your views on equine dentistry industry please

Chris.....all Im saying is be carefull about what you actually state on here. Yes..(for everyone looking in) the wwaed is a DEFRA approved body to provide training and examination which would entitle an EDT who passed their exam to apply for an exemption certificate. The BEVA are the only other such defra approved body to provide THE SAME. When..... and only when....an EDT has passed EITHER exam (BEVA or WWAED) they will be entitled to apply for an exemption certificate which would enable them to carry out catagory one and two equine dental procedures (catagory two procedures are ...as yet....classified as acts of Veterinary surgery).......when the political mess gets sorted and the BAEDT and BEVA stop arguing about what proceedures should be performed by who an exemption order may be put in force. However this has been on going since 2001 and nothing seems to be any closer.....watch this space.

I was involved in these political discussions way back then (am in my 11th year of the proffession now) and am well known in both organisations......perhaps mainly for my desire to present the truth in a way that many find hard to take. I am a member of the BAEDT and as such have passed the BEVA exam.

I am certified through the Worldwide Academy of equine Dentistry in USA and have been an Instructor and lecturer there on several occasions. I have not been back there recently and am not involved in the current scheme operating there.

I have lectured on UK courses offered by "the shires equine dental college" and have many friends and collegues in both the BAEDT and the WWAED. Martin Brookes knows me (I was a lecturer at the Academy in Idaho when martin was training there.

I have attended many continuing professional development courses since "qualifying" and specialise in several specific areas of equine dentistry.

Victoria is correct in that the bigger organisation in terms of members (here in the UK) is the BAEDT. The wwaed does have fewer members and even fewer who have passed their exam.
 
so you passed your beva exam in 2006 so can you tell us all what re training programs or courses you have undertaken since then? im just interested????? how many hours did you spend in the usa as you are not on there certifeied list? i can go on like this all night as for some reason you have chosen to try and belittle me. i do not know the reason but ive stated what im doing and what im trying to achive so what ive said wrong i do not know ive stated facts which you for some reason do not like.but none the less they are still facts
 
I am sorry but I am offended.

You come on here as a new member.....unknown to anyone on here and start slanging matches with other new members and then when I look at your posts it says someone signed on today saying you are more or less "gods gift to dentistry" and then low and behold you appear on the same post on the same day......v suspect.

Yes I know martin, I trained with him in Idaho and he is a great guy.

Re certifying in Idaho, I have been too busy achieving my UK recognised qualifiaction (considering that i live and practice in the UK) and spending a year as the Lecturer in BSc (Hons) Equine Dental Science at Hartpury College. I will be returning to Idaho in the future......whether to certify or not i have not decided as it is an awful lot of money to spend for a qualification that is not recognised in the UK.
 
ponydentist i agree on all counts.im just trying to fight my corner here and im saying that at least ppl on either list are trying to achive some sort of profesionalism in there work.victoria seems intent on putting me down yet she knows nothing of me or my work.martin in my opinion is a top top guy who knows as much as anyone practising here in the uk.im sure you will agree im going the right way about things yet im getting a slagging off for no good reason
 
joined because a girl whos horse i did text me and said you best come and look. i have never stated im anything like gods gift thankyou very much and neither did she as it read to me.ive started no slanging match my reply on here was just factual its you has brought it down a few pegs so if you expect me to bow down and say oh yes beva is better and im no good compared to you then you can think again as il stand up for what is right and what i belive in. ive tryed saying we are all siniging from the same hym sheet but you just seem intent os saying oh no we arnt beva is much better,why? just accept that there is people around who care about what they do and want to achive the very best standards of work that they can
 
am i not allowed to come on when ive been notified that there has been remarks made about me? im trying to hold my toungue and keep things sivil. we as dentists on either list are at least tring to do the right thing the sad fact is there is many many out there who arnt.they maybe performing fantastic work but who knows? the owners dont thats for sure, ive even been in touch with beva to see when they are next sitting there exams and they arnt doing any until 2010. ponydentist obviously knows his stuff so i can imagine he can also see where im coming from.
 
there is no qualification that is officially recognised here in the uk. hopefully it will be when the vetinary act gets overhauled but when this will happen is anyones guess,this is what ive been told is fact,we are still classed as a lay person and not a profesional
 
Ok you two.....this stops right now.

I started this thread to get the views of the horse owning public on the equine dental proffession and to arm them with FACTS.

It seems to have become a public slanging match. Thats not what I want my thread to be.

All im saying to you Chris is some of your facts are incorrect.....so maybe best not to post them if you are not 100% sure of what you put.

Please dont let this thread get off track....but i fear it may already have done so....thank you very much.

Anyone else reading please air your views and ask what you like...I will try to answer all.

(just for the record...I passed my exam in 2002.....certified at the academy in 2002 and spent two years in the USA....Accruing hours towards my Advanced certification I have made several visits between 2002 -2006) I am not listed as a certified equine dentist now as I havnt been back there recently and the rules have changed now....I feel I dont need to go back there as there are many training courses being offered over here which can offer enough.
 
well im sure that someone will clear this up but i was told that in fact the beva or wwaed exams where still not recognised by the goverment,the only properly qualified edts are in fact vets.if im proven wrong then i will appologise as this was stated to me as fact by gary kahkin,nat heal ,bob livock and martin brookes.
 
ok im taking a deep breath now! ha
we agree to disagree but i hate been put down by people who dont know me all steming from a comment a customer very kindly put on here about me.like i said if im wrong then i will appologise as im only stating what i was told and anyone knowledge is only as good as the person who told him it.
all the best
 
Well, I hate to interrupt the flow, but thought I'd respond to the first post
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I use an equine dentist: no idea if qualified or not, but very experienced and highly recommended, and my horses teeth look good now.

If power tools are ever needed then I have the vet out to administer the sedative (and then hang round and drink coffee), and the dentist who gets to slave away
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Never had an equine dentist suggest that he/she should administer sedative (which I know they're not allowed to do
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right some facts here.
the beva and wwaed level 2 exams DO NOT LEGALY entitle the dentist to carry out level 2 procedures this can only be carried out by the goodwill of vets.level 2 procedures are classed as minor surgical procedures and can only legaly be carried out by a qualified veteniary surgeon.this is untill the 1966 vetinary act is changed .and the exemption order enabling practisioners to carry out these.so in fact any dentist carrying out level 2 procedures is only doing so on the good will of a vet,so in fact the insurace many carry would probably not stand up in court.so we are still classed as lay people until the law is changed, these are facts written down by defra and can be vied by anyone,this is a fact as the law stands now.
 
I am an owner who will need a dentist for her filly at some point in the future. Can someone clear something up for me please? What is involved in Level 1 and Level 2 procedures? And why the different levels?

Thankies
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I thinkk this was possibly the most pointless post Ive ever read..

Pony/Chris ... the only person on this forum who I will be asking for advice on teeth/ dental problems in Victoria, she is a well liked and activ emember of this forum, with a very good reputation and I will not listen to you two bickering and slagigng each other off, and then claiming that victoria is slagging you off..

You are pathetic! You make me sick =o)

Lou x
 
Me either but to answer the original question I use and will only use a BEVA listed dentist - he has been doing mine for a few years now and I have no problem with his work and level of skill - I have however, seen other local EDT's/Vets work and would not entertain them for my own horses
 
i appologise for getting on my high horse. at the end of the day there is no winners and as long as everyone has the horses best interests at heart then its all good.
once again sorry for stressing
chris
 
Mmm - I wouldn't let a child near my horses' mouths - and there are some dentists here acting like children!

I use an extremely good BEVA EDT for my routine dental work - and my vet (who has done a lot of extra dental training) for horses that require sedation either due to behaviour, or because they need wolf teeth removing or major correction in the case of, for example, a shear mouth. My EDT rarely fails to work on a horse without sedation - my vet prefers to sedate if a horse is being a bit of a ratbag (or if major work being done) so vet works out more expensive. But that's not the reason I use an EDT - my vet doesn't fancy doing 8-10 horses in a session as he suffers RSI - otherwise I'd be happy to pay the extra for him to do them all!

However, we've had horses here - previously 'treated' by vets and/or EDTs - whose mouths were a disgrace! I'm not AS interested in qualifications as I am in whether the person is any use at equine dentistry. I'm fortunate in that I know enough about the subject to be able to identify the cowboys - but I don't want them getting that close! So I selected my EDT on the basis that he WAS an EDT AND was recommended by a friend whose knowledge I respected!

It always horrifies me that people settle for whoever happens to come to their yard!
 
First of all please accept my appologies everyone. This thread was not meant to become a slanging match between individuals and to that extent it was hi-jacked... but hopefully that certain Individual will now realise and we can get things back on track.

I am interested in finding out just how much people do actually know....and to what extent they care about who they are employing to carry out dental treatments for their beloved horses. It would seem that many people do not dig deep enough to find out just who people are and if they are in fact all they claim to be. I will stick my neck out and say that in my opinion (based on the relatively small number of equine dental practitoners who's names appear on two lists of individual providers....eg. those members of the BAEDT and WWAED....plus a small number who may be also equally examined but have chosen not to become members of either organisation) that the majority of horses in the Uk are recieving inadequate dental treatment. There are so many people of differing abilities with differing skill and knowledge levels carrying out dental treatments, that they cannot.... and are not...... all working to the ame standard. Therefore the majority of horses are not recieving the best treatment they could and their owners are paying for sub-standard care.

Why do so many people take the word of these so called "experts" without checking them out??? What I would like to know is why are you....the horse owning public not kicking up a stink and demanding that equine dentistry in the UK is regulated and governed better than it is now. If you all demanded that all dental practitioners (vet and non-vet) had to work to the same standard, I and many of my collegues would not have to spend time correcting shoddy inadequate substandard shocking treatments.

From my own personal point of view, as someone who, as well as being a professional EDT, assists many horse owners with various equine behavior related issues (you like to call them "problem horses"), the sad thing which is a rebound effect of a multi-standard treatment problem, is that many of these horses are being labelled as "problems" simply because they are in pain and discomfort. The owners have paid money to so called experts to check the teeth and have then been told that all is fine now....then the horse is still no better and another solution is sought, then another, then another,....and so on, when all the bl***y time the teeth havnt been done no where near as well as they should be because the person doing the work wasnt an EDT......and was just a glorified bl***y tooth rubber with as much knowledge and skill as my soding postman.

There are Equine dentistry training courses churning out so called equine dentists ten a penny....there are also dentists out there who have been on the go for donkeys years (pardon the pun) who are treating thousands of horses, but who should really be hanging up their apron because they a and not prepared to change and are way behind the times. But most of all, there are good people out there who own the poor horses who are being ripped off left right and centre because they are nice people who take people at thier word.

HOW do you know if a dental practitioner is really doing your horses mouth thoroughly?? How can you possibly know unless you have been trained yourself. WHO says that dental practitioner is "GOOD" ??? What peices of paper do they have to say that thier work has been examined by leading experts in that particular field and that those people issuing such are willing to put their neck on the line and say YES, this person does actually know what they are talkng about, they are very good at what they do and they are very skilled.

Would you let an un-examined farrier shoe your horse....would you let some human dentist who had only done a one week course treat your childrens teeth?? Or would you let you GP perform specialised work on you when a consultant was much more skilled to do it???

The point I am trying to make here is that there is now a means (two means) by which you can be assured that your horses are being treated PROPERLY and THOROGHLY.

Why do I still examine horses who have only been treated two weeks earlier to find horendously sharp enamel points at the very back of their mouths (and a whole host of other problems)when the owners have been told that they have all been removed.....or the owner was told that those bits were left alone and then he wouldnt eat so much and get laminitis. Why do I see horses which have had their teeth examined and yet they also have a problem with their gums which was far worse than any teeth problem but the owner was not told and the horse had to endure a lot of pain and discomfort in the meantime.??? Why do I hear of a "dentist" (who has been around for many years and who still treats hundreds and hundreds of horses in the Lancashire area) going onto a yard and treating 20, 30 and sometimes 40 horses in the space of a few hours... This person has no record of any formal training, no exams being passed or even sat, but yet he is taking other trainees round with him...and after a time those people will perhaps advertise as "UK Trained"....that utterly is ridiculous . How come there are currently only a handfull of vets in the UK who, after having undertaken further training in equine dentistry, have "BOTHERED" (I will use that word for now, untill someone offers a better alternative) to have their skills tested and examined by thier peers and other people who have taught them those skills.....( there are no EXAMS at the end of training courses) yet there are far more practices promoting their equine dental services and the fact that they now have all the fancy power equipment that other EDT's use.....or FREE dental checks with your horses inoculations. Maybe they did sit the xam....maybe they faied it because they didnt know enough ...or wernt skilled enough....maybe they thought they just dont need to be tested because they have letters after their name (So do I ...I have two degrees) Is your vet up in that list??? If not and they are promoting thier dentistry service... WHY arnt they on the list?? . Is your equine dentist on those lists???? If not...why not???

If you all demanded that, like your farrier, your equine dental care provider was suitably competent, the powers that be would set up more examinations and it would become compulsary to be ALL WORKING TO THE SAME STANDARD. Those equine dental care providers who cant be arsed to go get examined or recieve further traing to advance their skill and keep up with this ever advancing science are not doing so because they dont have to because you are not botherd and you will pay them good money anyway, so why should they. With many, there is a good chance they would fail anyway and still go out and practice like the ones who have already failed are still doing......The exams were not set up to put a dental care provider in higher esteem between their peers.....they were set up to protect YOU...the horse owner....but more importantly....your horses.

DEFRA....wont hurry the issue of equine dentistry regulation through because they do not feel it is an important issue because they havnt really had any pressure or complaints from horse owners so they feel that it isnt worth warranting the time and money on......pity your horses dont feel the same.

The person running one of the equine dentistry training courses here in the UK which is responsible for turning out more "so called" trained equine dentists than any other UK based course, is one of the only people to have FAILED all 3 required elements of the "INDUSTRY STANDARD" equine dental technicians exam. The blind leading the blind. He's quite happy taking their money....they think they are getting good training and knowledge........and you think that because these students of this one week long course say they are "UK TRAINED" and NFU approved that you are getting good work done....They may be brilliant with your horse...have all the right impressive looking gear.....fill in fancy record sheets...or they may fill your other criteria....eg. good looking, punctual, reliable, have a nice car, etc etc etc.....but who is really saying they are GOOD??? and how can they possibly be working to the required standard if they dont know what that standard is???

Over to you............!
 
Interesting thread even with the heat
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We rescued our mare, Karina in 2005 she was in a terrible emaciated (amongst other things) condition and although we tried to get the dentist out we had to wait as he was in hospital having emergency surgery.

As she was quidding we knew there was a problem with her teeth and looked into getting another dentist out but was advised by our then YO to wait for their dentist to recover as they had had him for quite a long time and trusted his work, thankfully we listened to her and just soaked Karina's feed well so it was soft enough for her to eat and waited. We couldn't get anywhere near her mouth at the time as she was so head shy and if you pressed matters she would just go straigh up in the air
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During the wait Karina was wormed at the yard and ended up staying at the vets with a very bad bout of spasmodic colic due to die off from a huge worm burden. (didn't know about 5 day guard then!) We asked the vets to have a look at her teeth for us while she was in to see what the problem was and their answer was that there wasn't anything wrong and added a big chunk to our bill for this "service".

A few weeks later our EDT came out and her teeth were in a shocking state
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she had hooks and some of her back teeth had been sharpened to points which had made large holes in the back of her poor mouth. She also couldn't properly close her mouth and was holding her jaws slightly crossed (probably trying to avoid pressure on the points.

Anyways our dentist managed to sort her out, he is brilliant with her, takes no nonsense but also is very calm and soothing with her. He showed me the points and encouraged me to have a feel (whilst the device they use to hold the mouth open was in place of course lol.) and explained everything. He also said that it looked as though someone who didn't know what they were doing had had a go at the teeth no long before and made a bloody mess of it
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A few months down the ling we managed to find out a little bit of her history, it turned out that she had been bought (a bit skinny apparently) for an acquaintance of my daughter and they got out a "dentist" as she kept rearing and playing up, before giving up with her as she was too dangerous for a young girl and returning her to the dealers. When my dentist came next time I told him the name of the other dentist and he said that he'd had to sort out a lot of poor horses whose mouths had been left in a mess by this bloke. Last year he came up again in a conversation with our dentist and he said that he had been caught sedating horses himself and had moved to the other said of the country and was still practising there
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I just looked our dentist up, I knew that he had trained in America and that he had done a lot of work for the ILPH, now I also know that he is a full member of WWAED and it states on his website "I recently took and successfully passed the DEFRA and RCVS approved Level 2 exemption examination, which is the highest qualification that a dentist can achieve in the UK." Most importantly he does a good job!

re vets, three years ago our dentist was visiting the yard we were at then and the vet attended as he had to sedate a filly so her wolf teeth could be removed. The vet after being half an hour late waltzed into the yard carrying a bucket full of dental equipment, after sedating the filly he came out with something along the lines of "well show me the ropes then" (it was a while back so I'm paraphrasing) to which our dentist replied "when I can do sedations then I'll show you how to do teeth!" at which the vet looked a bit shocked and scuttled off with his bucket
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Well that was longer than I thought :lol: congratulations if you made it to the bottom!
 
Well done Scunny,
I guess you must have used David W??? and that you chose him on the criteria that he was "qualified" through WWAED. Good decision. (wonder who the other naughty dentist was and if those rumours were true). I know David well as I assisted him in his training and pointed him down the route he persued to becoming in his position within that particular organisation.

There are ONLY two routes to becoming "qualified" within the equine dentistry profession. You must pass the level 2 exemption order exam. DEFRA has approved only two organisations in the UK to be able to hold this exam, these being the British Equine Veterinary Association (B.E.V.A) and the World Wide Association of Equine Dentistry (WWAED).

Those practitioners who choose to "qualify" through the BEVA are then elligible to join the British Association of Equine Dental Technicians (B.A.E.D.T). The W.W.A.E.D. examines only its own members....e.g. you must become a member of the wwaed before you can sit the exam.....so...merely being a member of the wwaed does not mean that you are "Qualified". The BAEDT on the other hand only accepts membership from those who have passed the BEVA exam....so if you are a member of the BAEDT, you will be "qualified"....Confused yet????

A word of warning on personal recomendations.

Once whilst working at a specialist equine vet clinic with an equine dental colleague who at the time I was training, I was asked to examine a stallion belonging to an International and Olympic standard showjumping client of the vet. The vet himself had examined the horse several times and the clients own "equine dentist" had also seen the horse several times but neither could find a problem, yet the horse had become totally unridable and refused to accept a bridle....despite being a high ranking horse . I agreed and upon examining the horse was shocked to discover that it had two "supernumary" teeth at the very back of its mouth which had hypererupted to the extent that they were cutting into his jaw each time he was ridden. (the horse looked, to all intesive purposes, healthy and "normal"). Everyone was shocked and horrified by what was discovered, the owner, the vet and myself and my student. I was consulted over the best treatment and with the vets brilliant assistance the horse was "relieved of his burden" at last. The horse and rider then went on to win the "Cock of the North2 trophy later that year at the great yorkshire show.

It transpired that the vet had attended several post graduate dentistry training courses (no exam) but was not familiar with supernumary teeth. The dentist who had been treating the horses for the international and olympic rider was an ex jockey who had recieved no formal training in equine dentistry, but who never the less had been "doing it" for 20+ years and was treating 1000's of horses countrywide and built up his reputation on recomendations from the said very influential showjumper. Oh...how often this stil occurs eh?

The point im trying to convey here and in this thread is that if and EDT or Vet is "qualified", and therefore on one of the approved lists, the guess work will have been taken out for the horse owners as to that individuals dentistry skills. Then.....and ONLY then, should you choose other criteria, eg. are they good with the horses, are they good looking, do they have fancy equipment, do they use hand instruments or power instruments, they have a nice car, they are reliable.....etc, etc, etc,.

I welcome any thoughts on the industry and what can best be done here.
 
For what it's worth, my two-pence worth...
I used an Australian trained/registered EDT in December last year. He was recommended to me and I thought he was very good.
I have become increasingly concerned since about my old girl's mouth so had my vet out this week to check. He was horrified by what he found and can't believe the EDT that treated her 6 months ago has let her go on with the level of discomfort she must have. She is booked to go to the vet dental clinic mext week for 2 teeth to be removed and so they can do their best to make her comfortable.
I am gutted that I believe this guy knew what he was doing and subsequently my horse has suffered for a further 6 months.
There is a moral to this story.........
 
Just to add to that last post.....so often I read " he / she is good and do a good job"...or "he / she does the job properly".

With all due respect HOW DO YOU KNOW they have done a good job....the truth is that YOU dont. How do you know that they have left the molar table angles correct, they havent created any inhibiting rims on the edges of the arcades, that they have properly balanced the horses mouth.??? YOU dont have a clue if the work they have done is "GOOD" or not.

If a practitioner has passed either of the "INDUSTRY STANDARD" exam, they should be treatng every horse they treat aftyer that to the same standard as their exam horse.....If you havnt had an "exam horse", how do you know what the standard is. If you failed the exam because you didnt diagnose and treat that horse correctly....are you treating any subsequent horses out there in horsey world to the same substandard???

Dont encourage substandard treatment by allowing people to practice without acheiving a certain STANDARD of treatment. You are short changing yourself.....but MOST important of all.....you are short changing our horses.

Check people out....ask for certificates of attendance at courses.......ask to see exam pass certificates.......then ask for references, discuss prices, ask about "discounts" etc, etc,.
 
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, my two-pence worth...
I used an Australian trained/registered EDT in December last year. He was recommended to me and I thought he was very good.
I have become increasingly concerned since about my old girl's mouth so had my vet out this week to check. He was horrified by what he found and can't believe the EDT that treated her 6 months ago has let her go on with the level of discomfort she must have. She is booked to go to the vet dental clinic mext week for 2 teeth to be removed and so they can do their best to make her comfortable.
I am gutted that I believe this guy knew what he was doing and subsequently my horse has suffered for a further 6 months.
There is a moral to this story.........

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is the dentist registerd with.......there are only two associations who can examin and "APPROVE" EDT's in the UK. was he with one of these??? If he was you have a route down which to persue your complaint as each organisation has its own disciplinary proceedures.

He / she might have been registered.....but with whom. Its the horse owners responsibility to check things out. People have been know to make up organisations which dont exist just to make themselves appear "Criditable". E.G. I hear of dentists claiming to be NFU approved and registered.....NFU...National Farmers Union are and Insurance company. They are not in any way, shape or form approved to register of approve Equine Dental practitioners....they may isssue them with public liability insurance (not medical malpractice insurance, I may add), but they are in no position to approve anyone in this field of horse health.

Do you see the point Im trying to convey?
 
Believe me ponydentist, I couldn't feel any worse than I do.
He is a member of AEDP, his website is good, sounds like he knows what he is doing. Even if I'd asked him for certificates etc, I still wouldn't have known whether he knew what he was doing or not.
So the point I am trying to convey is HOW do we know?
 
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