ZfdP Grading - The First in the UK !

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Amelia

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<font color="blue">On Saturday 8th September, We attended the first ZfdP grading in the UK.
Zuchtleiter, Hans Britze came from Germany to inspect mares, foals and stallions.
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We were absolutely delighted that our coloured filly JiveTimes' JiveTalking HH impressed Herr Britze and was awarded the coverted Premium Foal (Prämienfohlen), warmblood papers and branded. This was only her second outing; her first was to the BEF/Baileys Futurity were she was awarded a 1st Premium
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It was obviously a super day for JiveTime Sport Horses, we had a wonderful day, enjoyed the hospitality afforded us by Lesley Knowles and her team and met some lovely people.

Hans Britze commented that he was impressed with the quality of horses presented this year and looks forward to coming back to the UK in 2008.

It would be super if we could get other people interested in going next year, so that we could generate enough numbers to warrant the German ZfdP judges doing the Stallion Gradings in the UK too

Herr Britze is the Zuchtleiter of the ZfdP and is very knowledgeable and friendly - we will definitely be going again next year!

A couple of photos of our 2007 filly JiveTimes JiveTalking HH
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http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb144/PHOTOPLANNER/ZfdP%20GRADING%202007/JiveTalkingHHsml.jpg

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb144...Grading2007.jpg
 
Thanks everyone!!

I can’t tell you how nervous I was, this was my first ever time in the ring and I felt sick
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(my son usually does all the handling for me - but he is out of action)

Sacha: I have had a word about the 'date' for 2008 as we are wanting to attend the Trak show next year too
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Hello Opie !!!!
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and thanks for the lovely comments x
 
Congratulations Amelia!

It would be great if the ZfDP would make an annual visit with stallion licensings too. They would still have to go for performance testing to keep their breeding license - but it would be a brilliant start for coloureds &amp; all the other breeds they have studbooks for.

Did they say how many stallions they would need to make a licensing viable?
 
MMM Well I could see the advantage in that if the stallion performance tests were held in the UK but not everyone wants to send their horses to Germany,
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some of us enjoy being part of our stallions lives and development at home...
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perhaps something for them to think about....
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I believe the Bavarian Warmblood used to offer 100 day performance testing of stallions in Scotland which were accepted in Germany it would be great to see some of the British Studbooks offer the same ,then again even amongst Foreign stallion owners some believe that performance testing is not the answer and success in compeition along with measuring the quality of progeny is perhaps a better objective.
 
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MMM Well I could see the advantage in that if the stallion performance tests were held in the UK but not everyone wants to send their horses to Germany,
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some of us enjoy being part of our stallions lives and development at home...
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perhaps something for them to think about....
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I believe the Bavarian Warmblood used to offer 100 day performance testing of stallions in Scotland which were accepted in Germany it would be great to see some of the British Studbooks offer the same ,then again even amongst Foreign stallion owners some believe that performance testing is not the answer and success in compeition along with measuring the quality of progeny is perhaps a better objective.

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Yes I agree not everyone wants to send their stallions to Europe for testing or competition
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There always has been the alternative performance route to warmblood approval but if stallions are to be bred from early in their lives, before they have a competition record, I think performance testing is a good route to go down - as they get older, if they dont produce good foals presumably they wont get many mares?

I also think its particularly helpful in "niche" market ( ie coloured/spotted etc, etc ) stallions where they may ship semen across the world &amp; so have to be acceptable to register foals in "foreign" studbooks.

Each to their own I suppose
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Yes I have no doubt that there may be a few advantages but no harm having them right here in the UK!
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It would be great to see British studbooks offering such a service to stallion owners bringing the continental and British standards closer together rather than supporting the illusion that a stallion is only worth breeding from if it has been peformance tested on the continent!

Not sure there is much difference between a stallion being licensed at the age of 3 and not fully approved up to the age of five after performance testing, or a stallion being provisionally licensed and proving his capabililities in competition up to the age of five..... Surely a stallion that is constantly being placed in sport is equally as good a measuring tool as any?

Sadly our neighbouring studbooks are famous at refusing to recognise British Graded stallions to suit their own agendas. Not really sure to what extent they are complying to the EU directives and whether someone will force the issue in court one day but I guess they will try to monopolise the industry for as long as they can.
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In the meantime the EU Studbooks will happily walk into the UK, hold gradings etc and claim the best of British Bred horses as being their own... and we Brits are stupid enough to allow them to do it in hope that it will promote our sales......... when the reality is that vast numbers that are lured into such a false security are left with their stock on their hands.
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That isn't you in that photo is it?

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LOL!! Yes its me R x
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Cant believe I am so short - must have got shorter since dieting! lol
 

With regards to stallion grading and performance testing. I think it would be nice to have the option of being graded in the UK; but have to be honest with you R, I would send my coloured boy away for training/Performance testing if it was in his best interest and to someone I trusted.

Sambertino: Hi C, I can’t remember how many stallions I was told would be required &lt;I will ask again&gt; but it wasn’t that many and I for one would be interested in the opportunity of grading in the UK and then sending away to train for his performance test. Met you friend Mandy at the ZfdP grading - she is lovely.
 
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Did they say how many stallions they would need to make a licensing viable?

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Sambertino: The ZfdP would want to see around 30 stallions to justify them setting up a UK stallion grading which is quite a tall order - although 2 - 3 years down the line this may not be unreasonable.
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Thanks very much R!
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I still have a little more weight to loose (although I have lost over 11 stone now) --- all I have to worry about now is keeping the weight off ! lol.
 
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Did they say how many stallions they would need to make a licensing viable?

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Sambertino: The ZfdP would want to see around 30 stallions to justify them setting up a UK stallion grading which is quite a tall order - although 2 - 3 years down the line this may not be unreasonable.
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I couldnt see 30 UK stallions going forward, i dont think many of the studs books here get that many presented, well maybe if you add them all together they might
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OMG that is absolutely amazing!!!!!
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mind you don't fade away completely! A mega mega congratulations to you! really have only ever managed it once so no how hard it is, that really is some feat!

re before - yes send them away if you have to but its a damned shame one has to to gain credibility!
 

Springfallstud: It is a tall order, but I think it may be do-able in two - three years, especially as the ZfdP will look at most breeds.

Opie: Thanks - now I have to keep it off and that is hard work in itself and not to mention the fact that every single pound now takes more and more effort to loose even with a personal trainer ! lol

As to fading away - I dont think that will ever happen sadly !!! lol
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I do not think you would get 30 stallions forwards either for a ZfDp assessment but I think you would easily get 30 stallions forwards if a UK studbook offered the same on the provision that the EU studbooks recognised the test, which is uhum. very unlikely as that would enhance british stallions stauts and they couldn't possibly have that........
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I do not think you would get 30 stallions forwards either for a ZfDp assessment but I think you would easily get 30 stallions forwards if a UK studbook offered the same on the provision that the EU studbooks recognised the test, which is uhum. very unlikely as that would enhance british stallions status and they couldn't possibly have that........
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Thanks very much R!
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I still have a little more weight to loose (although I have lost over 11 stone now) --- all I have to worry about now is keeping the weight off ! lol.

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Congratulations - what an amazing feat!!

As far as getting 30 stallions it does seem quite a lot, but when you consider all the native breeds they take too, its probably not out of the question? I should think a lot will depend on how easy they are to contact &amp; if they do an English translation of their website!!!
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Bearing in mind that a performance test would require the dedicated and closed use of over 30 boxes, 5 or 6 berieter level trainers/riders, two indoor schools, a cross country course and a full time vet and nutritionist as well as the Stallion Test Manager and admin staff I do wonder where such a test could be held in the UK and how much it would cost per stallion.

OTOH, there has been a possibility muted for some time (by Lynne Crowden) of such a grading being organised at Nuetsted Doss (in Germany) but this has never taken off partly because of the cost which, even though it is a subsidized state stud with full time staff and the test would run to full in empty space, would be in the region to the owners of about £10,000 per stallion for 70 days. Given that the 30-day short option for competing stallions would still mean them just taking the same competitive route as many already do without automatic status of having completed the full peformance requirements for a tested stallion, that cheaper option has considerable problems too.

The requirement for 30 stallions is a standard one in Germany to make sure that the cohort is of statistical validitity when compling the bell jar distribution of final scores with 100 as average for the group -- performance test results are related to the performance of all stallions of that age undergong the test moderated by the performance standards in previous years rather than a ranking as to scores gained in the final assesment -- all of which must be of the same age. This again is a limiting factor, although indices / penalities can be added for older stallions. Bearing in mind the limited number of stallions put forward for grading in the UK before they are 5 years old -- let alone how few of those pass the initial inspection -- I can see the calculation of valid results (and the outraged reactions of stallion owners who feel they have been hard done by!) being almost impossible to manage. This is actually what put paid to the performance tests organised in the USA by several of its warmblood stud books working together. (Sadly one horse died during the final 2-day assessment as well and that certainly did not help matters :-( ). It was not lightly that Dr Haring once sadi to me 'Don't even think about performance testing in the UK. It's far more trouble than its worth and we would get rid of it in Germany if we could!'

As a point of info, the BBWA test was obviously much cheaper for those that took part becuase it was usually run on Gerhardt's land for Gerhardt's stallions but statistically, becuase the final assessments were done by the Bavarian State Stud officials the results were immiediately integrated into those done in Germany and the overall scores calculated accordingly.

Opie's point about the acceptability of a UK-based performance test (even if run by Germans) is certainly well made (see we do agree on some things :-)) but in fact even within mainland Europe some performance tests are more equal than others (sadly ZfDP tends to be at the lower end of the scale in Germany) and some stud books tend to demand higher grades of results (120 rather than 100 in their own test for instance) when deciding whether to overstamp stallions tested by a stallion centre not in their own districts. OTOH, some are also accepted as such closed shops (the owner of the centre almost always taking the top 5 dressage places with his own stallions for example) that a certain flexibility is allowed in these and lower scores (say 115 rather than 120) are acceptable.

As far as testing acceptability of performance tests and gradings under EU law is concerned, the provision for stud books to set their own standards -- and exlude or include any animal at will within their own rules -- is actually enthroned in the EU stud book directives on competition and they are therefore immune from any such legal action. Sorry to dash your hopes there Opie.

Finally two questions for those who were there. Firstly, were any non warmblood (eg native and M&amp;M breeds) there? I know that the ZfDP runs the short performance test for these in Germany and that some of the M&amp;M stud books were very concerned that they would try to approve non-licenced stallions of M&amp;M breeds (which the SPSS is specifically prohibited from doing by DEFRA) as if they did this would create considerable problems for them. And secondly, did the ZfDP say anything about setting up a daughter society in the UK or seeking DEFRA approval for ther plans as I know DEFRA are concerned about this, bearing in mind the catch-all nature of the ZfDP operation?
 
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Finally two questions for those who were there.
Firstly, were any non warmblood (eg native and M&amp;M breeds) there?

And secondly, did the ZfDP say anything about setting up a daughter society in the UK or seeking DEFRA approval for ther plans as I know DEFRA are concerned about this, bearing in mind the catch-all nature of the ZfDP operation?

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In answer to your questions.
1/. No I don’t believe there where any native breeds on the day.
2/. No mention was made to me by Herr Britze of plans to set up a daughter society.

We all had a super time and I certainly enjoyed listening to Herr Britze (all food for thought) ............ the showing/presentation of the horses (in my case mare and foal) was slightly different too .......... Never had to present 'inside' the triangle before ............Dx

Sambertino: I will have to pick your brains when it comes time to send my chap away - book me a place with Eckhard (sp?)now please for the end of 2008
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The requirement for 30 stallions is a standard one in Germany to make sure that the cohort is of statistical validitity when compling the bell jar distribution of final scores with 100 as average for the group -- performance test results are related to the performance of all stallions of that age undergong the test moderated by the performance standards in previous years rather than a ranking as to scores gained in the final assesment -- all of which must be of the same age. This again is a limiting factor, although indices / penalities can be added for older stallions. Bearing in mind the limited number of stallions put forward for grading in the UK before they are 5 years old -- let alone how few of those pass the initial inspection -- I can see the calculation of valid results (and the outraged reactions of stallion owners who feel they have been hard done by!) being almost impossible to manage. This is actually what put paid to the performance tests organised in the USA by several of its warmblood stud books working together. (Sadly one horse died during the final 2-day assessment as well and that certainly did not help matters :-( ). It was not lightly that Dr Haring once sadi to me 'Don't even think about performance testing in the UK. It's far more trouble than its worth and we would get rid of it in Germany if we could!'


Opie's point about the acceptability of a UK-based performance test (even if run by Germans) is certainly well made (see we do agree on some things :-)) but in fact even within mainland Europe some performance tests are more equal than others (sadly ZfDP tends to be at the lower end of the scale in Germany) and some stud books tend to demand higher grades of results (120 rather than 100 in their own test for instance) when deciding whether to overstamp stallions tested by a stallion centre not in their own districts. OTOH, some are also accepted as such closed shops (the owner of the centre almost always taking the top 5 dressage places with his own stallions for example) that a certain flexibility is allowed in these and lower scores (say 115 rather than 120) are acceptable.


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<font color="blue"> Whilst I am no expert we have had several stallions performance tested in Germany and there is no requirement to have a minimum of 30 stallions per test.

The last 12 years of HLP (300, 100 &amp; 70 day) &amp; 30 Tag test ( 30 day test) results from many of the testing stations are here

http://www.warmblutpferdezucht.de/

The Warendorf testing centre ( Westfalen ) has only 15 stallions of various studbooks on its 70 day test which will finish in October.

Privatly owned stallions can go to ANY testing station of their choice.

Stallions aged 5 years &amp; older will have a deduction of 5% on their overall score to take into consideration their maturity.

Neustadt - Dosse is run by the Brandenburg State stud &amp; is a very highly regarded testing station ( as you said not all testing stations are equal !) &amp; you will find ZfDP, Brandenburg, Westfalen, Hann, Oldenburg, KWPN etc horses on test here.

As far as I am aware Schlieckau is the only privatly run testing station.

Different studbooks require different scores for their approval.
Hannoverians, for example, require an overall score of 90 points for Hann bred stallions &amp; 120 points for stallions from other studbooks - this has nothing to do with the testing station.

I think the minimum pass score for all studbooks is 80 points for horses of their breeding, with or without a higher score required from "outside" warmblood studbooks.

If a Holstein bred stalllion was tested at Adelheidsdorf 70 day test it would still have to get 120 points even though it had been tested at the Hann testing station.



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Different studbooks require different scores for their approval.
Hannoverians, for example, require an overall score of 90 points for Hann bred stallions &amp; 120 points for stallions from other studbooks -

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Thanks for that info, so basically it would be harder for an Oldenberg stallion to gain approval with the Hanoverian society and is this reciprocal? I guess this is to discourage outside stallions studbooks from seeking approval and to encourage their own stallions to remain within their own studbook??

If this is the case can we conclude that such stallions fall into a higher standard? or would you say that stallions generally acheive 120 points at the higher end of the scale anyway?

also 120 out of what?

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I think the minimum pass score for all studbooks is 80 points for horses of their breeding, with or without a higher score required from "outside" warmblood studbooks

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sorry C, I'm confused is it a pass score minumim of 80 but 90 as mentioned with the Hanoverian only? and again 80 out of what?

and do I gather that both yourself and Celia believe that some stallion stations scutinise the stallions to a lesser or greater degree than others? Thus some stallion owners would be selective as to which stallion testing station would a) be easier to pass or b) provide greater credibility to a stallion if he passed his performace test at a particular test station?

and finally.....
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Can a stallion pass an initial license with one stud book, then trot off and do his performance test, then seek cross registration with one of the other studbooks providing that he reaches the scores demanded from the other studbook...

or do the stallions actually have to be presented at an inspection of the second/third/fourth choice studbooks......

TIA
 
I know when we brought our Oldenburg stallion (who is now sold
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) he had already done his 30 day test at one place and got excellent scores but he couldnt go there for his 70 as already fully booked and his scores wernt so good, Johanne said it was because they didnt like the horse as much as the other centre (who apperantly adored him) nor did they know him!!!! (know Johanne that was) He scored 92 which meant he could go into Rhineland, Westfalian and southern germany books straight away on his scores alone but couldnt go Hanovarian as needed 120 for them.

Opie the scores dont have a limit on them but they are the collective marks they get throughout the testing. when we tested ours out of the 18 ( if i rememeber correctly) tested only 3 got over 120.
 
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