Youngsters: 'over handling' v. poor handling

[soloequestrian]

When I've asked for advice about handling my youngster, often the suggested solution is to 'just leave her alone (to be a horse)'. It has been suggested that over-handled horses are likely to turn out difficult. I have doubts about this - lots of young horses do things like showing and of course at the extreme end, race horses are in training well before they are two - they don't necessarily end up with behavioural problems because of this. Could it be that horses that are classed as 'over handled' are actually just being poorly handled and that within reason, handling at early stages is not necessarily detrimental and can actually (usually? always if it is well done?) produce a horse that is well prepared for future training?
Discuss!

 

[SpringArising]

Could it be that horses that are classed as 'over handled' are actually just being poorly handled and that within reason, handling at early stages is not necessarily detrimental and can actually (usually? always if it is well done?) produce a horse that is well prepared for future training?

Absolutely.

 

[Goldenstar]

Over handling is a form of poor handling .

 

[Cortez]

Having bred horses for many years (not now!) and also broken and trained young horses for clients, I have had a lot of youngsters. Given the choice, I prefer them to be minimally handled - by this I don't mean untouched; my own foals/yearlings/two year olds were only handled for worming, farrier, vaccs and occasionally caught up for pasture changes, etc. But horses which have been fussed over, "imprinted", ground-worked or whatever are inevitably more difficult to get going. Some are downright spoiled and even dangerous - a happy medium would be best of all, but this seems an impossible dream nowadays

 

[AdorableAlice]

Many people have no idea how to raise a young horse with the end result being a 4 year old monster with no idea how to lead, step aside or respect the handlers space. It is not rocket science to teach a weanling basic manners and maintain the manners through the years to breaking. They don't forget if they are taught correctly and they certainly don't need drilling too frequently.

My youngsters, one of which is a really difficult type, had their feet trimmed 6 weeks ago and again yesterday. None of them have been handled between trims. They run into a barn to feed and rest and have a broodmare living with them to keep order. Their manners remain good and when Spring arrives I will do more with them.

What amazes me it the number of owners who think a barging, pocket searching, in your face horse is normal.

 

[Wagtail]

I think it also depends on personality and temperament. I have cared for a few horses from foals and can honestly say what works with one doesn't necessarily work for others. If possible I like to teach the basic handling then leave as much as possible without too much handling. However, I have one at the minute who is lovely if handled daily, but awful if left for even a week or two. It's almost as if you have to go through the whole manners training again. But he's an exception. I have never known a horse that constantly tests its boundaries like this one does. I can't work out if he's sharp and intelligent or thick as a plank.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

It is easy for youngsters to learn bad things from humans. If the humans don't know what they are doing, almost any youngster will take advantage.
I still have the scars from a chestnut mare who had only been "handled" by her novice owner breeder, she was 600kg of aggression without malice, and we had quite a time turning her in to 525kg of racehorse [slow unfortunately]. She was a lovely ride so I hope she found a good hunting home.
My mare had a foal [immaculate conception!] and once I got the foal to accept me we had great fun when she was still wiith mum but as I had no weaning facilites I used to take them for walks independently and together, we did all sorts, including free schooling over cross poles.
I would allow them to "be horses", but never "cross the line" When being handled, like any "child" they will test the boundaries. No treats. If they are are "naughty", the reprimand is immediate, appropriate, not excessive.
No treats.

 

[Rhodders]

I got my Welsh d as a unhandled yearling 4 years ago. It took me a couple of weeks to get him to come to me but once he did a pattern was set. I would leave him out being a horse for weeks on end, I never started any serious learning until he was 3.5. I backed him last March and I haven't had one moments trouble. I hacked him till October, turned him away and am hoping to pick up where we left off next month. I was very lucky, I have no idea what over/under doing it is but for him/and me this seems to have worked

 

[Maesfen]

When I've asked for advice about handling my youngster, often the suggested solution is to 'just leave her alone (to be a horse)'. It has been suggested that over-handled horses are likely to turn out difficult. I have doubts about this - lots of young horses do things like showing and of course at the extreme end, race horses are in training well before they are two - they don't necessarily end up with behavioural problems because of this.

But the instances you quote of showing and young racehorses doesn't necessarily mean they are over handled but that they are handled in a routined professional manner which means they are likely to be better mannered than something that is handled by someone who can't leave the poor thing alone and badly handles it into the bargain.

I much prefer to teach the absolute basics and then leave them alone, only using what they have already learnt such as behaving for the vet/farrier, leading, been taught to be nice people and so on; they don't need to be bamboozled with more stuff which is actually only satisfying the owner and which is not necessary to the safety of anyone handling that youngster.

 

[shadowboy]

My rising 4 year old was minimally handled until I bought him when he turned three. He's been the hardest youngster I've ever had. He's bolshy, backward thinking, and would much rather be with horses than people. He wasn't untouched but had never really been tought to do anything other than be caught and led to a different field and have feet picked out. Everything had taken 3x more effort than a youngster who knows the basics- to tie up, load, stand to be groomed and have rugs on etc especially now he's big and very strong.

 

[stencilface]

This makes me feel better about the semi feral rising 3yo ponies I have who get haltered maybe once a week, and feet done every 8 weeks, I'll make sure I bring them in and do their a couple of times in the weeks leading up to the farrier just to make sure they'll be good?

I'm planning on doing more when I have some time in the summer. I have bitted one a few times and can lean over them and put rugs etc over. The pony is straightforward, the mule far more suspicious and challenging, a good thing to make me question everything!

 

[Sukistokes2]

My youngster was unhandled up to a year old. He was then handled regularly by me. I needed him to be safe. So he was halter broken and taught to lead. From 1-4 he was handled often and taught the basics. He was taught all the things I needed him to know in order to be my riding horse, the things I think are vital, like standing tied, standing for the farrier , being respectful and calm. I also taught him about rugs and tack. Once he was four he was backed and I think all the work I had done with him helped him with his transition to his working life. He was however also given plenty of time to be a horse and while he had no young friends to play with(he played with my mums dog, a leonburger and they still play chase now) he had my elderly mare to act as his guardian and his second Mum to really show him how to behave. So I really do not think handling done in the correct way is wrong, it is in someways beneficial, however do is time to allow the youngster to be just a horse and time to take on board what it is being shown.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Minimal handling until breaking is best. Else they have no respect and become difficult! I hate the ones for schooling and breaking who are over handled and disrespectful. Makes the job much harder

 

[popsdosh]

Minimal handling until breaking is best. Else they have no respect and become difficult! I hate the ones for schooling and breaking who are over handled and disrespectful. Makes the job much harder

Totally agree!!
Just one point on youngsters showing ,In a previous incarnation I used to show hunter breeding but eventually gave up as I saw to often young horses who frankly were ruined by the experience some become very sour and you have ruined them forever.

I think it is even more important to back off the handling for people who are not used to dealing with babies as it is a very fine line. I know it is exciting for you having a new youngster but if I am honest ever since you first posted prior to getting your youngster I have been concerned as you are obviously very inexperienced with youngsters.It is very easy to believe you should be doing this that and the other but as others have said it often leads to issues down the line. Have you ever heard about hand reared foals being difficult sometimes well over handling youngsters has the same effect they look on you as their playmate and do not respect you. Sorry but I suspect from the previous threads I dont think you are hearing the answers you are waiting for.
I personally will never sell foals to inexperienced handlers as I dont think its fair on the person or the horse.

 

[Carrots&Mints]

My section d is 4 this year and I've had him since he was a yearling. He's very well mannered. Up till 3 he was taught to walk politely down the lane and leading into the field, taught to tie up and be groomed, had his feet picked up etc, bathed and taken to shows so knows how to travel with our without company. Then late last year so 3.5 years he's been lunged long lined and sat on early this year and he has fab manners. Not too much handling but enough not to be battling with a 4 year old strong section d. He's knows I'm boss and respects me. He does get a telling off when miss behaving.

I couldn't think of anything worse than starting him at 3/4 year old I'm not messing around with a 4 year old who doesn't know what anything is I would be flattened haha cx

 

[Carrots&Mints]

Minimal handling until breaking is best. Else they have no respect and become difficult! I hate the ones for schooling and breaking who are over handled and disrespectful. Makes the job much harder

I disagree, I have handled mine since yearling now in the process of being broken in (rising 4) and he's foot perfect and behaves impeccably

 

[popsdosh]

I disagree, I have handled mine since yearling now in the process of being broken in (rising 4) and he's foot perfect and behaves impeccably

The key words are minimal handling, you can do everything you suggest but not everyday or every week .
We back large horses so give me a feral unhandled 4yo any day rather than a mishandled(over) 4yo. At least the feral one learns correctly from the start

 

[YorksG]

I have two Appy mares, one 19,bought age9 and a rising 5 year old, bought at 3. I know the breeders of the older mare, they 'imprint' pick feet out from day one etc. She is one of the most mannerly horses I know, and the siblings I know of are the same. The rising 5 year old was backed at 3, in approx 6 weeks, going from uncatchable, herded onto transport when the breeders moved, to ridden. There were enormous gaps in her manners, knowledge and education. She has not been ridden since July 2013 and will be re-backed this spring, having had a lot of work done over the last two years.

 

[muckypony]

I disagree with the idea of 'over-handling' . I've had my two since weanlings and they are now rising 3. The live in over night so are handled daily. They are impeccably behaved. People always comment on their behaviour. They are shetands, whether this makes a difference I don't know. They have been to shows, go out for walks, I even put a cub saddle on the other week to see what happened, still perfect!

On the other hand, I have a 6yo section D who, to my knowledge, was 'minimally' handled. When got him at just 5, he was bargy, nappy, and just down right rude. 18 months on he is wonderful but its taken a long tine and he is so obsessed with me. He wants to be right next to me in the stable all the time, very 'in your face' but also very cute! I honestly think he was deprived on affection as a youngster and is making up for it now!

 

[Dry Rot]

We have a very friendly cheeky foal here who runs up to everyone for scratches and treats. She was becoming a spoilt kid, turning her backside if she did not get her own way. That has been sorted out by putting her back with the herd. She is still very friendly but has learnt manners. The colts go in with the stallion and they are also very nice and respectful. There is nothing to beat horse to horse learning and if they don't have respect, a little fear is a reasonable substitute until they learn the boundaries.

 

[Luci07]

The worst horses I have consistently seen were pets that came into being backed. Where they had been fussed, picked up and down, they all had massive issues when they had to professionally broken. The ones who had been horses growing up, given basics all accepted the next stage much happily. You either do one or the other but you can't fuss a lot, drop and then fuss again.

 

[soloequestrian]

Thanks all - interesting reading! I can see how working with a horse that has been spoilt is going to be much more difficult than with one that hasn't been touched, but that doesn't mean that handling youngsters necessarily spoils them! Most of the posts on here about difficult youngsters seem to involve them coming from elsewhere to be broken and perhaps that's the key point - if a horse has become difficult due to poor handling, it will be sent to someone more experienced, so those people who are taking on these horses will almost inevitably have a much worse impression of horses from elsewhere than of their own. The ones that are well handled and easy are much more likely to continue their training in their home environment and so not be seen by the 'professionals'.

 

[Rebecca88]

When I brought my 3 year old he hadn't been handled, just a head collar on him. He's 6 now and he was the easiest most laid back horse to break in. Started ground work with him as soon as I got him, he couldn't even pick his feet up. I do think a lot of it is to do with temperament and personality.

 

[Maesfen]

Thanks all - interesting reading! I can see how working with a horse that has been spoilt is going to be much more difficult than with one that hasn't been touched, but that doesn't mean that handling youngsters necessarily spoils them! Most of the posts on here about difficult youngsters seem to involve them coming from elsewhere to be broken and perhaps that's the key point - if a horse has become difficult due to poor handling, it will be sent to someone more experienced, so those people who are taking on these horses will almost inevitably have a much worse impression of horses from elsewhere than of their own. The ones that are well handled and easy are much more likely to continue their training in their home environment and so not be seen by the 'professionals'.

But therein lies the crunch and I'm afraid I have to agree with Popdosh that the answers you have been given by the more professional of us (by that I mean those that earn their living from handling horses day in day out so know from experience what they are talking about) are not what you want to hear.

Nowadays with so many novices taking on and breaking their own youngsters, I would hazard a guess that less than 50% of them actually have the knowledge to do so which means an awful lot of horses are being badly handled and broken hence why you see so many posting about problems they are having which are totally elementary problems that would not have arisen if the animal concerned had not been over handled by someone who did not know what they were doing in the first place.
None of us mean they should run wild as in feral but that the minimum of teaching the basics which, well taught will last them all of their lives is totally sufficient; to do more runs the risk of them becoming too 'immune' and losing their respect for their handler. The old saying of don't ask a boy to do a man's work is as true for their state of mind as their limbs and it behoves everyone to proceed with caution unless you want to spoil them forever.

 

[Goldenstar]

The key words are minimal handling, you can do everything you suggest but not everyday or every week .
We back large horses so give me a feral unhandled 4yo any day rather than a mishandled(over) 4yo. At least the feral one learns correctly from the start

I used to work where we broke a lot of horses .
We got allocated horses to work with and there was a rush to be somewhere else when the boss allocated a homebred four or five year .

 

[Adina]

I only breed the occasional foal. They have all been handled when with mother, spend first winter stabled (with turn-out)and then live out until 4yrs. Handling means learning respect, leading and picking feet up. Rule is: if I wouldn't let a 17hh horse do it, then I will not allow the cute foal to do it. Its very black and white. A rubber feed skip is very useful for a swift wallop up the bottom if the cheeky colt tries to bite. But a little neck scratch for respectful behaviour. I have a complete grill across the stable door. I tell people its to stop him jumping out, but it was really to stop people giving him kisses on the nose! Some people can be so dim. This third foal was weaned 3 weeks ago and is living out with a TB weanling colt. This colt had been "left to be a horse" when with his mother, so minimal handling. I went to visit them. What a difference in behaviour! The TB although friendly, grabbed mouthfuls of my clothing and barged, as if I wasn't there. My boy was so polite.

 

[minkymoo]

Minimal handling until breaking is best. Else they have no respect and become difficult! I hate the ones for schooling and breaking who are over handled and disrespectful. Makes the job much harder

I totally disagree. I got my youngster when he was 8 months old. He came to my livery yard where he was turned out with a lovely sensible older horse until he was big enough to go out with the others, he learnt his herd manners with them.

I regularly handled him, tied up, feet picked up & washed, groomed, led etc. I expect my horse to behave like my child and realise they're going to be naughty every so often, but I want them to have basic manners. I don't think it's too much to expect.

People often comment on how well-mannered he is - same with my child. It makes me very proud that I have moulded them that way. You can only work with what you've got and personality goes a long way when it comes to that!

 

[popsdosh]

I used to work where we broke a lot of horses .
We got allocated horses to work with and there was a rush to be somewhere else when the boss allocated a homebred four or five year .

Ha ha not saying its ideal but always think its easier than one that has not been handled correctly .

 

[popsdosh]

I totally disagree. I got my youngster when he was 8 months old. He came to my livery yard where he was turned out with a lovely sensible older horse until he was big enough to go out with the others, he learnt his herd manners with them.

I regularly handled him, tied up, feet picked up & washed, groomed, led etc. I expect my horse to behave like my child and realise they're going to be naughty every so often, but I want them to have basic manners. I don't think it's too much to expect.

People often comment on how well-mannered he is - same with my child. It makes me very proud that I have moulded them that way. You can only work with what you've got and personality goes a long way when it comes to that!

No body has disagreed with handling them ! If they are handled correctly as foals it never leaves them it does not have to be every day,week or month for that matter . They however very soon lose respect for the handler if it is done incorrectly or to much and then that is when problems start.

 

[Carrots&Mints]

The key words are minimal handling, you can do everything you suggest but not everyday or every week .
We back large horses so give me a feral unhandled 4yo any day rather than a mishandled(over) 4yo. At least the feral one learns correctly from the start

I think there is a difference between over handling and miss handling.