‘Most’ UK horses aren’t getting basic needs met - H&H Study

I’m very lucky that my yard allows grass turnout all year and no horse is turnout individually unless there is a medical issue or they have just arrived. If we have a spell of horrific weather and it’s genuinely too wet/icey/windy to turnout the yard owner spends up to 3 hours rotating all the horses into lanes with grass banks so they are still at least getting to freely move and graze for some time. She always encourages getting the horses out of the stable and the first question to any vet asking for box rest is “can they have a postage stamp paddock”

She doesn’t do their stables so it doesn’t add to her workload if they stay in, in fact it massively decreases it, but her ethos is they need to be out and I really appreciate that.

At home my lot stay out 24/7 bar when the weather is horrific and they are asking to come in themselves, they make it very clear when they want to come in and when they want out. I have to make them go out sometimes 😅

I think a lot of end of life care lacking is because people are very emotionally invested in keeping animals alive. It’s hard to be the one making the call to end a beloved animals life and until it is very clear it needs to happen it’s hard to do it.
 
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splashgirl45 said:
. If I had my own place with a decent amount of grazing I would like to have horses out 24/7 with large field shelters available so they could get out of the wind, rain, sun, flies etc if they wanted to but not many people would be able to afford to buy a large amount of land
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Even lots of land won’t necessarily do it. I had 6.5 acres this winter for 3 ponies - by February I had one field semi under water, one soaking wet and squelching, and 1.5 acres that were wet but draining. This was with 3 ponies out for six hours a day, on a hill, loam soil not clay.

My others in different places had 3 smallish young ones on an acre per horse which coped ok but is on sand (even so it was under water in places after each rain storm) and 3 with all weather turnout.

Up until winter 2023-4, I could have 6-7 ponies at home living out all winter and it never got bad. We didn’t need the stables at all.
 
This is where I list my gist earlier. Work is very busy and i really must get on. Bit regards to the Romania thread, when were in Malta on holiday we noticed all the fields were burnt brown, there was no greenery anywhere. TBF we were experiencing a 40c heatwave at the time, but do you think that has any bearing on why animals abroad don't go out, simply because there's nothing to eat? I have no idea of climate and grass growth in Romania.

BTW I know that doesn't negate the need to move and the freedom of the horse and I'm not trying to justify it. But maybe that is why?
 
@maya2008 “I think that as a country we are going to need to rethink winter turnout practices if the weather stays this wet.” I think perhaps we should actually think about whether we should keep horses at all if we do not have suitable land to keep them on. Putting a horse in a 12x12 box and letting them out for an hour or 2 is not, to me, ever acceptable. There is also the issue of taking ponies, that have been bred to live on scrubby hillsides and get thin in the winter, and putting them in lush fields of juicy grass. They then often have to live on starvation paddocks on their own or have a grazing muzzle on all the time or, back to the inexperienced owners point, they can get lovely and fat followed by lovely laminitis.

I look back with horror on how I used to keep my horses stabled for so much of the time. For my last few years of horse ownership they lived out all the time, without rugs and with access to field shelters with bedding and hay in them. Most people thought I was very cruel to do that.
 
Yes, a lot of emphasis needs to go onto livery yard owners to provide a better set-up, but livery has very low profit margins so that will make livery more expensive. If your grazing land isn’t suitable in the winter you provide hard standing or surfaced turnout areas instead. They’re very cheap compared to the cost of the horse walkers or extra arenas people seem to put up in preference.
If you must stable then I love the practice of adding a small outdoor pen to the stable. I personally think keeping horses in small groups in barns is much more appropriate for their needs, but this isn’t practical for every horse since we have created problems with horses being unable to socialize normally from years of isolation.
 
TheMule said:
If your grazing land isn’t suitable in the winter you provide hard standing or surfaced turnout areas instead. They’re very cheap compared to the cost of the horse walkers or extra arenas people seem to put up in preference.
If you must stable then I love the practice of adding a small outdoor pen to the stable. I
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Yes agree with this - surfaced TO areas are fairly straightforward compared with the fancy facilities that lots of places seem to offer. Thinking about it, we need to re-calibrate our (horse society's) general requirements of livery.

The practice of having TO pens attached to a stable seems to be much more common in Europe and the US. I like it too.
 
I'm another who learnt hands on with RS (across the world!) & dealers. Back then I just accepted a lot of what I saw and it definitely wasn't all fabulous.

I was at a clinic at a local RS recently and thought it was so sad that the riders have to wait in a pen until they are called forward for their lesson. No little girls scrabbling all over ponies brushing them senseless and learning how to tack up. A friend borrows a Shetland a few times a week so her little girl can learn all about the handling & grooming.

I've got around 6.5 acres for 3 but I struggled with 24.7 turnout this year it was so wet. When it's your own land though you can accept fields will be trashed - my horses would rather 6 hours of splashing around than being stuck in
 
ycbm said:
A long term poster on another thread defended the keeping of a horse in Romania, under a year old on its own, stabled at night, "turned out" in 5x15m during the day, still on its own, on the basis that people in other countries do things differently than we do, but it doesn't make it wrong.

It's a pretty frequent argument used, that other countries like Spain routinely keep their horses stabled full time. There's really no hope with attitudes like that around.
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Thats a difficult situation. Its someone from another country with very poor welfare conditions generally and they are asking for advice. We all know PTS is probably better, but they arent going to do that, so all people can do is advise.

Less than 10yrs ago I had someone offer me a space for my yearling colt. They advised to put him in the stable and board the top door shut so he couldn't get out and just chuck hay and bedding in through the bottom door. So its definitely still happening here. I reported them, but nothing ever seems to get done.

Some people just want a horse and want to ride and couldn't care less if they are too heavy, the horse isn't sound, it doesn't get proper turnout etc, etc. I'm not sure you can change the minds of people who have that mindset. They don't care and just choose not to see how awful it is.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
My yard doesn't have turnout from Oct to Mar as we have 10 horses on 10 acres, so if they make their fields look like the somme then we don't have anything to rotate on to let it recover. He copes with it just fine, they'd only be standing at the gate waiting to come in, plus he cost me too much money to risk soft tissue injury slipping and sliding. He has lots of hay and lickits to keep him entertained and goes on the walker every PM and other than being slightly more difficult to ride and having to be led to the walker in a chifney and chewing the wood on his stable door, and being grumpier to groom he's totally fine.

KIDDING - I would never do that to a horse, if I couldn't provide turnout he would be loaned to someone that can. However, I have read variations of that paragraph so many times, and it makes me feel thoroughly depressed every time.
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ycbm said:
You caught me out there, I was about to explode.
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Yes me too!! 😂 😂 😂 I was bl**dy seething and mentally preparing my sharp response, then realised who was posting and that it was a wind up. BP now dropping back to more acceptable levels! 😂😂
 
I don't plan on buying any more unless I have my own land and can guarantee a quality of life - i.e. turnout, either by good, well draining land (we have some on the current yard which doesn't get mud even in the worst winters), or by improving some the land with all weather surfacing.

I'm really lucky that my current yard is not overstocked and has lots of land, including some that is high, sandy and dry in winter, and some that is clay/ peat and grows like mad in the summer. When the current owners sell - and they will at some point as they're older and the adult kids don't want to take it on - I can't imagine it will stay as a livery yard. I'm just hoping that they will stick it out long enough for my lot to make it through most of their natural lives!
 
TheMule said:
Yes, a lot of emphasis needs to go onto livery yard owners to provide a better set-up, but livery has very low profit margins so that will make livery more expensive. If your grazing land isn’t suitable in the winter you provide hard standing or surfaced turnout areas instead. They’re very cheap compared to the cost of the horse walkers or extra arenas people seem to put up in preference.
If you must stable then I love the practice of adding a small outdoor pen to the stable. I personally think keeping horses in small groups in barns is much more appropriate for their needs, but this isn’t practical for every horse since we have created problems with horses being unable to socialize normally from years of isolation.
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very much this
someone mentioned the word "institutionalised" earlier. A terrible word but what we seem to be turning horses into in some livery yards. Live in a cage 23 hours a day, then out on the walker or perhaps endless ridden circles around the school.
we expect them to cope with that and not to object.
In fact the average guinea pig or hamster has a larger cage in proportion to it's size than a 17hh horse. At least the hamster has a wheel to play on at it's leisure.

One thing I really hate is seeing aerial views of American barns from the inside showing all the horses in their little boxes.

There is no problem with land shortage on many yards. There is plenty of land to be able to keep a reasonable number of horses in better circumstances. Also not all horses require identical living conditions on the same yard.

I appreciate the perils of putting horses out together and accidents but on track liveries a fair number of horses seem to wander around on relatively small areas without killing each other. So perhaps continual wandering keeps them calmer rather than bringing in, putting out when everyone tries to gallop, fight and damage each other. Plus of course the point in the quote about failure to socialise with other horses.

This forum identifies the problem nicely. We have posts of looking for a livery yard. Must have walker, indoor, outdoor, jumping paddock, lorry park, No one ever demands that the stables must be at least 16 x 16 and must open onto a large pen (or similar) and horses must have the chance to socialise in some way but not to worry if it doesn't have a school and all the rest of the facilities as the living accommodation is more important.

Open barns with outside areas will work for some groups. The same barn could be divided into say 4 so each horse has a quarter and is shut in. The outside school could be divided into 4 with a communal divided stable block in the middle.
So many things that could be done and so much space to do it. However it is the owners who still want their small stable but endless facilities.

I remember from my childhood a documentary, must have been late 60's, showing a large barn with a lot of horses living loose together. Shoes no doubt removed.
They were Harvey Smiths horses.
 
maya2008 said:
People have been bringing their animals in for the winter since medieval times. There are calves in barns all over my hacking routes and cows in cow sheds all winter long. They are in a group and can move around, but they are in all winter.

I think that as a country we are going to need to rethink winter turnout practices if the weather stays this wet. It is not good horse welfare to turn out on flooded fields or knee deep mud, and that is what we end up with in many parts of the country/soil types. The answer isn’t to insist on turnout on land that cannot take it - even at one horse per several acres - the answer is all weather pens and a lot more exercise. I was brought up with an understanding that a horse needs a minimum of two hours of exercise with splitting that into twice a day if sound and stabled for a period of time. I have had to do so on occasion and those horses stayed sane and happy. In the days before cars, horses were not turned out all winter but they were used as transport so they got out of that stall and moved all day. We cannot stick them in and not work them - and that is a casualty of modern working hours and a lack of education.

I have kept my ponies out 24/7 for nearly all my adult life. Last winter was horrific and the land could not take it. It led to horrible mud, one injured pony and general misery. This winter I sorted out the stables and used them. They went out every day and were ridden. The fields held up better so that time outside was enjoyable - no mud, grass all winter long. It cost a fortune but has been worth every penny.

The lack of suitable horses is a casualty of everyone wanting something for nothing. Why should I use my skills and time to train a horse from unbacked to nice allrounder, only to sell it at most for the cost of its keep for those training years? And where do I get the education to do that? Mine came from an ex dealer who had become injured and was teaching instead - but in the years since we moved away I have not met anyone else like her. She could take any horse and tell you exactly what was going on, what to do, how to develop them under saddle. Not just any fancy warmblood but literally anything sound with any conformation and prior training (or not). I spent every spare penny I had on lessons while we were there and I have never regretted it.

The rest of the knowledge lack? Insurance has a lot to answer for! You cannot hang around anywhere and help for free now due to fear of a liability claim, so if you do not come from a horsey family, how do you learn? For your average RS rider all I see is time on a horse and very little actual learning. It used to be bad but now seems even worse - months and hundreds of pounds to be unable to rise in balance at the trot or use the reins.

The answer to most of it is education - not that it is available or that people want to pay for it.
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Ive done the same. Invested in hardstanding for my youngsters, so they can be happy, live in a herd and be relatively mud free. Add to that ( i know ive said this a thousand times sorry ) my mares have had careers, retired sound , been xrayed before ive bred from them. Yet still people dont see the value in what i do.
Ive been shocked at the responses ive had on my 3yo. People just dont care, his dam is a 2nd generation homebred. I can tell you all about his grandma, his dam his maternal uncle and his full sister. His dam is a graded SHBGB mare, hes been graded. Ive tried my very best to product nice looking , nice tempered all round horses. Yet im still faced with ' my budget is £3k'

So for me im out. At this moment in time i see no reason to breed again.
 
Barn kept horses is, historically, common place in West Yorkshire. The riding schools attached to farms, all used that method of keeping horses and ponies in winter. There was also a great emphasis on daily turnout.
 
maya2008 said:
Even lots of land won’t necessarily do it. I had 6.5 acres this winter for 3 ponies - by February I had one field semi under water, one soaking wet and squelching, and 1.5 acres that were wet but draining. This was with 3 ponies out for six hours a day, on a hill, loam soil not clay.

My others in different places had 3 smallish young ones on an acre per horse which coped ok but is on sand (even so it was under water in places after each rain storm) and 3 with all weather turnout.

Up until winter 2023-4, I could have 6-7 ponies at home living out all winter and it never got bad. We didn’t need the stables at all.
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I was thinking more like 50 to 100 acres with grazing which isn’t too rich so they could spend a lot of time foraging similar to how wild horses live . It’s highly unlikely that sort of set up would be available anywhere close to shops etc so quite difficult for the people to live comfortably
 
Clodagh said:
BITD people bred from a mare because she was a fabulous hunter/workhorse/useful animal. You may have used an HIS stallion. You ended up with usually the perfect cross, not too big, sound as a pound and level headed.
But now people want an 18hh ultra flexi warmblood that looks super cool.add that to really poor management and it’s a perfect storm.
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Actually loads of people want the former horse the issue is they not bred in the number they where and people end buying the less good examples of the latter horse after the super talented ones have gone off at huge money ..
 
I've just been telling my horses how bleddy lucky they are. But the Appy has been reacquainted with her muzzle so currently looks like she could kill me.

They ARE lucky though! Year round turnout (nearly all 24.7), vets when needed, their own bodyworker, expensive saddles regularly checked, a shoe bill most girls would be proud of and a nutritionally balanced diet.

In return they have to lug me around (well 2/3 do) but I'm lightweight, have regular physio and good instruction. Their lives could be a lot worse.

But they just want access to the summer fields and are itching to moan to the RSPCA
 
In terms of accommodation, mine much prefer our home stables which have half height walls in a barn, to my friend’s standard outdoor stabling setup. My little gelding told me it was cruelty to ponies when I popped him in at my friend’s yard (for one whole night!) and he couldn’t see his sister while in his stable.

We have tried free access to the barn and it works if there is no food in there. But otherwise walls/roof supports get damaged and ponies get kicked. They really do prefer their own space when there is hay involved, with grooming access as required. Our stables are enormous - roughly the size of two standard stables - there is more than enough space to move away from an annoying friend over your wall, and best buddies get their haynets tied up next to each other so they can chat and eat.

The most enthusiastic stable (and rug!) users in my herd are those who were once wild. Spending winters foraging for whatever there might be on Dartmoor or the New Forest makes a pony appreciate luxury when it turns up apparently! They are also the ones who alert me to any fencing breaks and actively keep everyone else IN the field. They know where the food comes from…and what life is like without a constant supply. I do think people romanticise wild life and imagine it to be more comfortable than it is. Tooth rasping, rugs and endless forage/water have been high on the list of my ponies’ favourite things about being tame!

In terms of fulfilling the movement need, mine have greatly enjoyed access to an arena this year. In previous years when the weather was not so very very wet, we could still canter a bit and definitely trot out hacking all winter. This year we had mud…more mud… forestry hardcore or roads. A good run in the arena and the opportunity to move fast without risking injury was very welcome to all.
 

maya2008 said:
a lot more exercise. I was brought up with an understanding that a horse needs a minimum of two hours of exercise with splitting that into twice a day if sound and stabled for a period of time. I have had to do so on occasion and those horses stayed sane and happy. In the days before cars, horses were not turned out all winter but they were used as transport so they got out of that stall and moved all day. We cannot stick them in and not work them - and that is a casualty of modern working hours and a lack of education.
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we are certainly going to have to have a rethink over our wetter winters but looking at the question of exercise. In the past when there was a lot less money, less schools and less traffic then exercise meant going out hacking. It was interesting and exciting for the horse to see different things, to charge around through a bit of forest or to have a blow out up a hill. They saw the countryside, met people/other riders. That was a bit of interest and excitement in their day.

Now that quality exercise for some has been replaced by the walker and a few laps of the school.
What are they meant to see or get stimulated by. The horse who had been out for his hack was probably tired by the time he got home and happy to snooze.

Now we seem to have a lot of "my horse won't/doesn't like hacking"


maya2008 said:
The most enthusiastic stable (and rug!) users in my herd are those who were once wild. Spending winters foraging for whatever there might be on Dartmoor or the New Forest makes a pony appreciate luxury when it turns up apparently! They are also the ones who alert me to any fencing breaks and actively keep everyone else IN the field. They know where the food comes from…and what life is like without a constant supply. I do think people romanticise wild life and imagine it to be more comfortable than it is. Tooth rasping, rugs and endless forage/water have been high on the list of my ponies’ favourite things about being tame!
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so funny. Mine totally agree. My little mare now 40 plus was around 30 when she came to us after a lifetime on Dartmoor. She is the first one at the field gate winter or summer to come in, rugged, she doesn't like either the cold or the flies, grub comes in a bucket twice a day, bin of hay and a bin of horsehage and her stable. All totally non negotiable.

My yard gate separates my domestic horses from the ferals, they can look over it and touch the ferals. All she has to do is to walk through it to get back to her old life. Not interested.
 
SEL said:
But they just want access to the summer fields and are itching to moan to the RSPCA
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Exactly. Being denied the ability to eat themselves into a very sugary early grave is grounds for a severe complaint!! Or, a great sigh of resignation from my older one, as he is used to my ridiculous restrictions now.
 
Equally my NF, who came off the Forest, has a meltdown if a stable door is shut on him, and doesn't even really like a closed-in shelter, although I don't know when or why he acquired this trait. He's ok with his pole barn, built specifically without walls for a delicate flower....
 
scats said:
The irony being that there’s also a thread running where someone wants to keep a Shetland in a garden and everyone is dead against it.
The world is weird to me.
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is this one still going?? after the first few replies i didn’t bother keeping up with that one!
 
It’s priorities as well.

The posh yard near us has around 4 acres of hardstanding areas. And horses standing in heavy clay upto their knees and no forage. Or in stables 24/7. Or on a horse walker.

The hardstanding is all lorry park, used one day a week for shows and empty the rest. A lot of it is already fenced. As they hard cored over some of their driest paddocks to make the parking.

I know what I’d be doing with it the rest of the time.
 
paddy555 said:
Now we seem to have a lot of "my horse won't/doesn't like hacking"
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The nature of hacking has changed dramatically though.

Roads are busier, traffic is faster, drivers seemingly more idiotic. Not everyone has access to off-road hacking - bridleways vary by region and increasinly don't join up to make safe routes (e.g. end at a dual carriageway with no option other than to turn back). The growing population and the explosion in dog ownership means that in manny places, hacking is shared with out of control dogs - hence the frequency of horses being chased by dogs onto roads / dog attacks lately (and the XL bully problem makes that even more alarming). Throw in illegal drone and trail bike usage - which is a problem in local forestry - and hacking really isn't as appealing or accessible as it was historically.

Plus there are more and more horses who aren't in work because that they are broken - whether that's a breeding issue or an improved diagnostic issue or something else.

The solution to the horse welfare problem isn't in work alone.
 
Goldenstar said:
Actually loads of people want the former horse the issue is they not bred in the number they where and people end buying the less good examples of the latter horse after the super talented ones have gone off at huge money ..
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My first horse- who I took on loan in 1986 (!) - was TB mum and Welsh dad. She was just perfect - could do a nice dressage test and was a lovely hack. I never see anything like her for sale now. She was happiest living out and when I first had her she was in a field half the size of Hampshire. The herd was enormous as the yard was run by the local Pony Club leader. If you'd put her in a tiny paddock on her own she would probably have shot herself.
 
maya2008 said:
In terms of accommodation, mine much prefer our home stables which have half height walls in a barn, to my friend’s standard outdoor stabling setup. My little gelding told me it was cruelty to ponies when I popped him in at my friend’s yard (for one whole night!) and he couldn’t see his sister while in his stable.

We have tried free access to the barn and it works if there is no food in there. But otherwise walls/roof supports get damaged and ponies get kicked. They really do prefer their own space when there is hay involved, with grooming access as required. Our stables are enormous - roughly the size of two standard stables - there is more than enough space to move away from an annoying friend over your wall, and best buddies get their haynets tied up next to each other so they can chat and eat.

The most enthusiastic stable (and rug!) users in my herd are those who were once wild. Spending winters foraging for whatever there might be on Dartmoor or the New Forest makes a pony appreciate luxury when it turns up apparently! They are also the ones who alert me to any fencing breaks and actively keep everyone else IN the field. They know where the food comes from…and what life is like without a constant supply. I do think people romanticise wild life and imagine it to be more comfortable than it is. Tooth rasping, rugs and endless forage/water have been high on the list of my ponies’ favourite things about being tame!

In terms of fulfilling the movement need, mine have greatly enjoyed access to an arena this year. In previous years when the weather was not so very very wet, we could still canter a bit and definitely trot out hacking all winter. This year we had mud…more mud… forestry hardcore or roads. A good run in the arena and the opportunity to move fast without risking injury was very welcome to all.
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I have half walls, well I did until I sold the internals stables due to lack of use. They are all now in gated sheds, that I can subdivide with electric fencing bungee cord, the gluttons get round bale straw and a pile of hay each plus one. The ones that need more forage have round bale hay, and a straw bed which they tend to eat. As they have something available to eat all the time, they very rarely squabble above flattened ears. Most of the floor is earth or Mudmats and not bedding all of it down has been a revelation, they lie and urinate on the straw area, and you can just scrape the muck off the earth floor. They have about an acre turnout over winter because we are on clay, but they spend by choice most of the time in the shed.
Good sheds are expensive but I think they are better off housed open like store cattle, with half walls with wind blinds. I hate the 12x12 cells with a passion.
 
JFTDWS said:
The nature of hacking has changed dramatically though.

Roads are busier, traffic is faster, drivers seemingly more idiotic. Not everyone has access to off-road hacking - bridleways vary by region and increasinly don't join up to make safe routes (e.g. end at a dual carriageway with no option other than to turn back). The growing population and the explosion in dog ownership means that in manny places, hacking is shared with out of control dogs - hence the frequency of horses being chased by dogs onto roads / dog attacks lately (and the XL bully problem makes that even more alarming). Throw in illegal drone and trail bike usage - which is a problem in local forestry - and hacking really isn't as appealing or accessible as it was historically.

Plus there are more and more horses who aren't in work because that they are broken - whether that's a breeding issue or an improved diagnostic issue or something else.

The solution to the horse welfare problem isn't in work alone.
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that is absolutely true the solution isn't in work alone but it is a fair part of it. Is walking around on a walker or going round a school good enough from the horse's mental POV? Possibly if the horse is out at grass or on a track etc being a horse for long periods. If confined to stabling for large amounts of time then it is very questionable if mentally it is sufficient.
 
I'm quite concerned about having to move any time as at the moment I have great support, 24/7 turnout in interesting fields with natural features and an arena most of the time and nice hacking. The problem being I have a full on job so I need assistance but most places don't do field full livery or something similar AND have somewhere and some people to ride with. You've either got full retirement livery or basic DIY rent a field.
I do feel a bit bad for my pony thought as she came from 70 acres of hill grazing.
 
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