‘Most’ UK horses aren’t getting basic needs met - H&H Study

Ambers Echo

Ambers Echo

Still wittering on
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Main problems:

- lack of basic knowledge and experience
- proliferation of yards with inadequate turnout
- poor understanding of stress/fear/pain cues
- poor lifetime planning up to horses death

I agree with all that but actually would also say it’s not just ignorance and inexperience that leads to the above. Sometimes it’s sheer human selfishness. As people who DO know better still keep horses in for their own convenience and ignore pain/stress in pursuit of their own goals.


www.horseandhound.co.uk

Lack of turnout and knowledge mean ‘most horses’ welfare needs unmet

Lack of turnout and a dearth of owners with appropriate experience are among the drivers of the current equine welfare crisis – as most horses’ needs are not being met. The RSPCA has published Horse Sense, a comprehensive report commissioned by the charity and carried out by the University of...
www.horseandhound.co.uk www.horseandhound.co.uk
 
We now need better education (WHW are trying really hard) and better laws to protect horses. You see it on here all the time- people justifying cruel management because it suits them better. If you can’t find a yard that allows your horse its basic freedoms then you shouldn’t own that horse. Or you sacrifice something else- I coped for 10 years with no facilities so I could have happy horses out 24/7.
 
A long term poster on another thread defended the keeping of a horse in Romania, under a year old on its own, stabled at night, "turned out" in 5x15m during the day, still on its own, on the basis that people in other countries do things differently than we do, but it doesn't make it wrong.

It's a pretty frequent argument used, that other countries like Spain routinely keep their horses stabled full time. There's really no hope with attitudes like that around.
 
ycbm said:
A long term poster on another thread defended the keeping of a horse in Romania, under a year old on its own, stabled at night, "turned out" in 5x15m during the day, still on its own, on the basis that people in other countries do things differently than we do, but it doesn't make it wrong.

It's a pretty frequent argument used, that other countries like Spain routinely keep their horses stabled full time. There's really no hope with attitudes like that around.
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I’ve had to step away from that thread.
Horses are horses, their basic needs don’t change because they happen to be born in a different country. Things are never going to change for animals in these countries if people just blindly accept that ‘that’s the way it is’.
 
@ycbm I’ve only read the summary in the link which doesn’t elaborate - but yes that was my assumption. Plus spending all your available budget on buying the horse but no thought of a vet fund etc.

Eg there was a woman recently on FB who was selling a horse she had bought fairly recently, who now had undiagnosed lameness, because she couldn’t afford to investigate and just ‘wanted some of her money back’
 
Ambers Echo said:
And also being over-horsed: one driver of poor care was ‘mismatch between supply and demand of certain types of equine’.

I took that to mean not enough safe sensible horses. Perhaps because no one can make money by breeding safe allrounders any more?
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It's not the breeding of, it's the production of- people wanting safe, sensible alrounders don’t want to buy them as unbacked 3/4 yr olds, so someone has to put a lot of hours into producing them to be that way and that costs a lot of money.
 
ycbm said:
A long term poster on another thread defended the keeping of a horse in Romania, under a year old on its own, stabled at night, "turned out" in 5x15m during the day, still on its own, on the basis that people in other countries do things differently than we do, but it doesn't make it wrong.

It's a pretty frequent argument used, that other countries like Spain routinely keep their horses stabled full time. There's really no hope with attitudes like that around.
Click to expand...
When we went to Malta despite being around a couple of thousand on the island we never saw one out in the fields.

We were told by the local tour guides it was because it was too hot and they go out at night. Same with sheep/cows and goats, never saw any on our sightseeing trips in the coach.

It's was so sad.
 
TheMule said:
It's not the breeding of, it's the production of- people wanting safe, sensible alrounders don’t want to buy them as unbacked 3/4 yr olds, so someone has to put a lot of hours into producing them to be that way and that costs a lot of money.
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I think it's both Mule. I used to love buying unbacked or green 3 or 4 year olds and spending a couple of years taking them everywhere and teaching them everything. For people like me seeing them change fast is the thrill and selling them when they are established gave someone else the horse they needed. The supply of raw all rounders has to be there first, though, and that does seem to have dried up. And those that are availability are so often bred from broken down mares which never stood up to work, whose owners can't bear to put a relative healthy horse down and think they are doing the right thing by giving them away to low end studs. Not that it's exclusive to low end studs. I know a decent warmblood stud who paid a friend for a warmblood mare who'd had her hocks fused before 10 years old in spite of a very low mileage.
 
Birker2020 said:
When we went to Malta despite being around a couple of thousand on the island we never saw one out in the fields.

We were told by the local tour guides it was because it was too hot and they go out at night. Same with sheep/cows and goats, never saw any on our sightseeing trips in the coach.
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I don't get your point B. If horses are turned out at night there's no issue, is there?

We aren't talking about not seeing horses turned out, we're talking about knowing horses aren't turned out. We're frequently told on the forum that it's routine in southern Europe to stable working horses full time.
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ycbm said:
I don't get your point B. If horses are turned out at night there's no issue, is there?

We aren't talking about not seeing horses turned out, we're talking about knowing horses aren't turned out. We're frequently told on the forum that it's routine in southern Europe to stable working horses full time.
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Sorry I lost the gist. Yep.
 
My yard doesn't have turnout from Oct to Mar as we have 10 horses on 10 acres, so if they make their fields look like the somme then we don't have anything to rotate on to let it recover. He copes with it just fine, they'd only be standing at the gate waiting to come in, plus he cost me too much money to risk soft tissue injury slipping and sliding. He has lots of hay and lickits to keep him entertained and goes on the walker every PM and other than being slightly more difficult to ride and having to be led to the walker in a chifney and chewing the wood on his stable door, and being grumpier to groom he's totally fine.

KIDDING - I would never do that to a horse, if I couldn't provide turnout he would be loaned to someone that can. However, I have read variations of that paragraph so many times, and it makes me feel thoroughly depressed every time.
 
We don’t have enough turnout and I hate it. It will put me off having another horse but I can only do my best for my current horse. It’s not easy to solve, the land simply cannot cope and there isn’t more land available.
 
ycbm said:
I think it's both Mule. I used to love buying unbacked or green 3 or 4 year olds and spending a couple of years taking them everywhere and teaching them everything. For people like me seeing them change fast is the thrill and selling them when they are established gave someone else the horse they needed. The supply of raw all rounders has to be there first, though, and that does seem to have dried up. And those that are availability are so often bred from broken down mares which never stood up to work, whose owners can't bear to put a relative healthy horse down and think they are doing the right thing by giving them away to low end studs. Not that it's exclusive to low end studs. I know a decent warmblood stud who paid a friend for a warmblood mare who'd had her hocks fused before 10 years old in spite of a very low mileage.
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BITD people bred from a mare because she was a fabulous hunter/workhorse/useful animal. You may have used an HIS stallion. You ended up with usually the perfect cross, not too big, sound as a pound and level headed.
But now people want an 18hh ultra flexi warmblood that looks super cool.add that to really poor management and it’s a perfect storm.
 
Mine went out in a large sandpit area for two hours a day with a friend as the fields were peat based, each horse was paired and had two hours each day. It was between Nov to March, he was ridden everyday and rehabbing him from an injured leg I was glad he wasn't trawling through a deep wet peat bog. In the March to Oct he was out between 12 to 24hrs a day.

When I visited the yard prior to moving there and asked the question " do you turn out 365 days a year?" I was told yes.

If I ever move yards again (not that I ever plan to as the current yard is and always has been 'home') I would ask more specific questions "what does that turn out involve?" Lesson learnt.

Mine is in a paddock, albeit a very decent sized one but most horses are strip grazed as the yard has very good grazing ex dairy grazing so it's for his own safety and to manage his weight.

The thing is there is no 'one size fits all' with horses, as each horse, each field and each yard is different and individual.
 
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I think in some parts of the country there isn’t the land available for horses, we are on clay and some yards don’t have enough land to allow winter turnout, but if you care enough about your horses you travel a bit further to get all year turnout. We had limited grazing but ours went out every day in winter unless it was dangerous due to icey conditions but our YO rented some other fields away from our yard that we used in the summer for 24/7 turnout so our winter fields could be rested.. we were luckier than some.. there are too many people owning horses who have no idea how they should be kept and think it’s very important that the horses are clean all of the time so don’t want them out in mud
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
My yard doesn't have turnout from Oct to Mar as we have 10 horses on 10 acres, so if they make their fields look like the somme then we don't have anything to rotate on to let it recover. He copes with it just fine, they'd only be standing at the gate waiting to come in, plus he cost me too much money to risk soft tissue injury slipping and sliding. He has lots of hay and lickits to keep him entertained and goes on the walker every PM and other than being slightly more difficult to ride and having to be led to the walker in a chifney and chewing the wood on his stable door, and being grumpier to groom he's totally fine.

KIDDING - I would never do that to a horse, if I couldn't provide turnout he would be loaned to someone that can. However, I have read variations of that paragraph so many times, and it makes me feel thoroughly depressed every time.
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You caught me out there, I was about to explode. I would put a laughing emoji up but the subject is too serious. Yes we've heard that excuse far too much, haven't we?

Last time round I really wanted to go back to the place with the fantastic facilities so I deliberately bought an institutionalised horse who had wintered out badly in spite of his £400 rugs and unlimited haylage. He was thrilled with only going out three hours a day. I couldn't subject Ludo to that after the paradise I brought him up in so I moved as soon as the winter hours were announced. The place had no hacking, but it had the best group turnout within miles.
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People have been bringing their animals in for the winter since medieval times. There are calves in barns all over my hacking routes and cows in cow sheds all winter long. They are in a group and can move around, but they are in all winter.

I think that as a country we are going to need to rethink winter turnout practices if the weather stays this wet. It is not good horse welfare to turn out on flooded fields or knee deep mud, and that is what we end up with in many parts of the country/soil types. The answer isn’t to insist on turnout on land that cannot take it - even at one horse per several acres - the answer is all weather pens and a lot more exercise. I was brought up with an understanding that a horse needs a minimum of two hours of exercise with splitting that into twice a day if sound and stabled for a period of time. I have had to do so on occasion and those horses stayed sane and happy. In the days before cars, horses were not turned out all winter but they were used as transport so they got out of that stall and moved all day. We cannot stick them in and not work them - and that is a casualty of modern working hours and a lack of education.

I have kept my ponies out 24/7 for nearly all my adult life. Last winter was horrific and the land could not take it. It led to horrible mud, one injured pony and general misery. This winter I sorted out the stables and used them. They went out every day and were ridden. The fields held up better so that time outside was enjoyable - no mud, grass all winter long. It cost a fortune but has been worth every penny.

The lack of suitable horses is a casualty of everyone wanting something for nothing. Why should I use my skills and time to train a horse from unbacked to nice allrounder, only to sell it at most for the cost of its keep for those training years? And where do I get the education to do that? Mine came from an ex dealer who had become injured and was teaching instead - but in the years since we moved away I have not met anyone else like her. She could take any horse and tell you exactly what was going on, what to do, how to develop them under saddle. Not just any fancy warmblood but literally anything sound with any conformation and prior training (or not). I spent every spare penny I had on lessons while we were there and I have never regretted it.

The rest of the knowledge lack? Insurance has a lot to answer for! You cannot hang around anywhere and help for free now due to fear of a liability claim, so if you do not come from a horsey family, how do you learn? For your average RS rider all I see is time on a horse and very little actual learning. It used to be bad but now seems even worse - months and hundreds of pounds to be unable to rise in balance at the trot or use the reins.

The answer to most of it is education - not that it is available or that people want to pay for it.
 
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maya2008 said:
People have been bringing their animals in for the winter since medieval times. There are calves in barns all over my hacking routes and cows in cow sheds all winter long. They are in a group and can move around, but they are in all winter.

I think that as a country we are going to need to rethink winter turnout practices if the weather stays this wet. It is not good horse welfare to turn out on flooded fields or knee deep mud, and that is what we end up with in many parts of the country/soil types. The answer isn’t to insist on turnout on land that cannot take it - even at one horse per several acres - the answer is all weather pens and a lot more exercise. I was brought up with an understanding that a horse needs a minimum of two hours of exercise with splitting that into twice a day if sound and stabled for a period of time. I have had to do so on occasion and those horses stayed sane and happy. In the days before cars, horses were not turned out all winter but they were used as transport so they got out of that stall and moved all day. We cannot stick them in and not work them - and that is a casualty of modern working hours and a lack of education.

The lack of suitable horses is a casualty of everyone wanting something for nothing. Why should I use my skills and time to train a horse from unbacked to nice allrounder, only to sell it at most for the cost of its keep for those training years? And where do I get the education to do that? Mine came from an ex dealer who had become injured and was teaching instead - but in the years since we moved away I have not met anyone else like her. She could take any horse and tell you exactly what was going on, what to do, how to develop them under saddle. Not just any fancy warmblood but literally anything sound with any conformation and prior training (or not). I spent every spare penny I had on lessons while we were there and I have never regretted it.

The rest of the knowledge lack? Insurance has a lot to answer for! You cannot hang around anywhere and help for free now due to fear of a liability claim, so if you do not come from a horsey family, how do you learn? For your average RS rider all I see is time on a horse and very little actual learning. It used to be bad but now seems even worse - months and hundreds of pounds to be unable to rise in balance at the trot or use the reins.

The answer to most of it is education - not that it is available or that people want to pay for it.
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I think you are right about lack of places for people to learn how to look after horses . From the age of 11 I was at the riding school as much as I could , I learnt so much there and when you are young it’s easier to absorb knowledge and I also was an avid reader of any horse books I could find. We had no turnout at the yard but every horse and pony was ridden daily for 2 to 4 hours and they all had Mondays as a day of rest when we would take them to a grassy part of the forest and graze them in hand so we did try to give them the best we could manage..but in hindsight it wasn’t good enough. If I had my own place with a decent amount of grazing I would like to have horses out 24/7 with large field shelters available so they could get out of the wind, rain, sun, flies etc if they wanted to but not many people would be able to afford to buy a large amount of land
 
Do you think the welfare bit is down to the owner or the yard owner? After all, it is the yard owners who are restricting turn out, and not providing a loafing area. If there was at least a voluntary code setting out basic expected standards, would the welfare issue improve? I don't know anyone who is comfortable keeping the horse stabled all winter, and we are lucky that we have a turn out pen for four or five hours a day.
 
Ambers Echo said:
@ycbm I’ve only read the summary in the link which doesn’t elaborate - but yes that was my assumption. Plus spending all your available budget on buying the horse but no thought of a vet fund etc.

Eg there was a woman recently on FB who was selling a horse she had bought fairly recently, who now had undiagnosed lameness, because she couldn’t afford to investigate and just ‘wanted some of her money back’
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This makes me so sad...and mad.

They are living, breathing creatures. Sadly it goes t*ts up sometimes, do your best by them and get them treated. We spent thousands on mine, and many more thousands afterwards too.

If you don't/cant do this then do the right thing and pts. Some people are selfish.
 
maya2008 said:
People have been bringing their animals in for the winter since medieval times. There are calves in barns all over my hacking routes and cows in cow sheds all winter long. They are in a group and can move around, but they are in all winter.

I think that as a country we are going to need to rethink winter turnout practices if the weather stays this wet. It is not good horse welfare to turn out on flooded fields or knee deep mud, and that is what we end up with in many parts of the country/soil types. The answer isn’t to insist on turnout on land that cannot take it - even at one horse per several acres - the answer is all weather pens and a lot more exercise. I was brought up with an understanding that a horse needs a minimum of two hours of exercise with splitting that into twice a day if sound and stabled for a period of time. I have had to do so on occasion and those horses stayed sane and happy. In the days before cars, horses were not turned out all winter but they were used as transport so they got out of that stall and moved all day. We cannot stick them in and not work them - and that is a casualty of modern working hours and a lack of education.

I have kept my ponies out 24/7 for nearly all my adult life. Last winter was horrific and the land could not take it. It led to horrible mud, one injured pony and general misery. This winter I sorted out the stables and used them. They went out every day and were ridden. The fields held up better so that time outside was enjoyable - no mud, grass all winter long. It cost a fortune but has been worth every penny.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should all be using the phrase: Friends, Freedom, Forage more than the phrase 'Turn-out'. Some turn out achieves the 3 Fs -but you're right - plenty doesn't. A lot of horses are out alone on a postage stamp of a field for a 'leg stretch'.

And you can achieve them in different ways: track systems, spacious indoor group spaces.
 
splashgirl45 said:
I think you are right about lack of places for people to learn how to look after horses . From the age of 11 I was at the riding school as much as I could , I learnt so much there and when you are young it’s easier to absorb knowledge and I also was an avid reader of any horse books I could find. We had no turnout at the yard but every horse and pony was ridden daily for 2 to 4 hours and they all had Mondays as a day of rest when we would take them to a grassy part of the forest and graze them in hand so we did try to give them the best we could manage..but in hindsight it wasn’t good enough. If I had my own place with a decent amount of grazing I would like to have horses out 24/7 with large field shelters available so they could get out of the wind, rain, sun, flies etc if they wanted to but not many people would be able to afford to buy a large amount of land
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Me too SG. Think we are the same sort of age bracket.

I learnt to ride at 11, I was diagnosed with a very small learning difficulty (possible autism) and Mum and Dad thought it would be good for me as I was slipping behind in school.

I helped at the riding school from about 14, we'd be there all day with a flask of soup and a sandwich for lunch. Literally 12 hours a day!

I then had a horse on loan so Mum and Dad could tell I wasn't put off with the dedication and responsibility and the cold wet mud of the winter.

When i was able to prove I was competent I was then bought a horse of my own and pulled up sharply if I did anything wrong or cut any corners. Again at the yard 12 hours a day.

I learnt so much from books, magazines, and telly too.
 
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