your views on equine dentistry industry please

Here in the UK, Ignore any other organisations other than these:

British Association of Equine Dental Technicians BAEDT (www.baedt.com)

World wide Association of Equine Dentistry WWAED (www.wwaed.org)

British Equine Veterinary Association BEVA (www.beva.org)

These....and ONLY these organisations are the only organisations which are approved by the UK government to issue training and Qualifications to Equine Dental Practitioners wishing to practice in the UK.

Certifications with other worldwide bodies....However good they may be and although accredited in their country of origin, are not recognised here.....Just as are some human.
dental qualifications.

If a practitioner gets Foreign Training or Qualifications they still need to be assesed here in the UK to become APPROVED by the above 3 organisations. Some of the foriegn training may be good enough to get you through the exam......some of it may not. The exam over here was set up to safeguard and to some extent protect UK horse owners form substandard work.

Protect yourselves and ONLY use those practitioners VET and non NON- VET who are listed. By using others you are encouraging them NOT to get qualified.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the criteria for those who are qualified to get so, is to prove to you,,,their clients just how GOOD at their proffession they are. What is the criteria for not being qualified?????I would question the agenda of such persons....what do they have to loose???? loads of unknowlegable clients perhaps????
 
I'd always used an EDT who was BEVA/BAEDT registered and qualified and believed him to do a good job. I made sure he was qualified before using him and he also came highly recommended.

I first became suspicious when he told me to get a referral to the vet school as my mare needed her front tooth removed. It was slightly loose and food was impacting in that area but I cleaned her mouth daily. My vet gave me a referal off the back of the EDT's name without even wanting to look at the mare himself. EDT told me this would be under £100 to "fix" (not that money mattered, her well being did). Anyway at vet school the dental expert vet said in no way did the tooth need removing and packed it with dental wax as a short term measure to stop food impacting. This cost me just under £300.

I sadly lost this mare (unrelated to her teeth) and purchased a new gelding. I thought he might need sedating so as my vet advertised his dental skills (when questioned he said he'd done further training) I decided to use him for my 2 mares and new gelding. He refused to do my gelding
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and then didn't use a gag with the mares, pulled their tongues out, sedated them for no reason (they hadn't played up) and only seemed to touch the front of the mouth with the rasp.

I know I should have spoken up at the time but when you are a "pleb" you tend to trust the people who are qualified and experienced... needless to say I changed vet practices.

Meanwhile I got original EDT out to re-do mares and gelding. I'd bought the gelding in poor condition and he needed a full MOT so I knew his mouth wouldn't be good. EDT let me feel the inside of gelding's mouth when the gag was on and it was incredibly sharp with big waves. EDT worked away on it and said that was it done and because I'd never had a bad experience with him and he was the "expert" I took him at his word.

6mths later and they were all due a check up (I get my horse's teeth done/checked every 6mths) so I used the vet from my new practice for convenience. All the vets at this practice have done further dental training. He made light work of my mares but was shocked at my geldings mouth.

Gelding had very sharp edges, teeth were overgrown, he had an unerupted wolf tooth, massive waves and ramps. I asked if this could be 6mths of growth but as they only grow 2-3mm per year then this was years worth...

Vet had to use dremels to smooth it out and then finished it off manually before removing the wolf tooth. The change in my gelding's general manner and way of going has been immense.

I'm angry at myself for using EDT and first vet but when they are fully qualified and the "experts" what are you supposed to to? I did read up on it and made sure I was using someone suitably qualified and EDT has an excellent reputation...

I'm angry at EDT for not doing a proper job of gelding's mouth. If he'd told me he couldn't do it I would have had more respect for him but to leave it as it was claiming that it was "perfect now" is unforgivable in my eyes.

So my views on the equine dentistry industry is that how can you know who to use when even the highly qualified experts who come highly recommended don't do a proper job? Or at the very least can't be trusted to tell the truth.

Also, just to add, a few years back when EDT was unavailable I used another EDT who worded her advert to make it look as though she was qualified and when I questioned her said the website was just being updated as she'd done her BEVA/BAEDT exams. Turns out she wasn't qualified at all (although might be now)...

I'm just glad I have the vet practice that I use now and will continue to use them. I just wish they could shoe and then I'd never want for anything again
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Well done Scunny,
I guess you must have used David W??? and that you chose him on the criteria that he was "qualified" through WWAED. Good decision. (wonder who the other naughty dentist was and if those rumours were true). I know David well as I assisted him in his training and pointed him down the route he persued to becoming in his position within that particular organisation.

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Yes it is Dave. To be honest I didn't choose him through his qualifications, I'd been out of horses for 12 years so wouldn't have known where to start
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However, several people I knew including our then YO, farrier, bowen therapist and just last year our saddle fitter recommended him.

It's a good idea what you suggest about asking to see certificates, but in this day and age it would be so easy to whip an official looking one up on a computer how would just an average horse owner know if it was genuine? There really does need to be a tightening up in this area!
 
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So my views on the equine dentistry industry is that how can you know who to use when even the highly qualified experts who come highly recommended don't do a proper job? Or at the very least can't be trusted to tell the truth.

Also, just to add, a few years back when EDT was unavailable I used another EDT who worded her advert to make it look as though she was qualified and when I questioned her said the website was just being updated as she'd done her BEVA/BAEDT exams. Turns out she wasn't qualified at all (although might be now)...

I'm just glad I have the vet practice that I use now and will continue to use them. I just wish they could shoe and then I'd never want for anything again
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You shouldnt have had to endure that ata ll.....as well as the extra cost to yourself.

You were perfectly within your rights to have persued a complaint with the BAEDT with whom the dentist was registered. There is a complaints procedure and anything like this is taken seriously. You could also have persued a claim for negligence against the dentist as this is what his medical malpractice insurance is taken out to cover against.

If the dentist hadnt been registered you would have had no where to go

Glad you managed to get the horsese problems resolved. Was / is the vet who "fixed" the so called problem registered with the BAEDT or on the list held by the BEVA of approved dental providers???
 
Thats terrible dizzykizzy and I hate hearing stories like this.
The problem is that a lot of associations like the AEDP can be joined by anyone for a "fee"

The only professional association that regulates EDTs work and only allows qualified BEVA members to join is the BAEDT.
 
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So my views on the equine dentistry industry is that how can you know who to use when even the highly qualified experts who come highly recommended don't do a proper job? Or at the very least can't be trusted to tell the truth.

Also, just to add, a few years back when EDT was unavailable I used another EDT who worded her advert to make it look as though she was qualified and when I questioned her said the website was just being updated as she'd done her BEVA/BAEDT exams. Turns out she wasn't qualified at all (although might be now)...

I'm just glad I have the vet practice that I use now and will continue to use them. I just wish they could shoe and then I'd never want for anything again
tongue.gif


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You shouldnt have had to endure that ata ll.....as well as the extra cost to yourself.

You were perfectly within your rights to have persued a complaint with the BAEDT with whom the dentist was registered. There is a complaints procedure and anything like this is taken seriously. You could also have persued a claim for negligence against the dentist as this is what his medical malpractice insurance is taken out to cover against.

If the dentist hadnt been registered you would have had no where to go

Glad you managed to get the horsese problems resolved. Was / is the vet who "fixed" the so called problem registered with the BAEDT or on the list held by the BEVA of approved dental providers???

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There was 6mths between the EDT "doing" the horse and the vet coming out. I have no proof of his visit (no receipt and he didn't have any pads left to do a written report -at least so he said!) and tbh I just wanted my horse fixed. I just didn't have the evidence or documentation to report EDT and take it further
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Lesson learnt...
 
victoria im sure you must have forgotten again that there is 2 profesional organisations that regulate dentists work,it must be the heat that made it slip your mind again

chris
oh just to add looks like il be sitting my level 2 end of the year so hopefully il do ok
 
chrisnapthine you are doing yourself no favours furrhur sniping!

Sounds like bickering teenagers not proffesionals I would let loose on my horse!
 
This is an interesting thread and highlights a very important welfare issue for horses and other equines.

It is the law that needs to be tightened up. For every member of HHO that perhaps reads this thread and goes to the trouble of getting a BAEDT/BEVA EDT there are hundreds that know nothing about such things and continune to use unqualified people. Not through neglect - through ignorence and it is the horses that suffer.

I have used a variety of people. I used one guy that was not formally qualified but who was reccommended by my vet who did not feel he was skilled enough and thankfully admitted this and told me the EDT he would reccommend. I had to get the vet out to sedate at the same time. The unqual EDT did a very good job and does quite a few horses for Olympic level dressage riders. I did ask why he had never bothered qualifying but can't really remember what he said! In any event in that case I was happy to use this guy, particularly since I have also used BEVA qualified people that have not been so good.

For example one BEVA qualified guy did not use a gag on my 4 year old. He just stuck the rasp in and hoped for the best telling me it was 'just to educate her until next time when he would do a proper job'. I don't find that acceptable. This 4 year old was very easy to handle and there would have been no problem putting a gag on her. As TPO said - if you can't trust someone that IS properly qualified - and this guy will be well known to you EDT's as he is active in various organisations - then who do you trust? I also know of a BEVA EDT that left a donkey to die. The donk was so traumatised by the denistry carried out that it stopped eating and went into hyperlipemia. If the owner had not promptly got medical advice that donkey would have died. The EDT would return no calls and gave the owner no help or advice. Again this is someone very well known in the industry.

I have worked for an equine welfare charity and have seen many cases of very poor work carried out. Owners have paid their money but have no way of knowing if a good job has been done or not. Most owners do not realise a gag should be used! On the BVA website not that long ago there was a pic of a horse having its teeth rasped WITHOUT A GAG. FFS - this is on the vets website!!!! Here is the link -most of pic is gone now - it used to be a lot bigger but you can still see he is rasping teeth without a gag http://www.bva.co.uk/jobs_and_careers/BVA_vacancies.aspx

Most owners think they can trust their vet and why shouldn't they? If the BVA think its ok to rasp without a gag what is the hope for the average horse owner out there?
 
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Most owners do not realise a gag should be used! On the BVA website not that long ago there was a pic of a horse having its teeth rasped WITHOUT A GAG. FFS - this is on the vets website!!!! Here is the link -most of pic is gone now - it used to be a lot bigger but you can still see he is rasping teeth without a gag http://www.bva.co.uk/jobs_and_careers/BVA_vacancies.aspx

While a gag must be used for a large part of treatment (and to enable a full examination), there are some teeth that are best treated without the gag which can get in the way - particularly towards the front. Both my very good vet and my very good EDT will sometimes take the gag off to deal with a problem with one particular tooth.

Most owners think they can trust their vet and why shouldn't they? If the BVA think its ok to rasp without a gag what is the hope for the average horse owner out there?

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I've always used a BEVA qualified dentist. This year I swapped to a different one not because the previous one was doing a bad job it was just different circumstances which required the change. This time round I used 'PonyDentist' and yes he did a good job. Equally my previous dentist did a good job because even though their teeth were overdue, apart from the odd sharp edge here or there it was duly noted that all of my boys mouths were in pretty good shape. My old boy had a sharp edge which had caused some ulceration but that was sorted out very quickly. One of my boys had a tooth growing up which causing a problem with his munching and that was sorted out too without any fuss. All without motorised tools, sedation (my boys are top lads!) and in a very quiet, calm manner. My Shetland was also very well behaved, we only had to do 3 laps of the yard - that's quite good for her - she likes to do things on the move.

Where I work, we use Martin Brooks who is qualified through the other organisation I think and he again is really good. He has worked miracles with some really, really bad mouths.

I haven't had a bad experience using either of the BEVA dentists and Martin Brookes is treated like a god at work. However many years ago before qualified dentists became well known I used one unqualified guy who decided my shetland didn't need doing because 'if she had sharp teeth, she couldn't eat as well and that would prevent laminitis'

I think you can get good and bad qualified folk just like farriers and vets. There's a farrier in my area I wouldn't let near a rocking horse likewise with vets. But at least if you do pick up a qualified EDT then you have got a fighting chance that your horse's mouth is being dealt with correctly.
 
I have read this thread and there is some good information in here but it can be lost with the sidetracking and one on one discussions. I have added the piece below which I put together for our association website (www.wwaed.org) as I think it might provide some useful information for a horse owner, of which I am one.

I would also like to state that the WWAED and BEVA have both been approved by DEFRA and the RCVS to offer Level 2 examinations but as has been stated on here already, DEFRA have not completed the exemption order and therefore the legislation is not complete. However, if you select a dentist that has passed their Level 2 exams, then you know that the individual has demonstrated the competency to pass a regulated examination.

I would also like to point out that our association (WWAED) examines new members for Level 1 capabilities (our entrance exam) and if they pass they can become full members (albeit they will still have to move on to take their Level2 exam) and if they fail to pass within the timeframe they have to leave the association.

I apologise if you have read this article before and I also apologise for the lengthy post. I am also more than happy to answer any questions you may have at steve@wwaed.org

This piece was titled: What do you know about your horse dentist?

In the modern age of horse ownership, we know that we can take care of every need that our horse may have. We have veterinarians looking after the general well-being of our horse and we have farriers to look after their feet. If there are specific muscular, carriage or performance problems we can call on osteopaths, physiotherapists and even holistic healers. However, one area of the horse that can impact so many other areas is the horse’s mouth; cue the dentist.

Dental problems can surface in many ways. Your horse may start to act differently, perhaps becoming irritable or bad tempered because of the pain. They may try to avoid the painful area and give the indication of a back or leg problem when moving. Remember that when we place any kind of tack on a horse, even a head collar, we could be placing pressure on the painful area, making it even more difficult for the horse to avoid the pain. We might see condition deteriorate, weight being dropped. The horses’ general demeanour may change and they could become listless or disinterested. Other obvious signs might be difficulty when eating, dropping food or quidding if they are unable to chew properly.

We know that these problems are serious problems. In the wild when a horse experiences severe dental problems, death usually results. If a horse is unable to eat properly then it will struggle to survive. With domesticated horses, our solution is to call the dentist.

The big question is, how much do you know about your dentist? Did you know that anybody can buy a rasp and a bucket and begin to practise equine dentistry? They would not be breaking any laws! Now I am not trying to imply for one minute that this is the standard route into the equine dentistry profession, but remember, it is a possibility.

Most practising equine dentists today have taken the time and invested the money into training. However, even this is not as straightforward as it may seem.

Many dentists travel to the USA to attend equine dental training clinics and achieve a certification through this process. Did you know that in excess of 90% of equine dentistry performed in the USA is performed on a sedated horse? The statistics for the UK are almost exactly the opposite, with in excess of 90% of the dentistry performed in the UK being on non-sedated horses. This will mean that the techniques that the dentists are trained in could differ. It requires a lot more skill to work on a non-sedated horse without causing pain or damage within the mouth. Once again, I do not wish to generalise, as there are many good dentists around that have taken part in equine dentistry training courses in the USA. The problem for us as horse owners, is, how do we identify the good ones? I will come back to this later.

Other equine dentists have taken training courses in the UK. There are a number of establishments, usually run by practising dentists that can offer training in equine dentistry. Some of these establishments will offer certification at the end of the course, but this is only a certification according to the standards that they themselves have defined. Some of these establishments are now tailoring their courses to meet UK defined standards, but this is by no means across the board yet.

Other dentists have gone down the route of an apprenticeship. The problem here is that the pupil is only as good as the master, and if the master has not been trained correctly, then the pupil can not gain the right experience. Just imagine, an apprentice could be undertaking training from somebody who is self-taught!

Many vet practises are now offering equine dental services, and some of the vets have specialised in dentistry and are very capable. However, training to be a veterinarian only has 9 days on teeth, of which approximately 1 ½ days are devoted to equine teeth. As you can appreciate this does not properly prepare a new veterinarian for dentistry in the field. Also, you have to remember that a veterinarian has a responsibility for many other areas of the horse, not just the mouth and so it is difficult, albeit not impossible, for a veterinarian to build up the expertise that a practising dentist can.

Choosing a dentist is probably starting to look like a bit of a minefield now, however, there is a way to identify a good dentist and also to help ensure the maintenance of good dentistry standards.

The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (R.C.V.S.) and the Department for Food and Rural Affairs (D.E.F.R.A.) have been working together with representatives from the various equine dentist associations, to establish a standard for the UK. The standard is referred to as the Level 2 Exemption Order. This means that a number of procedures that were deemed to be covered by the Vet Act, will be allowed to be performed by equine dentists on the proviso that they have passed the Level 2 Exemption exam.

The Level 2 Exemption examination covers:

• Extraction of loose teeth
• Extraction of vestigial upper pre-molars or ‘wolf teeth’
• Dental hook removal
• Techniques requiring the use of dental shears, inertia hammers and powered dental instruments (including power rasps)
• Non surgical orthodontic treatments
• Treatment of fractured and diseased teeth
• Extraction of dental fragments and palliative rasping of fractured and adjacent teeth.


Therefore, by definition, Level 1 covers:

• Examination of teeth;
• Routine rasping (excluding power rasping);
• Removal of sharp enamel points, small dental overgrowths such as hooks and spurs;
• Bit seat shaping;
• Removal of loose deciduous caps; and
• Removal of supragingival calculus.

The R.C.V.S. and D.E.F.R.A. have approved two groups, the WorldWide Association of Equine Dentistry (W.W.A.E.D.) and the British Equine Veterinary Association (B.E.V.A.) to be able to offer this examination.

A number of dentists in the UK have now taken and passed this examination, and, although the Exemption order has not yet been introduced, you can be comfortable in the knowledge that the dentists have achieved a standard that has been identified by all of the governing bodies that are involved with equine dentistry in the UK.

Some veterinarians have also taken this examination and this denotes that while they may have had difficulty in gaining enough underlying experience in their veterinarian training and practise, they can now demonstrate sufficient skills to pass the Level 2 Exemption examination.

Currently, the W.W.A.E.D. is the only UK equine dentistry association that monitors the capability of their members to perform at Level 1. The W.W.A.E.D. requires their members to pass an entrance examination before they can become full members, and then provides continual assessment of members through to Level 2.

In summary, wherever your dentist received their training, the USA, the UK, through an apprenticeship or as part of their veterinarian training, if they have taken their R.C.V.S. and D.E.F.R.A. approved Level 2 examination, then you can be sure they are more than capable of performing the dentistry procedures needed by your horse. It is the only standard that all equine dentistry in the UK should be judged against.

Also, by ensuring that you only use Level 2 qualified dentists, you are discouraging untrained laypersons from performing dentistry on horses, and encouraging all dentists to achieve the Level 2 standard. If you check on the websites of the W.W.A.E.D. and B.E.V.A., you will find directories of all dentists that have passed the Level 2 Exemption exam.

At the end of the day, the only ones to suffer are the horses, and they don’t have a say in the discussion. This is your opportunity to speak on their behalf.

Steve Goode
President
WorldWide Association of Equine Dentistry
 
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