P3LH
Well-Known Member
Have they changed much? If so, how? Have they deviated away from their original purpose? Discuss/share photos. This will probably bore many of you as a thread, but for any dog history needs as myself - you may enjoy joining in about your chosen breeds too.
In terms of rough collies, I have attached an image of the famous ladypark dogs. Probably the best of their day. Roughs are interesting as in the main, the modern dogs or ‘European type’ resembles nothing of the original dogs physically or mentally. Many are tiny, short in the back and loin, huge coats, completely different heads and neurotic. There are breeders who, with clever blending of different imported dogs with old British lines, have created solid lines of ‘classic collies’ Much more like the ladypark dogs.
My sable dog has a big coat, but is generally moderate in other senses. My departed blue boy looked straight out of the sixties with the long head and short coat. Their history is interesting, and I think quite fabled from my research over the years. I think the narrative of them as a herding dog in the wilds of Scotland is quite romanticised, I think those hardy scottish collies talked about were certainly their ancestors but it is my understanding from several long standing breeders - that what we know as rough collies were really only ever bred to be a glamorous show dog. I suppose you could consider them the original and poshest lurcher as those hardy scotch collies were infused heavily with sighthound, mainly borzoi and apparently some setter too - to create even the ‘classic’ collie people remember and love.
In terms of Pembroke corgis I have attached Rozavel lucky strike. He’s probably one of, if not, the most influential sires in the breed. It is said he really directed the ‘post war’ version of the breed. Prior to this, they varied greatly as is often documented in childhood photos of the queen with their corgis which at that point were only recently registered and therefore only starting to breed to type. My dear departed granny was a very old Welsh native and always said that before being selectively bred they were cur-gi and just that, really a scatter bred farm dog that did a bit of everything, a bit like modern day russells. Some lines of corgi originally were very terrier looking and resemble the solid red Jack russells you still see today, other lines were larger, rangier and seemingly quite collie infused, others had slightly bull terrier aspects to them (brindle and white with almost an EBT head and front)- there really was no type prior to breeders like Thelma Grey taking hold of them, the only true factor was the short legs and the natural Bob tail - and the inherit ‘nip and duck’ motion which they became famous as heelers for. Originally the corgi was a teckel type dog, which the cardigan version hails from. The Pembroke version came from this dog breeding with small spitz types, like schipperkes and the such, brought to wales by Flemish weavers - creating two distinct types even the line.
Nowadays some lines of corgis are - in my opinion, ridiculous and are too long, with no legs, huge barrel chests, and daft big teddy bear heads with almost bulging eyes. Thankfully there are still some lines that are sturdy, sensible - true corgis. When we talk about the change in pembrokes, they are definitely lower than they were but it’s difficult to tell if this is in reality or just appearance - as we have bred them to be much more solid, and bulky dogs with more substance and bone than they ever would have - particularly with their chest and fronts, which always makes me wonder if that makes them appear lower than they are. I much prefer the old corgi heads, they are supposed to be foxy after all
In terms of rough collies, I have attached an image of the famous ladypark dogs. Probably the best of their day. Roughs are interesting as in the main, the modern dogs or ‘European type’ resembles nothing of the original dogs physically or mentally. Many are tiny, short in the back and loin, huge coats, completely different heads and neurotic. There are breeders who, with clever blending of different imported dogs with old British lines, have created solid lines of ‘classic collies’ Much more like the ladypark dogs.
My sable dog has a big coat, but is generally moderate in other senses. My departed blue boy looked straight out of the sixties with the long head and short coat. Their history is interesting, and I think quite fabled from my research over the years. I think the narrative of them as a herding dog in the wilds of Scotland is quite romanticised, I think those hardy scottish collies talked about were certainly their ancestors but it is my understanding from several long standing breeders - that what we know as rough collies were really only ever bred to be a glamorous show dog. I suppose you could consider them the original and poshest lurcher as those hardy scotch collies were infused heavily with sighthound, mainly borzoi and apparently some setter too - to create even the ‘classic’ collie people remember and love.
In terms of Pembroke corgis I have attached Rozavel lucky strike. He’s probably one of, if not, the most influential sires in the breed. It is said he really directed the ‘post war’ version of the breed. Prior to this, they varied greatly as is often documented in childhood photos of the queen with their corgis which at that point were only recently registered and therefore only starting to breed to type. My dear departed granny was a very old Welsh native and always said that before being selectively bred they were cur-gi and just that, really a scatter bred farm dog that did a bit of everything, a bit like modern day russells. Some lines of corgi originally were very terrier looking and resemble the solid red Jack russells you still see today, other lines were larger, rangier and seemingly quite collie infused, others had slightly bull terrier aspects to them (brindle and white with almost an EBT head and front)- there really was no type prior to breeders like Thelma Grey taking hold of them, the only true factor was the short legs and the natural Bob tail - and the inherit ‘nip and duck’ motion which they became famous as heelers for. Originally the corgi was a teckel type dog, which the cardigan version hails from. The Pembroke version came from this dog breeding with small spitz types, like schipperkes and the such, brought to wales by Flemish weavers - creating two distinct types even the line.
Nowadays some lines of corgis are - in my opinion, ridiculous and are too long, with no legs, huge barrel chests, and daft big teddy bear heads with almost bulging eyes. Thankfully there are still some lines that are sturdy, sensible - true corgis. When we talk about the change in pembrokes, they are definitely lower than they were but it’s difficult to tell if this is in reality or just appearance - as we have bred them to be much more solid, and bulky dogs with more substance and bone than they ever would have - particularly with their chest and fronts, which always makes me wonder if that makes them appear lower than they are. I much prefer the old corgi heads, they are supposed to be foxy after all
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