Your opinions- Ruby Walsh comments about the death at Cheltenham

[cptrayes]

I think he spoke the truth also, I agree, there is a huge difference between horses in the races and pet horses but It's still a true point. My husband LOVES Dexter but I can guarantee he would rather loose the horse than his wife in an accident.

Presumably your husband does not send you out to do something which is extremely likely to have killed you by the time you've done 20 hours of it? If he does, I hope you get a good payment for it

 

[PolarSkye]

In Ruby Walsh's opinion horses are replaceable... since his accident, we can now see that so are mediocre jockeys

Oh grow up . . . such a simplistic, infantile view. Widen your horizons a little, instead of swallowing media hype whole, why not take the time to find out what he actually said (in context)?

And mediocre? Hardly.

P

 

[DiNozzo]

Presumably your husband does not send you out to do something which is extremely likely to have killed you by the time you've done 20 hours of it? If he does, I hope you get a good payment for it

So are racehorses not comparable to pet dogs?
We (people generally) take dogs out for walks and occasionally one of them is squashed and either dies or is PTS.
The dogs enjoy going out for walks for the most part.
Dogs are pets, and its generally agreed we'd rather a pet died than a human friend or family member.

Racehorses are taken racing, and galloped in training and occasionally one of them will die or be PTS due to a fall/break down, heart attack etc.
They generally enjoy racing- those who don't generally don't make it to Cheltenham.
When these accidents happen it is regrettable, but you wouldn't wish the dog handler harm, or that the jockey should have been hurt. You are grateful that they weren't harmed and then you grieve for the (lesser) loss of the dog or horse but you still feel it.

 

[cptrayes]

So are racehorses not comparable to pet dogs?
We (people generally) take dogs out for walks and occasionally one of them is squashed and either dies or is PTS.
The dogs enjoy going out for walks for the most part.
Dogs are pets, and its generally agreed we'd rather a pet died than a human friend or family member.

Racehorses are taken racing, and galloped in training and occasionally one of them will die or be PTS due to a fall/break down, heart attack etc.
They generally enjoy racing- those who don't generally don't make it to Cheltenham.
When these accidents happen it is regrettable, but you wouldn't wish the dog handler harm, or that the jockey should have been hurt. You are grateful that they weren't harmed and then you grieve for the (lesser) loss of the dog or horse but you still feel it.

Was it me you meant to quote, because your reply doesn't seem to follow the point I made? If it was, then I have a question for you.

If your dog died, on average, out on a walk after twenty hours of walkies, you'd either stop walking the dog or stop keeping dogs, wouldn't you?

 

[DiNozzo]

No I wouldn't stop walking the dogs, if they enjoyed it?

The point I was trying to make was that racing is something horses generally enjoyed (like dogs being taken for walks), and that mistakes and risks are there despite everyone's best efforts, and this risk does not increase enough per outing to suggest that it was because they'd done X amounts of the activity.

I then meant to suggest that taking dogs for walkies is something they enjoy so you wouldn't stop them doing it, so why would you stop racing?

The deaths of the animals is regrettable and the owner/walker/rider/connections will be devastated, but it would be a million times worse for everyone involved had the rider/walker been dragged under the car too/crushed by the horse.

Racing involves calculated risks, as does everything in life, and if all parties enjoy it then it is worth that risk.

I'm not sure what your making out of the 20 hours of activity relates to a death? There is no evidence to suggest that? Each horse that died, did so in individual circumstances, and comparisons as to why they died cannot be drawn.

 

[cptrayes]

You would seriously keep dogs if one was going to die every twentieth day if you walked it for an hour a day? And if there was no need to walk it in a place where it would die, but you chose to because you enjoyed it?

I simply could not tolerate the pain.

The twenty hours is official industry statistics, one NH death in every 250 runners, assuming the average NH race is a bit under five minutes. I think the true figure is shorter, and the number of hours shorter too, but I err on the side of racing.

And of course it takes no account of all the ones that are shot when they get home due to injuries sustained during a race.

 

[MillyMoomie]

Dog walking doesn't in my experience often involve billions of pounds though.... money is what makes horse racing exist. Money is what will make it continue, regardless of if a horse enjoys it or not.

 

[DiNozzo]

What is with this 20th day thing?!

What has it got to do with an argument?!

Yes I would, if it meant the dog had a good life!

 

[Ibblebibble]

perhaps the sheer numbers of horses in racing makes the figures for deaths appear so high, i wonder how it does compare to hunting injuries and deaths in reality. A woman i work for who used to work in racing has always said she would never take a horse hunting as she considers it madness to go galloping across unknown fields with all the hazards that entails, ie rabbit holes, uneven terrain, huge hedges and big ditches! something to think about for those that berate racing but happily go hunting!

 

[DiNozzo]

Dog walking doesn't in my experience often involve billions of pounds though.... money is what makes horse racing exist. Money is what will make it continue, regardless of if a horse enjoys it or not.

Those that don't enjoy it don't do it. (Usually, as with any sport some people are greedy and money motivated).
I know several jockeys and owners that have kept horses that hated racing as pets (at their own costs), because they were such nice horses. You can't allow a few bad people paint the whole industry.

Also, not all horses are kind enough to allow themselves to do things they do not enjoy.

 

[cornbrodolly]

I have been stunned and angered by some of the comments in the internet. How can people seriously think Ruby spoke anything but common sense? How can any horse s life be equal to that of close family or friends? Its just bonkers . I love my horses and have to make hard decisions to PTS over the years, but have lost both my parents in the last 2 years- theres no comparison.
Also , for those who want to stop N H racing - what would happen to a large percentage of the failed flat racers? No N H and hurdling to 'mop up' the less talented would mean a lot more TBs shot at a young age.

 

[cptrayes]

perhaps the sheer numbers of horses in racing makes the figures for deaths appear so high, i wonder how it does compare to hunting injuries and deaths in reality. A woman i work for who used to work in racing has always said she would never take a horse hunting as she considers it madness to go galloping across unknown fields with all the hazards that entails, ie rabbit holes, uneven terrain, huge hedges and big ditches! something to think about for those that berate racing but happily go hunting!

That's why I reduce it to per hour as a figure, so we can see the real comparison. As I said above, if a hunt goes out for four hours with a field of forty, then if they did at the same rate as NH horses during a race, you could reasonably expect one horse to die for every twenty hours of hunting, so in 160 horse hours, eight horses would die every single day the hunt goes out.

It's because the numbers of starters are so huge and the actual time they are doing the really dangerous activity is so short, that we don't see the true picture compared to other horse sports.


If anyone missed it above, I do not want racing banned, but I certainly couldn't send a horse of mine to do it. The horse in my avatar has hunted without incurring any injury except blackthorn pricks for approximately 300 hours.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I have read the Ruby Walsh's comments and suspect they have been taken out of context. I have no feelings for Ruby Walsh either way - I neither admire nor dislike him. To me he is just a jockey. But he chose his profession as have the other jockeys, and from day one he knew about the falls, injuries, ups and downs that would come with his profession. I apologise, but when I watch jump racing, which I enjoy, and a horse falls, my first thought is whether the horse is up or not - then I want to know if the jockey is ok. Not because I think a human life is less valuable - it isn't - but because I watch horse racing because of my love of the equine athlete - not because of my love of jockeys.

 

[Orangehorse]

Well we always get this when a horse is killed racing on TV. We don't hear about the hunt horses that get stuck on bridges, put their foot down a hole and break their leg, jump into a cattle grid or get tangled up in a hedge and bleed to death on the hunting field. All these have happened in my local hunt.

It is always a great shame when a horse gets hurt, when taking part in any sport - racing, eventing, show jumping and hunting - but life for a horse is dangerous. Those thin spindly legs, the heavy body and the speed they go means that they are oh so vulnerable.

And remember that in racing there are always three very happy people too, the owner, the trainer and the jockey of the winning horse.

 

[PolarSkye]

Well we always get this when a horse is killed racing on TV. We don't hear about the hunt horses that get stuck on bridges, put their foot down a hole and break their leg, jump into a cattle grid or get tangled up in a hedge and bleed to death on the hunting field. All these have happened in my local hunt.

It is always a great shame when a horse gets hurt, when taking part in any sport - racing, eventing, show jumping and hunting - but life for a horse is dangerous. Those thin spindly legs, the heavy body and the speed they go means that they are oh so vulnerable.

And remember that in racing there are always three very happy people too, the owner, the trainer and the jockey of the winning horse.

Yep . . . and the stable lads and lasses and the vet and the physio and the farrier and the dentist . . . just like any horse. All connections feel it when a horse dies . . . whether it's a leisure horse or a competition horse in any discipline . . . but not all connections feel it when a horse wins. My farrier, physio, dentist and vet don't see my horse until he needs something routine doing or when he has a problem . . . for competition horses the vet, farrier, physio, etc. are part of the team too . . . which makes what RW said even more relevant. He wasn't negating the importance of these horses who give their all on the track . . . he was honouring what they do and saying despite how important they are to their connections (including jockeys), it is still impossible to replace a much-loved and respected person versus a horse.

I can't replace Kal . . . he really is one of a kind . . . beautiful, funny, quirky, loving, naughty, talented . . . the list goes on. But I can have and love another horse . . . perhaps not as much as I love him, perhaps more (although I find that hard to comprehend right now).

But if (God forbid) any of my children or my husband or my dearest friends died . . . there is simply no way I could replace any of them. Not ever.

P

 

[Pale Rider]

Well, I've read his comments in context, it's true that a horse's death isn't like that of a person's, but, I thought he's a knob in an industry of knobs.

 

[Patterdale]

You would seriously keep dogs if one was going to die every twentieth day if you walked it for an hour a day? And if there was no need to walk it in a place where it would die, but you chose to because you enjoyed it?

I simply could not tolerate the pain.

The twenty hours is official industry statistics, one NH death in every 250 runners, assuming the average NH race is a bit under five minutes. I think the true figure is shorter, and the number of hours shorter too, but I err on the side of racing.

And of course it takes no account of all the ones that are shot when they get home due to injuries sustained during a race.

You're skewing your 'facts.'
Particularly the first part, 'if a dog died every 20th day you took it for an hours walk' suggesting that a horse will die every 20th day that it races - which is untrue.

Ruby's comments were realistic. He later clarified by saying, if you got home tonight and something had happened to your dog, would you be more upset than if something had happened to your family? No you wouldn't. It doesn't mean that you don't love your dog, but at the end of the day an animal is an animal and a person is a person.
I don't think there can be much argument with that?

I love my horse, and my dog, but if my horse and a family member were in a fire and I could only rescue one, it would be the person. It's just human nature.
That's all Ruby was saying - if only one of them could get up, thank goodness it was the jockey.
Doesn't mean he's not affected by the death of the horse, however - as we all probably are.
RIP Our Connor.

 

[Froddy]

Yep . . . and the stable lads and lasses and the vet and the physio and the farrier and the dentist . . . just like any horse. All connections feel it when a horse dies . . . whether it's a leisure horse or a competition horse in any discipline . . . but not all connections feel it when a horse wins. My farrier, physio, dentist and vet don't see my horse until he needs something routine doing or when he has a problem . . . for competition horses the vet, farrier, physio, etc. are part of the team too . . . which makes what RW said even more relevant. He wasn't negating the importance of these horses who give their all on the track . . . he was honouring what they do and saying despite how important they are to their connections (including jockeys), it is still impossible to replace a much-loved and respected person versus a horse.

I can't replace Kal . . . he really is one of a kind . . . beautiful, funny, quirky, loving, naughty, talented . . . the list goes on. But I can have and love another horse . . . perhaps not as much as I love him, perhaps more (although I find that hard to comprehend right now).

But if (God forbid) any of my children or my husband or my dearest friends died . . . there is simply no way I could replace any of them. Not ever.

P

^that, if ever I wanted a like button on here it would be for that post.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I'm another one who understands where Ruby is coming from.

Coming home to an empty stable is heartbreaking. Waking up to an empty bed and realizing that you will have to spend the rest of your life with this overwhelming grief is incomparable.

My OH of seven years, my high school sweetheart, committed suicide. You CANNOT tell me that it even slightly compares to losing a pet.

If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have got through it. I adore her, I admire her and I love her. If I lost her, I'd be broken. But not like this.

 

[cptrayes]

You're skewing your 'facts.'
Particularly the first part, 'if a dog died every 20th day you took it for an hours walk' suggesting that a horse will die every 20th day that it races - which is untrue.

I'm not skewing anything. It is racing industry published statistics that one horse does in an NH race for every twenty hours that any one horse is actually on the racetrack. Probably less, actually, but I'm being kind to racing by rounding it up.


If the same was applied to dog walking, then you could reasonably expect your dog to be dead by the time you'd walked it twenty hours. If it wasn't, then it would only be because someone else's dog had died earlier than that.

That's the FACT of NH racing.

It is only that the races are only a few minutes long, that the extreme dangers to the horse of sending them racing are not clearer. If it was any other animal sport, I can't see how it would not be banned.

I'll repeat for those who don't want to read the whole thread. I do not want racing banned, I just think the truth about the scale of the horse deaths is not really understood.

On the other hand, because races are so short, relatively, the risk to any one horse finishing the season dead on the racetrack is about 1 in 50, assuming an average of five runs a season. That still doesn't sound acceptable to me, but I guess it does to most people.

 

[Patterdale]

I'm not skewing anything. It is racing industry published statistics that one horse does in an NH race for every twenty hours that any one horse is actually on the racetrack. Probably less, actually, but I'm being kind to racing by rounding it up.


If the same was applied to dog walking, then you could reasonably expect your dog to be dead by the time you'd walked it twenty hours. If it wasn't, then it would only be because someone else's dog had died earlier than that.

That's the FACT of NH racing.

You're equating one race to one dog walk. Which is skewing the facts.

Your statement that one horse in every 250 will die on the track (based on these figures) is also wrong, as there are very few horses that will race for even one hour in total, never mind 20!

 

[cptrayes]

You're equating one race to one dog walk. Which is skewing the facts.

Your statement that one horse in every 250 will die on the track (based on these figures) is also wrong, as there are very few horses that will race for even one hour in total, never mind 20!

No I am not. I am equating one hour racing with one hour dog walking. It's a direct comparison and the figures are supplied by the industry. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like them.

The fact that horses don't race for an hour is not the point. The point is that if any other sport had that death rate per hour of activity, it would surely have been banned?

The death rate on the track is one in 250 STARTERS, not horses.

That does not include the ones that are shot when they get home because of injuries sustained on the track.

Support NH racing by all means, but please don't blind yourself to the reality of the scale of death involved.






Footnote: I do not want racing banned.

 

[HihoGinger]

I do think Ruby's words *could* have been taken however the individual reading them wanted to take them.
He may be a very good (certainly not mediocre) jockey, but he has put his foot in it before, and no doubt he will again.

I took them to mean the same as most (reasonable) people; that you can't put the same emotional value on an animal as you can a human. As others have said, you only get one mum/dad etc. You CAN'T replace them.

Re the whole racing argument. I love watching jump racing, but it so frequently saddens me. I do honestly find it hard to justify why I enjoy it when we have spates of fatalities like we have seen in the last couple of weeks, but I still find myself drawn to the spectacle of watching a top class chaser standing off outside the wings and looking in love with its job.

As an aside, I went out for a hack with a girl the other day. She's not on my yard, she just rides a youngster out for my YO. I know her reasonably well, but don't know masses about her background.
I do know she owns an ex racehorse, and rides out at Newmarket most mornings, but when we were discussing the first couple of fatalities of Cheltenham, she doesn't appear to have strong feelings about racing one way or the other. It is just a job to her.
However, something that did come up with regard to injuries, is that her parents race greyhounds. Now I know there is a lot of talk about alleged cruelty and death in that game, but I was very surprised just how high the death rate is.

It seems that horse racing, due the the high profile of certain races, and the amount of television coverage it gets, does cop for the cruelty flack, when from what I was told the other day, greyhound racing is every bit as "cruel" , and the wastage is horrendous.
I know this thread is about horse racing, but I just wanted to put that out there.

 

[fburton]

Great post, alliersv1.

 

[KautoStar1]

Rubys initial comments were made in relation to being thankful that danny mullins was ok when our conner fell. He was reminding us that each time a horse falls so too doess a jockey &thinking about his friend JT McNamarra who will never walk again let alone ride.

Hes a straight talking chap who stares at his own mortality every time he goes out to ride & has seen horse & jockey death at first hand. He tells it the way it is & he doesnt sugar coat it .

A marvellous jockey & a great bloke. Imho.

 

[Alan's mum]

Rubys initial comments were made in relation to being thankful that danny mullins was ok when our conner fell. He was reminding us that each time a horse falls so too doess a jockey &thinking about his friend JT McNamarra who will never walk again let alone ride.

Hes a straight talking chap who stares at his own mortality every time he goes out to ride & has seen horse & jockey death at first hand. He tells it the way it is & he doesnt sugar coat it .

A marvellous jockey & a great bloke. Imho.

Sense at last !

 

[Patterdale]

No I am not. I am equating one hour racing with one hour dog walking. It's a direct comparison and the figures are supplied by the industry. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like them.

The fact that horses don't race for an hour is not the point.

Ill try again.
Equating it to dog walking IS skewing the facts. A dog will be walked for an hour a day on average, whereas the average racehorse will not race for anywhere near an hour in its career.

So to think of a dog dying whilst walking on average every 20th hour is very shocking - because dogs generally do an hours walk each day. And to compare that, what would be a very shocking statistic, to a horse who as I say won't race for an hour in its life, is misleading.

 

[I*HM]

Rubys initial comments were made in relation to being thankful that danny mullins was ok when our conner fell. He was reminding us that each time a horse falls so too doess a jockey &thinking about his friend JT McNamarra who will never walk again let alone ride.

Hes a straight talking chap who stares at his own mortality every time he goes out to ride & has seen horse & jockey death at first hand. He tells it the way it is & he doesnt sugar coat it .

A marvellous jockey & a great bloke. Imho.

Very well said, think you've hit the nail on the head there.
I also think it's a shame that (some) people who aren't directly involved in the industry fail to take a more open view on the subject. I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with what Ruby said and how the industry views horses, but if you have an opinion I think people also need to accept the opinion of others. Ruby has great insight into the workings of industry and has been closer to what's going than anyone else. Every time he gets on a horse, he's not only doing his job but also risking his life. Yes, it's a shame how horses are, in essence, replaceable, but at the end of the day, it's the truth. A horse's death is always sad and is never something I'd wish on anyone beit groom, owner, rider etc, but it cannot be compared to the loss of a person's life. At least that's how I interpreted the comment. It's a tough world and you don't have to agree with it but the fact is, it's there.

 

[LaMooch]

Rubys initial comments were made in relation to being thankful that danny mullins was ok when our conner fell. He was reminding us that each time a horse falls so too doess a jockey &thinking about his friend JT McNamarra who will never walk again let alone ride.

Hes a straight talking chap who stares at his own mortality every time he goes out to ride & has seen horse & jockey death at first hand. He tells it the way it is & he doesnt sugar coat it .

A marvellous jockey & a great bloke. Imho.

Well put