1st time owner - pony not as advertised

[honetpot]

I think some of you need to wind your necks in a bit. Some responses on here are really quite shocking!

I think realistic.

Equines are herd animals, they form social bonds that help protect themsleves. If you see two resting , there is often one guard, and a more experienced pony, who may not appear dominant will often lead that little group. When you move a pony out a group, it has to rely on its self for defense so becomes more alert. You nice paddock or stable which to you seems safe is just something that prevents them from either seeing or running away from danger. Put a pony in an established group, it will try and make a space in that group. Mares are often herd leaders and a gelding trying to establish it self may fight or mount it, its not a about reproduction, its more about showing, not dominance, that is too crude a word, social standing.
By continuing to change the 'herd' , its a bit like changing school class mates in a new school, it never gets to settle, and although it may not look stressed to you, it will be, and more alert. A good judge is muscle tone, tension shows the fear, fight reflex, and facial expression long before they do anything.
I buy young animals that often have had several homes, and buy them cheap because the are a ''problem', they are not, the 'naughtier' they are the more they are isolated on a yard. The easiest solution is to turn them out with a new friend in a strange to both of them paddock with a bit of grass, and just let them be. Even better if the companion pony is well educated to stable life, and let the new pony learn from them, and bring them in as a couple. When they are them added together a larger group they have a buddy, at their back. I have never known this not to work.
You can never really change a horse, you just become more expert at avoiding or working around a problem, until its not a problem.

 

[LouWood23]

As an update ...

Had our 1st equine behaviourist appt today and they told me to put them both back in together.

We observed their behaviour and pixie squirted lots and he mounted her but was no chase and she stood for him. They did this 2 or 3 times and it settled.

She thinks Bryn is very stressed from being moved lots and she gave me techniques to just build trust with him.

He is very scared of the lead rope and she thinks he has a bad memory related to that and being caught and probably sees that as a negative thing - moving homes or the unknown.

I've been advised to not catch him at the moment and just build up trust using certain techniques using positive reinforcement and get to the point he willingly follows me.

Feeling more positive today even though its not the pony I thought I was buying I now have something to work on and I genuinely feel so sorry for him. He doesn't bite or kick he is just plain scared.

 

[AmyMay]

Has your vet looked at him?

 

[LouWood23]

Has your vet looked at him?

No, not yet, why you ask?

 

[gallopingby]

Anyway I came on here for some support and advice and I've came away feeling like most people are having a go at me rather than trying to offer me advice that can help.

I don't see the point of looking backwards at this point. Yes, I've made mistakes but no ones perfect and that's what makes us human.

Thanks

One of the problems about asking for help/support from people who don’t know you means exactly that! They don’t know you or your situation. The more people you ask the more opinions you’ll get and they’ll be widely differing because some of the replies / opinions will be from people who are very experienced and know what they’re talking about and others will put their two pennies worth in and won’t have a clue. Better to stick with advice from one or two people and follow it than to keep coming back for more.

 

[LouWood23]

One of the problems about asking for help/support from people who don’t know you means exactly that! They don’t know you or your situation. The more people you ask the more opinions you’ll get and they’ll be widely differing because some of the replies / opinions will be from people who are very experienced and know what they’re talking about and others will put their two pennies worth in and won’t have a clue. Better to stick with advice from one or two people and follow it than to keep coming back for more.

I am now following the advise from a equine behaviourist from today so will be taking their guidance going forward.

Thanks

 

[AmyMay]

No, not yet, why you ask?

Well I think it would be interesting to get his take on the situation with regards to his potential stallion like behaviour. It’s also a good idea generally to get a once over done on a pony/horse that’s not been vetted.

 

[meleeka]

As an update ...

Had our 1st equine behaviourist appt today and they told me to put them both back in together.

We observed their behaviour and pixie squirted lots and he mounted her but was no chase and she stood for him. They did this 2 or 3 times and it settled.

She thinks Bryn is very stressed from being moved lots and she gave me techniques to just build trust with him.

He is very scared of the lead rope and she thinks he has a bad memory related to that and being caught and probably sees that as a negative thing - moving homes or the unknown.

I've been advised to not catch him at the moment and just build up trust using certain techniques using positive reinforcement and get to the point he willingly follows me.

Feeling more positive today even though its not the pony I thought I was buying I now have something to work on and I genuinely feel so sorry for him. He doesn't bite or kick he is just plain scared.

That was quick. Good that you managed to bring the appointment forward 2 weeks.

 

[Winters100]

My friend breeds minis amd does have a 34in mare we can have for free (but unbacked) to take his place but leaves us with no ridden ponies.

I think you have made some mistakes, but we all do along the way, and you have been unlucky.

Regarding the unbacked mare to me it is a terrible idea. She needs someone experienced to give her the right education, and I don't think she is right for you.

I doubt that there is one long term horse owner who has not, at some point, purchased a horse who is just not a good fit. I know I have. In these cases you need to look at it with your head, not your heart. If you solved the various issues would you trust the pony around your 3 year old? For me the answer would be a clear 'no', therefore in your position I would sell. You have an offer which leaves your 700 pounds out of pocket, but 700 pounds is soon spent once you start buying in outside help, not to mention the regular costs of keeping a pony.

In your shoes I would sell, and ask the charity who your mare came from if they have one needing a temporary winter home as a companion. In the Spring I would start with the pony club, chat to the other Mum's, see if anyone has an outgrown LR pony to sell or loan. You also need proper advice. We don't do an exam before buying horses, so the fact that someone owns a horse does not necessarily make them very knowledgable. It needs to be someone who has many years experience of owning, buying and selling different horses, and who will come and see the pony with you and advise upon every step.

Remember that owning a pony is going to be no fun at all if you are constantly feeling that you have to worry about every interaction with your child, and in the end not owning a pony is very much easier than owning the wrong one.

I know that many others feel that you should not move the pony on again so soon. To me this really does not matter. It does not sound as if he is settled where he is, so moving is hardly taking much from him. If he goes to an experienced home where he is turned out with geldings he may just go back to the pony that you were expecting, and in the meantime you can find something that better suits you and your set up.

Don't dwell on your mistakes and beat yourself up, what matters now is to find the most sensible course of action for both you, your child and the pony, and move on.

Good luck.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The fact that he doesn't bite or kick even when frightened is a huge plus to me. My sister's gelding will definitely kick, think he has been chased a few too many times to try and make him go on under saddle. Sounds as though with sensible calm handling he will become what you want. Good luck.

 

[ycbm]

I'm really sorry but I think your behaviourist has taken serious risks here with the advice given.

Please don't underestimate the ability of him mounting your filly to cause damage even if she is willing.

Nasty, dangerous bites to the neck and hoof injuries to the bum are common and can be serious. Pelvis/SI injuries can also happen, and if he approaches her on a day she's not willing she could break his leg or present you with a vet bill which would swamp a £700 loss.

I had a riggy gelding who would mount mares and he injured my friend's willing mare causing a haematoma that blemished her for the rest of her life.

I'm with Winters on this, with a tiny child in the mix you would be well advised to take the offer on the table and cut your losses.
.

 

[Asha]

A bit late to this one . So forgive me if I’m saying what others have . But here’s my two pennies worth
I’m Disgusted that the sellers failed to tell you that he was an ex breeding stallion . Especially as you were buying for a 3 yo toddler ! What is the matter with people .
As much as I feel sorry for the little fella being passed around , theres no way on earth I’d have a child of that age on an ex breeding stallion no matter the size .
Little hooves can still hurt and it’s too much of a risk with a small family .
In your shoes I’d take the offer and sell him .
Sorry you are in this position, but take the hit and move on

 

[maya2008]

I would also not let him mount her. My old mare was damaged from being mounted (sore back, scrapes down side) as were others in her herd, when in with a gelding who liked to do this. A friend has had a similar experience.

Either a) sell mini mare and get a gelding companion.

Or

b) sell this chap to an experienced gelding only home and loan a mare.

 

[Landcruiser]

My two penn'orth is take the offer and cut your losses, chalk it up to a combination of mis selling, bad luck (with the previous owner out of the country and not able to have him back), and prudence (you need to keep your child safe above all else). So many of us have made much worse "mistakes" than you when buying horses, and even the best can turn out not as you hoped. Mistakes are what we learn best from, and each mistake teaches you something new, as does each horse you meet. I'd take the lessons learned here as bonuses (expensive ones), and move on. My worst mistake was buying my first horse with my heart rather than my head, believing the seller, allowing her vet to vet him, and NOT taking an experienced person with me...all massive errors, and very financially expensive over the 15 years I owned the old bugger until he recently had to be PTS- but he taught me an incredible amount of stuff that only he could have done. Even these few weeks will have taught you many things, OP x

 

[Kaylum]

Do not let your shetland mount any mare. If he decides to chase and mount a mare when your child is riding,as well as all the risks mentioned. One kick is all it takes for a broken leg.

I would have him blood tested ASAP.

As said the behaviourist took serious risks and their advice is very concerning. I hope they are well insured if they are giving out that kind of advice.

I am quite shocked by this.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Global herbs do a supplement called rig calm, used to use it for my Welsh D who was way too interested in ladies (no mounting or anything but couldn't be turned out next to them or he'd just gaze adoringly over the fence and refuse to be caught) so this may be worth a try, however your little ones safety is your biggest priority. I also viewed a yard once and as soon as they said it was mixed turn out decided no way as while he didn't show true riggy behaviour such as mounting etc, the fact he was so fixated when merely turned out next to them decided it wasn't worth the aggro to actually be in with them - it may have been fine but it's likely it wouldn't

He also wasn't good oriented, and was generally hit and miss re catching - if he didn't want to be caught he'd have a right laugh at you, completely ignoring food, letting you get just close enough to reach for the headcollar thinking that was it before running backwards and beating a hasty retreat. We would also have to resort to herding on occasion. I've heard of leaving a short cut off leadrope attached to the field safe headcollar of one that's iffy to catch but was always worried he'd stand on it but could be worth a shot? Do it supervised first? I'm out of horses now and won't ever get back into them but if I were to have done excellent to catch would be top of my priorities it's infuriating!

As said, your child's safety is the utmost priority, could you get an experienced person to come over and see what they make of his behaviour/ handle him to see what he does with them?

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I’m coming late to this but am also stunned by the behaviourist’s advice, as others have said, one or both of your ponies could end up seriously hurt by this behaviour, not to mention your son if Bryn chose to mount another child’s pony whilst ridden.

@LouWood23 how are things now with the pair?

 

[Pinkvboots]

I'm also shocked that a behaviourist thinks that it's OK for geldings to just mount mares when they feel like it, what awful advice I wouldn't just leave the pony in with the mare I wouldn't be using this person again either.

 

[Orangehorse]

OP, I have had ponies and horses for over 60 years. Even the most experienced person can make a mistake and buy the wrong animal - we've all done it. Even after all this time, every single animal I have known teaches me something, and then you apply it to the next one and you gather quite a lot of knowledge in this way - but there is still lots to be learnt!

The sellers who didn't tell you that the pony had just been gelded after being a "working" stallion take the biggest blame. How could they sell the pony to someone with a small child, it is beyond belief.

But the safety of your small child is the most important thing, so take whatever is the most appropriate action to make your pony owning times happy ones.

 

[Bob notacob]

I think realistic.

Equines are herd animals, they form social bonds that help protect themsleves. If you see two resting , there is often one guard, and a more experienced pony, who may not appear dominant will often lead that little group. When you move a pony out a group, it has to rely on its self for defense so becomes more alert. You nice paddock or stable which to you seems safe is just something that prevents them from either seeing or running away from danger. Put a pony in an established group, it will try and make a space in that group. Mares are often herd leaders and a gelding trying to establish it self may fight or mount it, its not a about reproduction, its more about showing, not dominance, that is too crude a word, social standing.
By continuing to change the 'herd' , its a bit like changing school class mates in a new school, it never gets to settle, and although it may not look stressed to you, it will be, and more alert. A good judge is muscle tone, tension shows the fear, fight reflex, and facial expression long before they do anything.
I buy young animals that often have had several homes, and buy them cheap because the are a ''problem', they are not, the 'naughtier' they are the more they are isolated on a yard. The easiest solution is to turn them out with a new friend in a strange to both of them paddock with a bit of grass, and just let them be. Even better if the companion pony is well educated to stable life, and let the new pony learn from them, and bring them in as a couple. When they are them added together a larger group they have a buddy, at their back. I have never known this not to work.
You can never really change a horse, you just become more expert at avoiding or working around a problem, until its not a problem.

What a good answer!

 

[Bob notacob]

Herd dynamics are amazing. Bob is essentially herd leader .Not by choice but clearly was voted on in his absence. He has a henchman Oliver for want of a better word , who is required to investigate newcomers. Faster and more agile (and editors note from Bob, always banging on about his TB ancestors, which gets right up my nose)Bob watches . Has the newcomer any good moves, Is Oliver going to get a good hiding (Win Win), is he a danger. Bob also has a 2IC . Next in command , who nearly had a nervous breakdown when Bob was on Box rest. I kid you not.

 

[LouWood23]

Hi sorry didn't realise I had all these replies.

The two ponies have been living together unseperated now for about 2 weeks. The mounting only happend for the moment theyvwere reintroduced and it calmed down and think I've seen it happen once in those 2 weeks.

Bryn is still hard to catch but has settled much more and is approaching us and seems more relaxed.

I have been so anxious about it all but as things have settled down I have decided to give it some more time - even for the winter to pass and review in spring.

My son hasn't been riding him during this time and if we get to spring and no further forward then we will sell on Bryn knowing we have given him a good 7 months.

The offer on the table was gone the following day as they found another shetland Gelding companion.

 

[Micky]

I think you’ve done the right thing, some ponies do take a while to settle down in their new home. Our old section A took yonks to settle, I had to leave a headcollar on her, and it ended up she took to my daughter catching her and handling her, she was nervous of adults, but she did come round after several months of perseverance. Put all your nervous energy down into your boots and into the ground when going to handle him, catch him or anything to do with him. Don’t be afraid of gently throwing carrots or whatever on the floor for him to realise you’re trustworthy, any little tricks to help him and you settle with each other. Good luck.

 

[LouWood23]

I think you’ve done the right thing, some ponies do take a while to settle down in their new home. Our old section A took yonks to settle, I had to leave a headcollar on her, and it ended up she took to my daughter catching her and handling her, she was nervous of adults, but she did come round after several months of perseverance. Put all your nervous energy down into your boots and into the ground when going to handle him, catch him or anything to do with him. Don’t be afraid of gently throwing carrots or whatever on the floor for him to realise you’re trustworthy, any little tricks to help him and you settle with each other. Good luck.

Every day we are making progress and he will come and approach me most often - things very settled between him and my mare now so just hoping with time and love he will come good!

 

[Fire sign]

Sell the pony on if you can , he’s not suitable for a small child .. you made a mistake , it’s no big deal .. he’ll be fine in a companion type home , life is too short xx

 

[LouWood23]

Sell the pony on if you can , he’s not suitable for a small child .. you made a mistake , it’s no big deal .. he’ll be fine in a companion type home , life is too short xx

Thanks for your comment.

I am giving him some time to settle and see if he comes good. I have someone willing to take him on if not. He's been moved on 5 times in 6 months so he is owed some time if nothing else.

 

[Birker2020]

Have you spoken to your vet to see if there’s anything they can do to help - ie some sort of chemical intervention that might help calm his stallion tendencies down?

Potassium bromide?. My 'riggy' WB horse who was gelded aged 7 was given depo provera which was unlicensed for use in horses but thus was 2001 so it might be licensed now.

 

[Birker2020]

I think rig behaviour can result from bad gelding, leaving tissue behind that still produces the hormones.
.

Yes you are right YCBM, there is a 'true rig' which is as you describe and has retained testicular tissue.

Then there is a 'false rig' whose behaviour is not related to the amount of testosterone in his body, it's just learned behaviour, a bit like a bitch will try to mount another bitch or dog. Not un order to recreate but because it has seen male dogs do the same.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Having had a TB who could change from 99% easy to raging stallion if a mare become within sight, could be fields away but once he knew one was around he became a complete headache.
Based on that, my suggestion would be split them completely for a few weeks minimum. I think you may see results. At which point I guess you’d need to make a decision as to where you go from then. It would give you a clearer idea of what the issue is though.


edited- just saw your update! Good news

 

[Fjord]

Glad to see the update is positive! I hope he comes round and learns to trust you, it sounds like he is heading in the right direction.