springfallstud
Well-Known Member
He was also able to go into AES and SHBGB but not BWBS
ZfdP Grading - The First in the UK !
- Thread starter Amelia
- Start date
Ciss
Well-Known Member
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Thanks for that info, so basically it would be harder for an Oldenberg stallion to gain approval with the Hanoverian society and is this reciprocal? I guess this is to discourage outside stallions studbooks from seeking approval and to encourage their own stallions to remain within their own studbook??
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Yes, and absolutely right. Also only Oldenburg stallions with bloodlines that are 100% acceptable to the Hannoverian Verband would be accepted by them, but the OV is a much more open studbood as to bloodlines and would not/could not restrict stallions from outside to 100% Oldenburg blood.
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If this is the case can we conclude that such stallions fall into a higher standard? or would you say that stallions generally acheive 120 points at the higher end of the scale anyway?also 120 out of what?
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A bell jar curve usually ranging from 130 (top) to 70 bottom with the mid-level (norm) of all scores being 100 and the others, based on performance but positioned on the curve relative to each other, spread throughout the curve but obviously mostly clustered around 100. A score of 120 would indicate a stallion of international potential and top class bloodlines, 100 would be average for the tested cohort and 80 is a fail. The bottom level for the Hann Verband used to be 90 (so there are a whole host of Hann stallions in this country with a score of between 90 and 100 <sigh> but the German state bottom limit is 70. The ZfDP was origianlly created to provide a home for stallions scoring between 70 and 90 and for performance testing for some pomy breeds (not German Riding Ponies who are much more strict in their requirements) but that does not necessarily mean that the tests they run are automatically any easier.
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I think the minimum pass score for all studbooks is 80 points for horses of their breeding, with or without a higher score required from "outside" warmblood studbooks ?
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sorry C, I'm confused is it a pass score minumim of 80 but 90 as mentioned with the Hanoverian only? and again 80 out of what?
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Hope the above explains it, but as I'm not a mathematician and I don't think you must be easier as you did not grasp the significance of the bell jar distribution when I mentioned it before, it might not hel much. In the world of the non-mathematical the calculator is king!
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and do I gather that both yourself and Celia believe that some stallion stations scutinise the stallions to a lesser or greater degree than others? Thus some stallion owners would be selective as to which stallion testing station would a) be easier to pass or b) provide greater credibility to a stallion if he passed his performace test at a particular test station??
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Yes, Opie, welcome to the real world of stallion tests and how to place your stallion most effectively -- something British stallion owners are notoriously bad at, bascially becuase they don't know who to ask for advice about it -- and the stud book or test centre concerned sure isn't go to tell them!
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and finally.....
Can a stallion pass an initial license with one stud book, then trot off and do his performance test, then seek cross registration with one of the other studbooks providing that he reaches the scores demanded from the other studbook... ?
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Yes it happens all the time and at the highest level, eg the constant tooings and frooings between the Hannoverian Verband, Oldenburg Verband and Dnask Varmblod of stallions owned jointly by Blue Hors and Schockmohle
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or do the stallions actually have to be presented at an inspection of the second/third/fourth choice studbooks......?
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Lower scoring ones do (but do not have to do a second performance test), higher scoring ones generally not -- or it is only a briefest of formalities if they do have to turn up.
TIA
[/ QUOTE ]
HTH
Thanks for that info, so basically it would be harder for an Oldenberg stallion to gain approval with the Hanoverian society and is this reciprocal? I guess this is to discourage outside stallions studbooks from seeking approval and to encourage their own stallions to remain within their own studbook??
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and absolutely right. Also only Oldenburg stallions with bloodlines that are 100% acceptable to the Hannoverian Verband would be accepted by them, but the OV is a much more open studbood as to bloodlines and would not/could not restrict stallions from outside to 100% Oldenburg blood.
[ QUOTE ]
If this is the case can we conclude that such stallions fall into a higher standard? or would you say that stallions generally acheive 120 points at the higher end of the scale anyway?also 120 out of what?
[/ QUOTE ]
A bell jar curve usually ranging from 130 (top) to 70 bottom with the mid-level (norm) of all scores being 100 and the others, based on performance but positioned on the curve relative to each other, spread throughout the curve but obviously mostly clustered around 100. A score of 120 would indicate a stallion of international potential and top class bloodlines, 100 would be average for the tested cohort and 80 is a fail. The bottom level for the Hann Verband used to be 90 (so there are a whole host of Hann stallions in this country with a score of between 90 and 100 <sigh> but the German state bottom limit is 70. The ZfDP was origianlly created to provide a home for stallions scoring between 70 and 90 and for performance testing for some pomy breeds (not German Riding Ponies who are much more strict in their requirements) but that does not necessarily mean that the tests they run are automatically any easier.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the minimum pass score for all studbooks is 80 points for horses of their breeding, with or without a higher score required from "outside" warmblood studbooks ?
[/ QUOTE ]
sorry C, I'm confused is it a pass score minumim of 80 but 90 as mentioned with the Hanoverian only? and again 80 out of what?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hope the above explains it, but as I'm not a mathematician and I don't think you must be easier as you did not grasp the significance of the bell jar distribution when I mentioned it before, it might not hel much. In the world of the non-mathematical the calculator is king!
[ QUOTE ]
and do I gather that both yourself and Celia believe that some stallion stations scutinise the stallions to a lesser or greater degree than others? Thus some stallion owners would be selective as to which stallion testing station would a) be easier to pass or b) provide greater credibility to a stallion if he passed his performace test at a particular test station??
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, Opie, welcome to the real world of stallion tests and how to place your stallion most effectively -- something British stallion owners are notoriously bad at, bascially becuase they don't know who to ask for advice about it -- and the stud book or test centre concerned sure isn't go to tell them!
[ QUOTE ]
and finally.....
Can a stallion pass an initial license with one stud book, then trot off and do his performance test, then seek cross registration with one of the other studbooks providing that he reaches the scores demanded from the other studbook... ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it happens all the time and at the highest level, eg the constant tooings and frooings between the Hannoverian Verband, Oldenburg Verband and Dnask Varmblod of stallions owned jointly by Blue Hors and Schockmohle
[ QUOTE ]
or do the stallions actually have to be presented at an inspection of the second/third/fourth choice studbooks......?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lower scoring ones do (but do not have to do a second performance test), higher scoring ones generally not -- or it is only a briefest of formalities if they do have to turn up.
TIA
[/ QUOTE ]
HTH
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
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Thanks C xXx. How are you feeling today? Better ?
and how is the diet going?
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Hi D, not feeling that great today, the good thing about working in a Doctors surgery is that you get something to help.......
Was not looking great and the staff have been avoiding me like the plague in case I smit them all........
Am away to my bed now but should have gone ages ago, but have my own appraisal at 8am tomorrow, so trying to get organised for that one...........
On the diet front, am 2 pounds away from 3 stone.............not near as good as you however...........11 stone................one word...........WOW!!!!!
Thanks C xXx. How are you feeling today? Better ?
and how is the diet going?
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Hi D, not feeling that great today, the good thing about working in a Doctors surgery is that you get something to help.......
Am away to my bed now but should have gone ages ago, but have my own appraisal at 8am tomorrow, so trying to get organised for that one...........
On the diet front, am 2 pounds away from 3 stone.............not near as good as you however...........11 stone................one word...........WOW!!!!!
Damien
Well-Known Member
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but as I'm not a mathematician and I don't think you must be easier as you did not grasp the significance of the bell jar distribution when I mentioned it before, it might not hel much. In the world of the non-mathematical the calculator is king!
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you mentioned it in the same post -
a bell jar curve that is......
But I can accept that your not a mathematical genuis, never mind no one is perfect.......
and may be not a literate one either....
but as I'm not a mathematician and I don't think you must be easier as you did not grasp the significance of the bell jar distribution when I mentioned it before, it might not hel much. In the world of the non-mathematical the calculator is king!
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But I can accept that your not a mathematical genuis, never mind no one is perfect.......
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
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As a point of info, the BBWA test was obviously much cheaper for those that took part becuase it was usually run on Gerhardt's land
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Sorry for changing the subject somewhat but I am starting to figure out who I am speaking to here......well I will soon know...........
Didn't you judge at one of the BBWA Summer shows some years back.......you came up with your husband. If it was you I distinctly remember you being a tad legless on the German beer towards the end of the showing..........
In fact I am sure my hubby has somewhere a picture of you brandishing the beer in the middle of the arena at one point................ROFL..........
I apologise if this person is not yourself.........as I could be mistaken.....but on the other hand.............
As a point of info, the BBWA test was obviously much cheaper for those that took part becuase it was usually run on Gerhardt's land
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Sorry for changing the subject somewhat but I am starting to figure out who I am speaking to here......well I will soon know...........
Didn't you judge at one of the BBWA Summer shows some years back.......you came up with your husband. If it was you I distinctly remember you being a tad legless on the German beer towards the end of the showing..........
In fact I am sure my hubby has somewhere a picture of you brandishing the beer in the middle of the arena at one point................ROFL..........
I apologise if this person is not yourself.........as I could be mistaken.....but on the other hand.............
Damien
Well-Known Member
do please share
pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Damien
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that info Springfall much appreciated.
Ciss
Well-Known Member
Well apart from the legless and brandishing a drink bit (I very rarely drink) that does sound like me. Judging with Eberhardt Sekenburg is a pleasure and a learning curve that no-one should ever forgo if offered the chance -- but its sad that SHBGB who use him regularly don't seem to have learned much from his example.
magic104
Well-Known Member
"Didn't you judge at one of the BBWA Summer shows some years back.......you came up with your husband. If it was you I distinctly remember you being a tad legless on the German beer towards the end of the showing..........
In fact I am sure my hubby has somewhere a picture of you brandishing the beer in the middle of the arena at one point................ROFL.......... "
Not sure what relevance that has to someones knowledge?? And if it is the same person we are bothing thinking of, I for one have never seen them drinking anything but water. But as I said, what relevance it has, unless you are stating the person was too drunk to judge, or just mud slinging perhaps??
In fact I am sure my hubby has somewhere a picture of you brandishing the beer in the middle of the arena at one point................ROFL.......... "
Not sure what relevance that has to someones knowledge?? And if it is the same person we are bothing thinking of, I for one have never seen them drinking anything but water. But as I said, what relevance it has, unless you are stating the person was too drunk to judge, or just mud slinging perhaps??
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Magic..........I was not impying anything..........just that I wondered if it was the same person.....................nothing to do with mud slinging at all. I have not seen her in around 13-14 years if that is the case............so hardly anything to go by on what she does now.
Its not like people who judge cannot let their hair down either..........they are human after all..............
And if Ciss does not normally drink then that would explain why the beer acted very quickly because it was very strong stuff but also very palatable, and with a scorcher of a day it always went down a treat with many.
..........and normally by the end of the meal at night there was not normally many able to walk for themselves.......other than the Germans who were used to it...........
The German Beer was always part of the BBWA Shows and gradings as a BBQ would be going at lunchtime and the beer was readily available to judges and helpers. The atmosphere used to be superb and always very relaxed, and was always a great show.........
As I was part of the BBWA for a long time I remember all the judges that came to the shows each summer, in fact the year that Ciss went I organised it.
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Sorry for changing the subject somewhat but I am starting to figure out who I am speaking to here......well I will soon know...........
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Hence my statement above..............
And yes, a lot of people could learn an awful lot from Eberhardt, a man with a great vast amount of knowledge of many breed associations and horses, and not afraid to take a risk in the stallions he selects for his breeders at the Swaiganger State Stud. I have great respect for him........we had him up to Aberdeen a few years back talking about sports horse breeding..........it was a fantastic talk....
Its not like people who judge cannot let their hair down either..........they are human after all..............
And if Ciss does not normally drink then that would explain why the beer acted very quickly because it was very strong stuff but also very palatable, and with a scorcher of a day it always went down a treat with many.
The German Beer was always part of the BBWA Shows and gradings as a BBQ would be going at lunchtime and the beer was readily available to judges and helpers. The atmosphere used to be superb and always very relaxed, and was always a great show.........
As I was part of the BBWA for a long time I remember all the judges that came to the shows each summer, in fact the year that Ciss went I organised it.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for changing the subject somewhat but I am starting to figure out who I am speaking to here......well I will soon know...........
[/ QUOTE ]
Hence my statement above..............
And yes, a lot of people could learn an awful lot from Eberhardt, a man with a great vast amount of knowledge of many breed associations and horses, and not afraid to take a risk in the stallions he selects for his breeders at the Swaiganger State Stud. I have great respect for him........we had him up to Aberdeen a few years back talking about sports horse breeding..........it was a fantastic talk....
magic104
Well-Known Member
Thanks for clearing that up for me, I was a bit surprised at how it came across because you do not seem that sort of person. My apolgogies for jumping the gun. I hope your mare is on the mend, I seem to have missed any updates.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
No probs Magic...................and you know me well........am not like that..........it was just such a memorable show that year............such a shame that the BBWA folded as the summer shows were just fab........we always had great weather and it was good to see spectator, judges and the like enjoying themselves........
Ciss
Well-Known Member
It was a lovely show to judge at and I actually did it for at least 3 years so perhaps its not me that you are talking about. I do agree that the beer tent and the evening barbeque was a key part of the show *for many* (not excluding most of the organising cttee 
) but as I said I do not drink (never did so no change there in my behviour in 14 years (is it really that long, surely more like 10 at the most?), and on a hot day if I was taking in liquid it would have been diet Coke, especially if I was judging.
I do remember one very nasty incident at that show when someone on one of the forums (the H&H one had just started at the time) posted terrible libellous statements about how cruel Gerhardt was to his horses (I think it turned out to be a groom that had been sacked) and the H&H threatened to close down all the forums as a result. Were you there that year? Several members of the ctte rang me up and asked me if there was anyone I had noticed watching the classes that looked out of place and I gave them descriptions of a couple of people, but whether they were the ones or not -- or just passing photographers -- I never found out.
BTW, its not that I have anything against photographers -- should anyone try to hang that particular peculiarity on me -- its just that they looked a little strange and *happened* to have cameras hung around their necks.
I have a strong feeling of 'if you are in a hole stop digging' about this explanation so I'll not go into explaning their oddness any further!
) but as I said I do not drink (never did so no change there in my behviour in 14 years (is it really that long, surely more like 10 at the most?), and on a hot day if I was taking in liquid it would have been diet Coke, especially if I was judging. I do remember one very nasty incident at that show when someone on one of the forums (the H&H one had just started at the time) posted terrible libellous statements about how cruel Gerhardt was to his horses (I think it turned out to be a groom that had been sacked) and the H&H threatened to close down all the forums as a result. Were you there that year? Several members of the ctte rang me up and asked me if there was anyone I had noticed watching the classes that looked out of place and I gave them descriptions of a couple of people, but whether they were the ones or not -- or just passing photographers -- I never found out.
BTW, its not that I have anything against photographers -- should anyone try to hang that particular peculiarity on me -- its just that they looked a little strange and *happened* to have cameras hung around their necks
. I have a strong feeling of 'if you are in a hole stop digging' about this explanation so I'll not go into explaning their oddness any further!
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Ciss I dont remember that altercation at all..............there were many people who came and went at Straloch..................It had the right setup to be something very good...........just a shame how it all went.............but that is life I guess.............
They parted ways some time ago (although both still have a property on the old estate), Sue does not have any horses now I believe, barring a couple of highland ponies, and Gerhard still has some of the stallions..... The whole estate was sold, split up by a property developer and the south stables where all the stallions were stabled are now a very luxurious house! Very sad indeed.............
They parted ways some time ago (although both still have a property on the old estate), Sue does not have any horses now I believe, barring a couple of highland ponies, and Gerhard still has some of the stallions..... The whole estate was sold, split up by a property developer and the south stables where all the stallions were stabled are now a very luxurious house! Very sad indeed.............
Pendragon
Well-Known Member
Hello from Germany!
I read through your discussion and just wanted to clear a few things.
Regarding a ZfdP stallion grading to be held in the U.K. please note that this could be organized in case of at least 20 entries.
As to stallion performance tests please note that we are still bound to state rules. The final testing dates are still done with at least one commissioner of the Ministry of Agriculture.
Anyhow, these rules shall change in future as the German breeding associations shall gain more self control in this matter.
I am not able to tell you, when and how this will be realized.
As to EU regulations Breeding Associations recognized and within the EU do not have to have daughter organisations or offices in other EU countries anymore. This rule makes it a lot easier for all EU breeding associations to act within all EU countries.
As to translations of ZfdP forms or the ZfdP website I am not able to make an official statement.
I hope to see you all next year!
Best regards
Patricia
P.S.: Did anyone notice that Trakehners can be registered at ZfdP as well? Hans Britze is also a member of the Trakehnen Stallion Grading Commission - so there would be enough knowledge available.....
P.P.S.: I had a great weekend in the U.K.! So many nice and friendly people and wonderful horses!
Thanks to everyone and a special thanks to Lesley and Susan!
I read through your discussion and just wanted to clear a few things.
Regarding a ZfdP stallion grading to be held in the U.K. please note that this could be organized in case of at least 20 entries.
As to stallion performance tests please note that we are still bound to state rules. The final testing dates are still done with at least one commissioner of the Ministry of Agriculture.
Anyhow, these rules shall change in future as the German breeding associations shall gain more self control in this matter.
I am not able to tell you, when and how this will be realized.
As to EU regulations Breeding Associations recognized and within the EU do not have to have daughter organisations or offices in other EU countries anymore. This rule makes it a lot easier for all EU breeding associations to act within all EU countries.
As to translations of ZfdP forms or the ZfdP website I am not able to make an official statement.
I hope to see you all next year!
Best regards
Patricia
P.S.: Did anyone notice that Trakehners can be registered at ZfdP as well? Hans Britze is also a member of the Trakehnen Stallion Grading Commission - so there would be enough knowledge available.....
P.P.S.: I had a great weekend in the U.K.! So many nice and friendly people and wonderful horses!
Thanks to everyone and a special thanks to Lesley and Susan!
Pendragon
Well-Known Member
Thinking about the performance test, again.....
Besides the big and well known performance stations in Germany there is a private one in Lower Saxony (actually near my place) that has a licence for doing the performance tests as well.
I am not too sure on the exact costs for a 70 day testing, but as far as I remember the costs are around 3,000 Euros for this per stallion. Please note that a 70 day testing is required for stallions registered as German Warmbloods only.
Other breed studbooks do require 30 day testing or 15 day testing or even a 1 day stationary testing only. Some breeds do not require a stallion testing at all (depends on the rules of country of origin).
Maybe something could be arranged to have a certain number of stallions entered from the U.K.. This would keep transport costs low (shared loads), it would guarantee a certain lot number and maybe there could be something planned to do it at a suitable time within a year.
Besides the big and well known performance stations in Germany there is a private one in Lower Saxony (actually near my place) that has a licence for doing the performance tests as well.
I am not too sure on the exact costs for a 70 day testing, but as far as I remember the costs are around 3,000 Euros for this per stallion. Please note that a 70 day testing is required for stallions registered as German Warmbloods only.
Other breed studbooks do require 30 day testing or 15 day testing or even a 1 day stationary testing only. Some breeds do not require a stallion testing at all (depends on the rules of country of origin).
Maybe something could be arranged to have a certain number of stallions entered from the U.K.. This would keep transport costs low (shared loads), it would guarantee a certain lot number and maybe there could be something planned to do it at a suitable time within a year.