‘Most’ UK horses aren’t getting basic needs met - H&H Study

[Ambers Echo]

I agree with @JFTDWS - it’s not just owners who need to take responsibility, it’s yards. And also welfare legislation. It has become normalised to run a yard with horses in from Oct-May. Or for individual turnout only. Things need change at all levels. Yards should adhere to minimum welfare standards. And sone form of freedom and friends should be the standard.

On a related note, I think horses who are unsafe in warmups should be eliminated. Not allowed to just leap around scattering other horses in their wake. It’s unsafe ( I’ve seen horses running jump adjusters over), it’s unfair on the other competitors and their horses, and it’s bad for horses who aren’t coping. If people knew their horses had to warm up calmly to continue to the round then the owners would care a lot more about making sure they were prepared for it.

 

[whirlwind]

Lucky enough to have land and to be able to keep my guys as I like but totally agree with the lack of horse centric yards around. Before having this set up we had some on livery and round here it seems to be totally one or the other between yards with facilities but very little turnout and fields to rent. My lot this morning on their mud control/ dirt shelter and loafing area

 

[JFTDWS]

FWIW I have sympathy for small yard owners, or non-horsey yard owners who aren't able to charge what they would need to make big changes, or are just responding to what their liveries seem to want. I'm not suggesting that they're part of the problem - but that they could become part of the solution, starting with small changes where they can and in accordance with budget.

I do find myself really disappointed in owners who choose personal facilities over basic welfare. That's not aimed at anyone specific on this thread - I don't know most people's individual set ups enough to judge - but it is aimed at the horsey high end yard owners / liveries on yards like the one I described before / who push for yards to put in more arenas and accept poor turnout. I feel further and further removed from the horse world every passing year - and I have three of the little devils.

 

[paddy555]

" - people are saying that things need to change so that these aren't people's only options. A surfaced area is achievable on rented land - mud control mats (or similar) are expensive but effective to create some hard standing or a track. If liveries pushed for these types of horse accommodations instead of human conveniences, that might promote change in higher end yards. The space used for a horse walker, for example, would make a small two horse pen for a fraction of the cost. For the cost of the walker. but a bit more space, you could have multiple pens, and horses could have a few hours each in paired turnout each day. That's not how I would choose to keep horses, but it's a lot better than the current situation on some yards.

I left an expensive full livery yard largely because of the poor turnout in winter. They had "nice" human facilities - a tea room with sofas, a huge square yard which looked posh (a massive waste of space!), one good sized indoor arena and another one that was massive, huge surfaced parking area and unused fields with jumps and gallops. They've recently put in another indoor arena, but there is, if anything, less turnout for more horses. They have all the potential for putting in turnout - e.g. creative adaptation of a section of the car park, or surfaced pens instead of the extra arena. There's so much wasted space. But that's not what many people seem to want to pay for.

this.

I don't think most of the people posting on this thread or even HHO are particularly representative of horse owners. Most here at least understand the problems and are trying their best to make improvements for their horses even if they are limited.
If you look at a standard livery yard then I can only think that things would change if there was a surge of pressure for change from the owners.

Many yards are badly planned and built. They have been expensive to build but the original design is all wrong (for the horse) and change would be expensive.

If you polled livery owners at many yards with the question "we have 50K to spend do you want pens etc for your horses or that nice new indoor/jumping track/ or whatever facility

I suspect many would choose the latter.

If you asked them if they wanted you to spend money on pens/yards/tracks etc etc for which livery charges would have to increase or just to leave things as they are ie horses each side of the aisle in an American barn then I wonder what the response would be.

so much could be done for yard design/horse enrichment. If so much money hadn't been spent on poor design in the first place but things never seem to progress.
I remember articles written by I believe Susan McBane well over 25 years ago. She talked about "cages" total uproar of course from horse people to think their precious 12 x 12 stable could be thought of as a cage. Since then some understood the problems of horse welfare and gone off on a tangent with track liveries, winter hard pens but I'm not so sure about the rest. There still seem to be many 24/7 cages, overcrowding in horse establishments ie more horses than land/facilities.

at the end of the day this is an expensive hobby. Some owners seem to have limitless money to spend on 3.5 tons or lorries, trailers, entry fees,, clothing, matchy matchy, any number of coloured saddle pads but would resent having to divert that money to increased livery fees to get their horse more space.

however in the meantime we have the reality of the last 2 sentences in the quote above.

 

[maya2008]

I lived in continental Europe as a child, in a country with a high population density and fairly low lying land. Winter turnout was in the (large, 40x80m or more) arena the stables were built around. And they were worked. Outside simply turned into a bog over winter and was best left well alone.

It seemed odd to me, given that at my boarding school in England (and at friend’s houses) there was plenty of well draining land so horses and ponies were out all year round - but in most cases where I went the ponies seemed happy enough. 3-4 months indoors vs the rest of the time outside, and group chat/run time built in when inside.

 

[SEL]

I lived in continental Europe as a child, in a country with a high population density and fairly low lying land. Winter turnout was in the (large, 40x80m or more) arena the stables were built around. And they were worked. Outside simply turned into a bog over winter and was best left well alone.

It seemed odd to me, given that at my boarding school in England (and at friend’s houses) there was plenty of well draining land so horses and ponies were out all year round - but in most cases where I went the ponies seemed happy enough. 3-4 months indoors vs the rest of the time outside, and group chat/run time built in when inside.

Holland? I was not far over the border in Germany and the yard had cracking arenas but nothing was turned out in winter. The yard I rode at in Holland a few times was the same. Complete opposite to when I was tiny in the UK where the RS chucked everything out in big fields because they only had 5 stables.

If planning & money weren't an issue I'd have a stone track built around the circuit of my land. Decent area to move, bits to nibble and no mud.

 

[Celtic Jewel]

Here is my opinion to many people are running livery yard on land only suitable for private use as there isn’t enough space for multiple horses. It’s not ethical to keep horses in for a whole winter just because they don’t have enough land or a proper set up. I think it important to realise that owning or loaning a horse is privilege not a right and yeah in the future there will be less people owning horses and the average person probably won’t afford horses , i rather see ethical horses ownership and maybe not accessible to everyone but the horses getting their needs met.

 

[PurBee]

A long term poster on another thread defended the keeping of a horse in Romania, under a year old on its own, stabled at night, "turned out" in 5x15m during the day, still on its own, on the basis that people in other countries do things differently than we do, but it doesn't make it wrong.

It's a pretty frequent argument used, that other countries like Spain routinely keep their horses stabled full time. There's really no hope with attitudes like that around.

Agreed. When i was browsing in spain, portugal and italy for properties, there were many listing a property without land but with a stable/barn as ‘equestrian’.
‘A stable for a horse’. I wondered where they would graze and realised it’s evidently the norm to just keep them stabled, without turn-out.

I just hope the growing awareness with younger generations of let’s say natural horsemanship principles, means that includes an insistence of changing the tradition of stable housed horses.

 

[LEC]

I agree with @JFTDWS - it’s not just owners who need to take responsibility, it’s yards. And also welfare legislation. It has become normalised to run a yard with horses in from Oct-May. Or for individual turnout only. Things need change at all levels. Yards should adhere to minimum welfare standards. And sone form of freedom and friends should be the standard.

On a related note, I think horses who are unsafe in warmups should be eliminated. Not allowed to just leap around scattering other horses in their wake. It’s unsafe ( I’ve seen horses running jump adjusters over), it’s unfair on the other competitors and their horses, and it’s bad for horses who aren’t coping. If people knew their horses had to warm up calmly to continue to the round then the owners would care a lot more about making sure they were prepared for it.

I had one the other day who was great in dressage and Sjing and a fruit loop in the xc warm up so should I be eliminated? Cantering sideways, bucking and generally being a menace.

 

[Highmileagecob]

It's an awkward one. Unless a hard surfaced or under cover turnout pen is provided, most land in the UK is unusable in the depths of winter. If facilities should be provided, then you get into the realms of licensing and legislation to ensure that basic needs are met. I would bet that most livery yard owners are fully aware of the need for perfect facilities, but cannot provide them for reasons of cost or cost effectiveness. Unless a basic code is produced and circulated, even a voluntary code, nothing will change. If a voluntary code was produced and adhered to, then maybe the yard could display a certificate agreeing to comply? Much more peer pressure is needed, and input from professionals.

 

[Roxylola]

Here is my opinion to many people are running livery yard on land only suitable for private use as there isn’t enough space for multiple horses. It’s not ethical to keep horses in for a whole winter just because they don’t have enough land or a proper set up. I think it important to realise that owning or loaning a horse is privilege not a right and yeah in the future there will be less people owning horses and the average person probably won’t afford horses , i rather see ethical horses ownership and maybe not accessible to everyone but the horses getting their needs met.

I hope you're right, but personally I can see it going the opposite way. The people who can afford to keep horses in such a way can afford to spend a considerable amount buying horses and want to safeguard their "investment" by limiting the possibility of injury and damage. As we know thats a bit like trying to safeguard a 600kg toddler.
I see this being a bit like the dog care license stuff that came in - allegedly for welfare but in reality very easy to comply from a business standpoint (ie puppy farms) and not so much for welfare

 

[Ambers Echo]

I had one the other day who was great in dressage and Sjing and a fruit loop in the xc warm up so should I be eliminated? Cantering sideways, bucking and generally being a menace.

I was thinking more of SJ tbh. Indoor small warmup - with horses literally crashing into other horses. Cantering sideways isn’t necessarily the issue. It’s rearing, going over backwards, getting far to close to other horses. etc , Maybe calm was the wrong word - but yes I think the horse should be more or less under control. A bit like dogs. Some horses are going to struggle with that - just like they struggle with the walk or give and retake in dressage. It forces people to focus on it. BS SJ warmups can be totally carnage which is unfair on the horse and the others trying to warmup.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I think we must be extremely lucky with our ground but we have 5 living out 24/7, all year (bar any illness of course), on something like 3 acres in Bedfordshire. That's two big horses, a medium pony, a small pony and a mini. We do have muddy areas in winter of course but most of the field stays dry. We have some mud mats in the worst areas and we move hay feeders around an area we sacrifice so that the horses don't stand in the wet.

Our grazing is poor as it's essentially overgrazed, but we feed quality hay and a balancer all year and find that much easier than having to try and restrict fatties. We have some stables but no arena and terrible hacking but the horses have freedom, forage, friends and shelter. I cannot imagine keeping horses any other way and if we do not have our own land in the future, we will not have horses... this herd are all older and retired so we're just seeing them through their older years currently.

I realise we are privileged to be in this position and that I've grown up with horses at home, so that obviously impacts on my views, but the older I get the more I cannot imagine having horses shut in for any substantial amount of time. Our mini has EMS and had a bout of winter lami lately so he is currently in overnight (not the norm) and I absolutely hate it... knowing that he will stand there alone, essentially in a box, all night. He hates it too! I understand that many horses are accustomed to it and that stabling overnight is generally accepted and unavoidable for many horse owners, but no winter turnout or just a few hours per day seems absolutely wild to me.

I wonder how many behavioural and physical issues would be solved if horses could be out in the fresh air with their friends all day... moving around, grazing with their heads down, getting some sunshine and interacting with companions. I think it's fair to say that MOST people are doing their best with what they have but I think it's also true to say that SOME prioritise facilities and convenience over turnout. Then again, anybody who rides really prioritises their own needs over that of the horse I suppose.

 

[ycbm]

Unless a hard surfaced or under cover turnout pen is provided, most land in the UK is unusable in the depths of winter.

I'm not so sure about this, I've been on several areas on sand that had no problem being used all winter for at least daytime turnout, but still horses were kept in. One place did it to make hay, so pure economics to save them buying in hay. One place had no issues with mud but the paddocks were in use year round with no rest and they couldn't afford to trash the grass. I've also owned 10 acres of almost peat moorland on a hill at 1100 feet and the key there was radical understocking in winter. 3 horses max, in at night.

It's being precious about how fields look and over stocking that cause the two big problems I think.
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[ycbm]

It has become normalised to run a yard with horses in from Oct-May.

In my experience it always was. The big difference is that there was a better understanding of how much exercise full time stabled horses need. Though in 1985 I did turn down one yard where "exercise'" if you couldn't get there in daylight to hack was a 20 minute loose schooling spot with 3 other horses, in a tiny barn with telegraph poles down the middle to hold the roof up.

And now of course we understand that most of them need socialisation on top of exercise (yes even the ones that aren't safe in the same field need contact over a fence), and (no, it isn't "love" if your kept-alone horse comes running to the gate when it hears your car engine, it's desperation for company, any company. )
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[SO1]

The horses at our yard have been out every day regardless of the weather over the winter. There are 6 in Bert's group and they have three fields to move around in. The ground is well draining and hard core has been put round the gates.

Our hacking is not good but nowhere is perfect.

Bert came in looking like this on Sunday after the rain their communal rolling patch became nice and muddy ideal for a good roll whilst shedding their winter coats.

 

[Peglo]

My friend keeps her horses out 24/7 all year but she’s on sandy land and has use of several fields. Still the field they are usually in was in better nick all winter than mine were in September. She only lives 2-3 miles away from me.

Whilst hers prefer living out unrugged (they do get taken in in the worst of storms) mine would really struggle and you can often see them breath a sigh of relief to get in out of the wind some nights. I am conscious though of them standing in too long so they usually come in at 8 and out at 6 but I do like them coming in for somewhere dry to sleep and let their hooves dry out.
Ideally they would get on better and they could have an open barn but unfortunately, horses I do look forward to summer and 24/7 turnout and can never understand people who stable through the summer as well (I don’t mean folk who have horses with health conditions than need it for management but those who choose to take them in)

 

[Goldenstar]

I'm not so sure about this, I've been on several areas on sand that had no problem being used all winter for at least daytime turnout, but still horses were kept in. One place did it to make hay, so pure economics to save them buying in hay. One place had no issues with mud but the paddocks were in use year round with no rest and they couldn't afford to trash the grass. I've also owned 10 acres of almost peat moorland on a hill at 1100 feet and the key there was radical understocking in winter. 3 horses max, in at night.

It's being precious about how fields look and over stocking that cause the two big problems I think.
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It’s not precious to worry about your top soil if you live in an area where the top soil is sparse.
In Clay areas the microbes never recover from deep poaching and you destroy unique delicate little system when it happens .

 

[ycbm]

It’s not precious to worry about your top soil if you live in an area where the top soil is sparse.
In Clay areas the microbes never recover from deep poaching and you destroy unique delicate little system when it happens .

Sorry, I was referring to yards around here that won't allow turnout if there's been a drop of rain, won't allow hay in field and one in particular that makes people clear up their horses moulting winter coat from where they roll in paddocks on spring!
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[Clodagh]

The horses at our yard have been out every day regardless of the weather over the winter. There are 6 in Bert's group and they have three fields to move around in. The ground is well draining and hard core has been put round the gates.

Our hacking is not good but nowhere is perfect.

Bert came in looking like this on Sunday after the rain their communal rolling patch became nice and muddy ideal for a good roll whilst shedding their winter coats.
View attachment 157145

I’m sure you know, but he is terribly fat. Do be careful!

 

[SO1]

I’m sure you know, but he is terribly fat. Do be careful!

I can feel his ribs quite easily so he should not be that fat. Maybe it is the photo here is another he doesn't have a cresty neck and hip bones can be easily felt. There is not fat on his shoulders and the bones can be felt there. He is on soaked hay and worked 4-6 days a week. There is not enough grass for him to be muzzled and he only out for 7 or 8 hours I didn't realise he got overweight.

Will have to see what else I can do to get the weight off. It is difficult the weekends I am at my parents as my instructor who used to work Saturdays and could exercise can't any more as her mum is also ill. She helps with exercise during the week and can do 3/4 days and so he can get most week days covered but the weekends now tricky. . I am here at the weekends he can get 7 days exercise.

Our yard will shut at some point due to YO ill health so gods how I will manage them as I will need to try and find amother full livery yard where they soak hay and will put his muzzle on when there is grass and can exercise him. I actually think the good doer issue is so hard.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I can feel his ribs quite easily so he should not be that fat. Maybe it is the photo here is another he doesn't have a cresty neck and hip bones can be easily felt. There is not fat on his shoulders and the bones can be felt there. He is on soaked hay and worked 4-6 days a week. There is not enough grass for him to be muzzled and he only out for 7 or 8 hours I didn't realise he got overweight.

Will have to see what else I can do to get the weight off. It is difficult the weekends I am at my parents as my instructor who used to work Saturdays and could exercise can't any more as her mum is also ill. She helps with exercise during the week and can do 3/4 days and so he can get most week days covered but the weekends now tricky. . I am here at the weekends he can get 7 days exercise.

Our yard will shut at some point due to YO ill health so gods how I will manage them as I will need to try and find amother full livery yard where they soak hay and will put his muzzle on when there is grass and can exercise him. I actually think the good doer issue is so hard.
View attachment 157224

He also looks quite plump to me I'm afraid- it looks like he's got a bit of a crest (I can sympathise, once they have acquired one it's an uphill battle to get rid of it!) and his bottom looks very round. That might be the photo though, if you look from behind does he have an "apple" bottom? If so that would indicate he's carrying too much condition.
It's so difficult with the good doers, particularly if you don't have hours each day to exercise them- I feel sorry for my Dartmoor who spends most of her year in a starvation paddock, but I console myself with the thought that mum's pony is in the same boat, so she's at least got company on her perpetual diet!

 

[TheMule]

I can feel his ribs quite easily so he should not be that fat. Maybe it is the photo here is another he doesn't have a cresty neck and hip bones can be easily felt. There is not fat on his shoulders and the bones can be felt there. He is on soaked hay and worked 4-6 days a week. There is not enough grass for him to be muzzled and he only out for 7 or 8 hours I didn't realise he got overweight.

Will have to see what else I can do to get the weight off. It is difficult the weekends I am at my parents as my instructor who used to work Saturdays and could exercise can't any more as her mum is also ill. She helps with exercise during the week and can do 3/4 days and so he can get most week days covered but the weekends now tricky. . I am here at the weekends he can get 7 days exercise.

Our yard will shut at some point due to YO ill health so gods how I will manage them as I will need to try and find amother full livery yard where they soak hay and will put his muzzle on when there is grass and can exercise him. I actually think the good doer issue is so hard.
View attachment 157224

I honestly don’t think anyone can reliably judge your pony's weight from either photo you've posted here. Resting a hind leg really throws his whole look off and he isn’t stood with his neck in a normal position. If you're happy with him in the flesh then just keep an eye as we are coming into Spring grass.

 

[scats]

I have to admit that I thought he looked very fat at first, but on closer look I think it’s the way he is standing is making him look much rounder.
His body is tilted due to the resting leg and it’s giving a slightly odd perspective.

 

[Bob notacob]

I honestly don’t think anyone can reliably judge your pony's weight from either photo you've posted here. Resting a hind leg really throws his whole look off and he isn’t stood with his neck in a normal position. If you're happy with him in the flesh then just keep an eye as we are coming into Spring grass.

He looks fine to me. just watch that spring grass. PS Bob says he could join his herd any day , a good sort.

 

[JFTDWS]

I keep looking at the photo and wondering how that's "terribly fat" - because it doesn't look it to me. Not that I'd say he looks great, just that I don't think the angle / weirdness of the moment makes it impossible to judge.

Is this the horse version of blue / gold dress optical illusion that went round --a few years-- a decade ago?

 

[gallopingby]

The angle of the photo isn’t helpful. It would be much easier to gauge if he was standing square and his head wasn’t turned towards you. Always difficult to tell from a photo but the fact that he’s resting a leg and then twisting his head to look throws everything off balance. Maybe see if you can get someone to stand him up properly and then take a photo or you stand him and ask them to take the photo. He looks very kind.

 

[SEL]

I think he looks fine!