat of the saddle governs its length .so if the biggest saddle a horse can take is 17 inches that's the seat length . I can't see how an 17 and half inch seat on a 17 inch panel will help .
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There are several ways to achieve this, I can only comment on the two ways that we use. The first is to lengthen the seat on a standard saddle by extending the cantle. Where the cantle is laid back on a flatter seat it will give more room, however it doesn't move the deepest part of the seat back, so it doesn't always provide more room for usual riding, it can provide more room to slide back on a jump saddle. On a saddle with a deeper seat and a more upright cantle it makes the seat deeper. The seat will measure more, the tree is still the original size, and the panel is still the original size - so a 17" tree, a 17.5" seat, and a panel that might be 19" long.

The other option is to make a much more upswept panel, with or without rear gussets. In my experience this can shorten the footprint by around an inch, so you'd have a 17" tree, and a 17" seat as it is unaltered, but the panel would measure 18".
 
Just a quick update for those that are interested :)
X-rays where all clear on his back when the vets looked at him. He was a little unlevel on the hard on a circle but vet thinks this is just foot soreness.
He was scoped and found to have grade 3 ulcers which explains his explosive behaviour!
I finally climbed back on board last thursday after he was given the go ahead by the vet and lunged a lot and he was good as gold which was a massive relief as I was very nervous about getting back on him. We only plodded around the arena while my instructor held on to the end of a lunge line but now I have done it I am feeling much more positive and not worried about getting back on him anymore!
I have the physio & farrier coming to see him next week as well as being re-scoped to see how the ulcers are doing and I have managed to get my dream WOW saddle at a great price and that is due to be fitted on the 8th.
Fingers crossed he continues being a super star and we never have the stag leaps and bronking again!
 
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