Your breed/s then and now….

P3LH

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Have they changed much? If so, how? Have they deviated away from their original purpose? Discuss/share photos. This will probably bore many of you as a thread, but for any dog history needs as myself - you may enjoy joining in about your chosen breeds too.

In terms of rough collies, I have attached an image of the famous ladypark dogs. Probably the best of their day. Roughs are interesting as in the main, the modern dogs or ‘European type’ resembles nothing of the original dogs physically or mentally. Many are tiny, short in the back and loin, huge coats, completely different heads and neurotic. There are breeders who, with clever blending of different imported dogs with old British lines, have created solid lines of ‘classic collies’ Much more like the ladypark dogs.

My sable dog has a big coat, but is generally moderate in other senses. My departed blue boy looked straight out of the sixties with the long head and short coat. Their history is interesting, and I think quite fabled from my research over the years. I think the narrative of them as a herding dog in the wilds of Scotland is quite romanticised, I think those hardy scottish collies talked about were certainly their ancestors but it is my understanding from several long standing breeders - that what we know as rough collies were really only ever bred to be a glamorous show dog. I suppose you could consider them the original and poshest lurcher as those hardy scotch collies were infused heavily with sighthound, mainly borzoi and apparently some setter too - to create even the ‘classic’ collie people remember and love.

In terms of Pembroke corgis I have attached Rozavel lucky strike. He’s probably one of, if not, the most influential sires in the breed. It is said he really directed the ‘post war’ version of the breed. Prior to this, they varied greatly as is often documented in childhood photos of the queen with their corgis which at that point were only recently registered and therefore only starting to breed to type. My dear departed granny was a very old Welsh native and always said that before being selectively bred they were cur-gi and just that, really a scatter bred farm dog that did a bit of everything, a bit like modern day russells. Some lines of corgi originally were very terrier looking and resemble the solid red Jack russells you still see today, other lines were larger, rangier and seemingly quite collie infused, others had slightly bull terrier aspects to them (brindle and white with almost an EBT head and front)- there really was no type prior to breeders like Thelma Grey taking hold of them, the only true factor was the short legs and the natural Bob tail - and the inherit ‘nip and duck’ motion which they became famous as heelers for. Originally the corgi was a teckel type dog, which the cardigan version hails from. The Pembroke version came from this dog breeding with small spitz types, like schipperkes and the such, brought to wales by Flemish weavers - creating two distinct types even the line.

Nowadays some lines of corgis are - in my opinion, ridiculous and are too long, with no legs, huge barrel chests, and daft big teddy bear heads with almost bulging eyes. Thankfully there are still some lines that are sturdy, sensible - true corgis. When we talk about the change in pembrokes, they are definitely lower than they were but it’s difficult to tell if this is in reality or just appearance - as we have bred them to be much more solid, and bulky dogs with more substance and bone than they ever would have - particularly with their chest and fronts, which always makes me wonder if that makes them appear lower than they are. I much prefer the old corgi heads, they are supposed to be foxy after all
 

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blackcob

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Having only really landed in the UK in the late sixties/early seventies Siberian huskies have had to head off a few challenges to remaining a functional sled dog. IMO these have included: The appearance of purpose bred crossbreeds for competitive sled dog racing; a divergence in types - heavily boned, plush coated show dogs vs rangy sprint racing dogs; and finally a popularity explosion in which temperament and working ability fell by the wayside for the pet market. I've no doubt that any of these look nothing like the 'original' Chukchi sled dogs either but at least, happily, it is still possible to find dual purpose, moderate dogs of type and temperament suitable for racing. I won't hold either of mine up as examples. ?

The schipperke hasn't changed an awful lot but it's interesting to note the difference in their classification - FCI and AKC both consider them miniaturised shepherd dogs, on the basis that they share a common ancestor (a 17th century medium sized black herding dog) with the groenendael. However, UK KC considers them a spitz type. Their function was actually more terrier-like than anything else, being watch dogs and killers of vermin. Any excuse to post my favourite passage:

‘A little, black devil, but minus the cloven hoof and the tail, such is the Boatman’s dog. A very demon for rats, mice, moles and anything that moves. An indefatigable watchdog, he rests neither day nor night always on foot never weary of inspecting the house from cellar to garret and as soon as he observes anything amiss he warns his master by his piercing barks. He knows the ways of the family, mixes himself into everything and ends up by thinking that he is the one who directs the household. His fidelity to his master is unalterable; his gentleness with children is equal to any test, but let a stranger beware if he lays a hand on any object or person; the Schipperke has teeth and can use them.'

Coats have become more profuse (I imagine common to many breeds) and some all rounder judges will put up a dog with an open or soft coat because it looks profuse and flashy but there's enough that still value the correct pattern and texture, closer in type to the original dogs.

schipold.jpg
 

splashgirl45

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ive had what we used to call mongrels in my childhood and teens, and most seemed to be black and tan of various sizes, so no history.. i then went on to lurchers and terriers and most were cross breeds and had one border collie cross.. the only pedigree i had was a deerhound, my favourite breed and one that doesnt seem to have changed much over the years..

P1010753.JPGP1010741.JPGP1010747 (2).JPGsnow running.jpg
 

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Nudibranch

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As soon as I saw your post title I thought of rough collies. I don't know what breeders are thinking of quite honestly. Mine is raked within an inch of her life and I have to clip her belly and lower chest in summer as their ridiculous coats are a welfare issue - she has had 2 collapses. I was only thinking the other day the breed needs to amend their standards. The American collies are far more attractive imo. Some of the British collies now are snub nosed and nothing like the collies of old.

I am looking long term for a stud for mine as I would like to breed a pup for myself and there is plenty of demand for the litter mates. However I am put off by many dogs available and at the moment there is probably only one I would try and use. I'm also quite frankly terrified of the reaction of the collie community - I've seen genuine sellers with a single litter have their adverts shared without permission and ripped apart all over Facebook. One was even slammed for using "all the right terminology". You can't win. My collie has a fantastic rural life full of interest - she is from a very successful breeder and would probably show well but I have no interest. Her temperament is superb and she is a great family dog. Doesn't mean I am any less capable of breeding a litter of solid family pets than someone who spends all day on the ring side.
 

P3LH

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As soon as I saw your post title I thought of rough collies. I don't know what breeders are thinking of quite honestly. Mine is raked within an inch of her life and I have to clip her belly and lower chest in summer as their ridiculous coats are a welfare issue - she has had 2 collapses. I was only thinking the other day the breed needs to amend their standards. The American collies are far more attractive imo. Some of the British collies now are snub nosed and nothing like the collies of old.

I am looking long term for a stud for mine as I would like to breed a pup for myself and there is plenty of demand for the litter mates. However I am put off by many dogs available and at the moment there is probably only one I would try and use. I'm also quite frankly terrified of the reaction of the collie community - I've seen genuine sellers with a single litter have their adverts shared without permission and ripped apart all over Facebook. One was even slammed for using "all the right terminology". You can't win. My collie has a fantastic rural life full of interest - she is from a very successful breeder and would probably show well but I have no interest. Her temperament is superb and she is a great family dog. Doesn't mean I am any less capable of breeding a litter of solid family pets than someone who spends all day on the ring side.
Some have become, frankly-a mess. I can recommend looking at Wicanni and Ingeldene kennels in terms of a stud. The majority of the collie community nowadays seem completely unaware what they are breeding and showing are nothing even close to the breed. And don’t talk to me about the temperaments in the modern types. Most are terrified of everything. Roughs have been in my family since the thirties - and we’re all bombproof. My own two are/were sensitive but not neurotic like the modern dogs.

There are some breeder thankfully, eg the two named, who still breed them true though - but it’s getting fewer and fewer as time goes on
 

Errin Paddywack

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My husband remembers long before he met me so pre 1967, a friend that had a rough collie coming to visit on the farm. The dog went missing and was found doing a very nice job of rounding up the sheep. They were amazed that he had the instinct.
 

P3LH

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Having only really landed in the UK in the late sixties/early seventies Siberian huskies have had to head off a few challenges to remaining a functional sled dog. IMO these have included: The appearance of purpose bred crossbreeds for competitive sled dog racing; a divergence in types - heavily boned, plush coated show dogs vs rangy sprint racing dogs; and finally a popularity explosion in which temperament and working ability fell by the wayside for the pet market. I've no doubt that any of these look nothing like the 'original' Chukchi sled dogs either but at least, happily, it is still possible to find dual purpose, moderate dogs of type and temperament suitable for racing. I won't hold either of mine up as examples. ?

The schipperke hasn't changed an awful lot but it's interesting to note the difference in their classification - FCI and AKC both consider them miniaturised shepherd dogs, on the basis that they share a common ancestor (a 17th century medium sized black herding dog) with the groenendael. However, UK KC considers them a spitz type. Their function was actually more terrier-like than anything else, being watch dogs and killers of vermin. Any excuse to post my favourite passage:



Coats have become more profuse (I imagine common to many breeds) and some all rounder judges will put up a dog with an open or soft coat because it looks profuse and flashy but there's enough that still value the correct pattern and texture, closer in type to the original dogs.

View attachment 79356
Funny how similar the description are considering the strong beliefs of many that they and corgis at least share a common ancestor, if not as straightforward as the latter hailing from the former!
 

skinnydipper

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As soon as I saw your post title I thought of rough collies. I don't know what breeders are thinking of quite honestly. Mine is raked within an inch of her life and I have to clip her belly and lower chest in summer as their ridiculous coats are a welfare issue - she has had 2 collapses. I was only thinking the other day the breed needs to amend their standards. The American collies are far more attractive imo. Some of the British collies now are snub nosed and nothing like the collies of old.

I am looking long term for a stud for mine as I would like to breed a pup for myself and there is plenty of demand for the litter mates. However I am put off by many dogs available and at the moment there is probably only one I would try and use. I'm also quite frankly terrified of the reaction of the collie community - I've seen genuine sellers with a single litter have their adverts shared without permission and ripped apart all over Facebook. One was even slammed for using "all the right terminology". You can't win. My collie has a fantastic rural life full of interest - she is from a very successful breeder and would probably show well but I have no interest. Her temperament is superb and she is a great family dog. Doesn't mean I am any less capable of breeding a litter of solid family pets than someone who spends all day on the ring side.

Let me see if I understand this.

Your bitch has a coat which you believe is a welfare issue, she has collapsed twice. You don't know what breeders are thinking of.

You are going to breed from your bitch.
 

Nudibranch

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No, rough collies as a breed have coats which are an issue. Hers isn't actually as full as many - I personally prefer no undercoat at all. She is a lot more active than the average rough which is my whole point. They have been bred past utility. If you are going to breed out overly thick coats you breed from animals whose coats are less full. Which involves, er, puppies...

Otherwise let's just stop breeding double coated dogs full stop. Or maybe you know of a genetic test for bcc? Or of course you could just jump on the "nobody else should breed a litter, I'm far more knowledgable" bandwagon.

Nothing like sticking to the facts eh?
 
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skinnydipper

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No, rough collies as a breed have coats which are an issue. Hers isn't actually as full as many - I personally prefer no undercoat at all. She is a lot more active than the average rough which is my whole point. They have been bred past utility. If you are going to breed out overly thick coats you breed from animals whose coats are less full. Which involves, er, puppies...

Otherwise let's just stop breeding double coated dogs full stop. Or maybe you know of a genetic test for bcc? Or of course you could just jump on the "nobody else should breed a litter, I'm far more knowledgable" bandwagon.

Nothing like sticking to the facts eh?

I've had a number of long haired, double coated dogs, thanks, one of whom was this chap from the Dogs Trust.

1631522041531.jpeg

He had an undercoat like cotton wool and I line groomed him daily with a metal comb. (When I got him he stank and I don't believe he had ever been groomed. It took many days and much patience to remove the bin bags of coat.)

I would imagine he met breed standards. He was one of 28 dogs removed from a breeder when environmental health got involved - due to the appalling condition of the dogs and the environment in which they were kept. Crufts doesn't interest me but I was told by the staff at the Dogs Trust that the breeder won awards there.

He was put to sleep because of degenerative myelopathy, something the breed is predisposed to and which I assume you have tested for.

Like your bitch he was a fit dog and tried to keep up with the long dogs and GSD, he failed but he had fun trying.

I believe a double coat serves a purpose, to insulate against heat and also cold. I think he was better equipped to cope with heat than, say, the black long dogs or terriers who were closer to the ground. But in any case, far better to keep dogs cool and not take them out when the weather is hot and risk collapse from heat stroke.

It never crossed my mind to clip him. I trimmed the feathers off his feet and the hair from between his pads as dried mud or packed snow on his paws would have been uncomfortable for him.

I have to clip her belly and lower chest in summer as their ridiculous coats are a welfare issue - she has had 2 collapses.

I think you missed the point I was making. Why breed from a bitch that you believe has a problem? How is that going to improve the breed? Feel free to explain the intricacies of selective breeding, I have no experience whatsoever.
 

Nudibranch

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It's not rocket science, you find the examples with the features you are looking for, ie less extreme coats. The offspring will have the same and you breed out the unwanted feature over generations. Much like the lady is doing with French bulldogs.
Rough collie coats as a BREED have too much coat to be able to fulfil an active life. Mine has less coat and a more classic profile which is why I bought her. A stud would be the same which I why I said at the moment I would only choose one of those available, if you bothered to read that part.

Of course there are two choices - preach from a soapbox and do nothing, or actually take action and breed better examples.
 

CorvusCorax

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As a general point, you don't just breed the dogs in front of you, you bring together all the dogs behind them as well. The dog in front of you might have, for example, a less profuse coat or a low hip score, his grandfather might not have done, things can skip generations, come out in the wash, crop up when put to a certain female. If you only breed for one thing, and not all things, then other problems crop up.
IME experience breeding is never 'Breed this one to that one and BINGO'. Changes come about over generations and that means wastage, unfortunately. Who wants all the dogs in the middle?
Why deviate from the breed standard? Why not choose a different breed if the one you have chosen doesn't fit the lifestyle? Again, that's a general point.
My breed has suffered greatly because people have picked and chosen what bits they do and don't like rather than say 'ya know what, this isn't the dog for me any more, I'll go into another breed'.
 

skinnydipper

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It's not rocket science, you find the examples with the features you are looking for, ie less extreme coats. The offspring will have the same and you breed out the unwanted feature over generations. Much like the lady is doing with French bulldogs.
Rough collie coats as a BREED have too much coat to be able to fulfil an active life. Mine has less coat and a more classic profile which is why I bought her. A stud would be the same which I why I said at the moment I would only choose one of those available, if you bothered to read that part.

Of course there are two choices - preach from a soapbox and do nothing, or actually take action and breed better examples.


But it would seem you feel your dog does have a problem with her coat, wasn't overheating the reason for her collapse and why you feel the need to clip her? Or does she have another problem?

Yes, I did read your post.
 

Nudibranch

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As a general point, you don't just breed the dogs in front of you, you bring together all the dogs behind them as well. The dog in front of you might have, for example, a less profuse coat or a low hip score, his grandfather might not have done, things can skip generations, come out in the wash, crop up when put to a certain female. If you only breed for one thing, and not all things, then other problems crop up.
IME experience breeding is never 'Breed this one to that one and BINGO'. Changes come about over generations and that means wastage, unfortunately. Who wants all the dogs in the middle?
Why deviate from the breed standard? Why not choose a different breed if the one you have chosen doesn't fit the lifestyle? Again, that's a general point.
My breed has suffered greatly because people have picked and chosen what bits they do and don't like rather than say 'ya know what, this isn't the dog for me any more, I'll go into another breed'.

Coats is a simplified example but there are plenty of breeds which would benefit from more focus on health instead of a particular fashion. Many of the brachycephalics for example. It is not right that a dog carries so much coat it cannot function in what should be a healthy lifestyle. I'm not talking about doing agility or herding, I'm taking about everyday exercise. A great majority of the roughs now are bred with a heavy focus on bouffant coat and it is impacting on the rest of their conformation, e.g muzzles, legs, etc. See the original post. The overly heavy coats are not breed standard! They are not mutually exclusive either, why would you not choose a dog with both more sensible coat AND a good hip score, PRA-, etc etc? It doesn't have to be one or the other.

The same happens in horses. Fashions arise and breeders start to deviate from the breed standard. A very high stepping, Welsh style trot in the Dales for example. Not breed standard but becoming desirable. A prominent judge and breeder advised me recently to shoe mine so she would lift her feet higher. She doesn't need shoes. Likewise the current fad for prolific hair amongst some in both Dales and Fells. Again not breed standard. They're not gypsy cobs. Neither have health nor utility benefits.

Clearly health, genetics and the overall picture should come into breeding but they really do not always in the way they should, often to the detriment of the breed.
 
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CorvusCorax

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Yeah I'm struggling to see in my own breed standard where it says 'must have a head like an akita or a bear, huge dewlaps, large wobbly ears and be bright red' but they are definitely in vogue at the moment. Obviously none of those things are health issues...yet.
My point was mainly to see if (and I am just spitballing as I don't really know enough about Roughs) will breeding two dogs with less profuse coats or a fuller to a less full, mean anything in the first generation? I see a lot of shortcoat to long stock coat matings in my own breed and the results are really surprising. People now test for the gene.
Similarly a straight working line to showline cross doesn't usually produce the 'best of both worlds'.
 

skinnydipper

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If you don't understand from two posts then there's nothing else I can add.

You are right. I don't understand.

I had a Rough Collie who was groomed so efficiently a breeze could ruffle/blow through his coat (click on the photo to enlarge). He ran with my other large dogs - long dogs (lurchers) and German Shepherd*, admittedly he never took the lead but that didn't stop his enjoyment. They bounded like Springbok through the long grass and raced up and down sand dunes. He led an active life. He wasn't clipped. He didn't collapse.

You, on the other hand, have a bitch whose coat you feel is a problem. You clip her to keep her cool and yet she collapsed - twice. You plan to breed from her.

What were the circumstances of her collapse(s)?


ETA. * that was my first GSD, the only one of my dogs who I bought as a pup.
 
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splashgirl45

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i have been following this discussion on rough collies and am interested to know why your collie has collapsed twice, if not overheating then what is wrong with her. my collie cross had a double coat and had never collapsed until the last day of her life at 15 her back legs gave way and she was struggling to get up and stay up. she had been for a 10 to 15min walk in the early morning and was ok..i would have been extremely concerned if she had collapsed at any other time of her life...seems odd to breed from a dog who has collapsed for no reason
 

Nudibranch

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The collapsed weren't "for no reason" but I really don't see why I need to share and justify details on a forum. It was a simple illustration of one example of a breed problem and this has now strayed so far from the original point of the OPs thread I really am not going to discuss it any further.
 

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I now have two cross breeds but had an airedale as a kid and they are very much the same now as then and then we had bichons, they have not changed from many many years ago either
 

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collie.jpg

My 'best' collie vs a 1920's collie pic that came up on FB the other day. I say best because he only went to a pet home due to an un-descended testicle and would otherwise have been a show dog.
He's very athletic and has pretty intact collie instincts and he definitely has the easiest coat of my three. You can see how he has more of a step in his head compared to the 20's collie though.
 
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